'Slower' pvp, more hp - gear vs. skill

[skakruk]

Blizz has stated they want to 'slow pvp down' by increasing the healthpool and scaling down healing a bit.

So I was wondering... Lets presume Bob has good pvp gear and can inflict and mitigate more damage than Jack who is poorly geared. Even though Jack might be more 'skilled' wont the change benefit Bob more? Just a thought - would like to hear what you guys think of it. :-\

[Coldkil]

tbh, i find this change interesting. as a rogue, my real only issue is that failing a CC (yeah my mistake, but who doesn't commit them) means 99% the enemy healed to full hp in 2 seconds.

when cataclysm comes, hp pools will raise anywway. less damages and healing means longer matches, but no more endless kiting against healers that heal themselves full and don't go oom.

[TeHypno]

It already is like this tbh, full relentless ret paladin whos stacking only str or str/sta gems and ap/crit enchants has almost if not over 30k health. Someone who just starts gearing up for pvp and has low pve gear, cant beat the paladin.

[Bj0rn]

I'd say this change feels like it benefits Bob more than Jack tbh... Even if damage/healing is lowered, Bob still does more of it than Jack, while having more hp and resiliance... means he leaves more room for errors, so even if Jack plays flawlessly Bob would still win imo

[Deleted]

So?

The question seems more like if it benefits a geared guy over a non-geared guy.

The two woulden't even be playing, cause Jack would never get the rating to meet bob. The comparison is senseless. Its like whining that the tier10 has gotten better Set bonuses than T7, due to Jack only being in T7 and not able to compete as it is.

Stop the stupid comparisons, the change will affect everyone equally.

[Arka90]

I'm pretty sure they also stated that the stats on gear won't increase as much between every tier/season of gear. The gear item levels increased too quickly when having 2-3 of each tier and they still wanted it to be a noticable differance when increasing your gear, making the item levels in wotlk going a bit out of hand. They didn't want to repeat this misstake in cataclysm.

But, I do agree that it would help Bob more than it would help Jack. However, with higher HP pools compared to damage (longer games), the chance that a less skilled person will win over one that's more skilled (in same gear) by just dumb luck with RNG is also reduced by a lot. Example: If it takes 10 crits in a row to kill someone, the chance of that happening is lower than if it only required 5 crits in a row.

I'm kinda looking forward to cataclysm. It's seems like it's going to be a lot like arena back in TBC, just that they have removed a lot of the RNG shit. Remember geting mace stuned to death, or a warrior geting 2-3 sword procs and a WF proc at the same time and 1-shoted ya?

[Craz]

The two woulden't even be playing, cause Jack would never get the rating to meet bob. The comparison is senseless.

Sorry but I've played a few chars in hateful and get matched vs ppl in 4/5l relentless sometimes with pieces of 258 pve gear. It's sad that we are in the same mmr bracket when we have way more skill, but they get the same ratings only because their gear is carrying them.

It doesn't matter how bad you are at pvp, if you have item 245-258 in every slot you will generally beat the players who are really good but in item 200-226. Because all the geared team has to do is land 1-2 cc and they will kill one of you.

Have you seen geared destro locks down players instantly from 100%? All they have to do is immolate + chaos bolt + conflag. They could add in curse of elements or a fear, but they honestly don't need to. With felhunter *auto casting* spell lock because they are so bad, they can easily win due to gear alone. Don't tell me you can LoS the warlock because it's not always possible... you know that map with pillars randomly going up and down? Yeah good luck LoSing.

[Arka90]

Have you seen geared destro locks down players instantly from 100%? All they have to do is immolate + chaos bolt + conflag. They could add in curse of elements or a fear, but they honestly don't need to. With felhunter *auto casting* spell lock because they are so bad, they can easily win due to gear alone. Don't tell me you can LoS the warlock because it's not always possible... you know that map with pillars randomly going up and down? Yeah good luck LoSing.

Have to agree on that one. As late as last week we came up against the highest rated destro lock + frost mage + resto shaman team on our server. Our pally gets poly'ed, I miss deep freeze with spell reflect (yay for latency), mage ice lances spell reflect off me. Warlock does immolate + chaos bolt + conflagulate, mage does frostbolt + ice lance and shaman does flame shock + lava burst, with all the last spells hiting within 1 second of each other. This pretty much resulted in me going from 25k to dead (in defensive stance) even though our resto shaman managed to get a NS + HW on me before I died. I took more than 35k dmg in less than 1 second.

[Deleted]

it means that RNG or just 1 silly mistake won't lead you to losing your precious arena rating. Implementing rated BGs is a much bigger step towards this ofc, but the bigger health pools and less dps/healing is also a great addition.
I'd also say that Jack the skilled will have a much bigger advantage.
I mean look at the current PvP: random guy comes and 3 shots you, there's next to no skill involved.
If you have to play mana wars however, managing CC and doing as big as possible constant damage instead of silly bursts is much harder. Considering this, go PuG a 5man or a raid and you'll see how many suckers there are that own in PvP just because of this.

As a conclusing, skill WILL matter more, and that's a GOOD thing.
Also, PvP will once again feel... epic ?

[Keh]

The two woulden't even be playing, cause Jack would never get the rating to meet bob. The comparison is senseless. Its like whining that the tier10 has gotten better Set bonuses than T7, due to Jack only being in T7 and not able to compete as it is.

Stop the stupid comparisons, the change will affect everyone equally.

He didn't set a specific scenario (ie Arena which your presuming he is talking about) and didn't make a comparison either. He asked a question and readers opinions. This should simply be applied to any scenario. Lets say your a fresh 80 few pvp pieces but you might be really experienced in your class and other class's in general.. it simply should not be a case of someone who just ebayed to run up and face roll you in 2/3 buttons due to gear. He is asking if we feel this change may now 'fix' this situation and how we all feel about it.

Personally, quite looking forward too it. Something needs done to stop the endless heal/kiting of DPS (mostly outside Arenas) and others simply being able to blap you in 3 buttons/2 stuns. (generally with the kiting healers behind them!) I try to turn to PvP for fun but mostly end up frustrated at how unbalanced most scenarios turn out.

[Krypt]

It should favour the more skilled player over the more geared players. If fights/duels take longer the more skilled player will be better at controlling the more geared player. Let's take a random example of well geared DK and highly skilled Rogue. In wotlk the dk could just spam heartstrike a few times and the rogue would die, hopefully, in cataclysm a few facerolls woun't be enough to kill someone leaving the rogue plenty of time to CC and control the dk.

Not a perfect example i know, but the point remains!

My only concern is we end up with resto druid/melee comps that have 30 mins matches...

[Deleted]

Maybe make resilience to reduce healing done/received, making stacking craptons of resi a two-edged sword? Isn't that what Blizzard always wants, to force people to make "choices"...

[Grunthunter]

Who is Jack and where can i find Bob

[Skiball]

it means that RNG or just 1 silly mistake won't lead you to losing your precious arena rating. Implementing rated BGs is a much bigger step towards this ofc, but the bigger health pools and less dps/healing is also a great addition.
I'd also say that Jack the skilled will have a much bigger advantage.
I mean look at the current PvP: random guy comes and 3 shots you, there's next to no skill involved.
If you have to play mana wars however, managing CC and doing as big as possible constant damage instead of silly bursts is much harder. Considering this, go PuG a 5man or a raid and you'll see how many suckers there are that own in PvP just because of this.

As a conclusing, skill WILL matter more, and that's a GOOD thing.
Also, PvP will once again feel... epic ?

I am extremely excited for rated BGs. However, the only thing that worries me is that the fun of BGs, being able to use your whole character including professions, and the sheer madness of it all will be turned gay like arena was. I just don't want to see BGs go the way of arena. Leave the format and style alone, just add ratings to it.

[playersup]

Blizz has stated they want to 'slow pvp down' by increasing the healthpool and scaling down healing a bit.

So I was wondering... Lets presume Bob has good pvp gear and can inflict and mitigate more damage than Jack who is poorly geared. Even though Jack might be more 'skilled' wont the change benefit Bob more? Just a thought - would like to hear what you guys think of it. :-\

Depends on the health of lower levelled gear compared to the health on higher levelled gear and the amount of resilience distributed amongst each sets compared to the damage being done.

Example -

Low Gear = 100k with 1000 resilience
High Gear = 150k with 2000 resilience
Attacks = 30k-50k

or

Low Gear = 100k with 1000 resilience
High Gear = 120k with 1200 resilience
Attacks = 20k-30k

You can see with example 1 that low gear might get 2-3 shot deaths wherease high gear might get 4-5 shot deaths.
But in example 2 low gear might get 4-5 shot deaths whereas high gear might get 5-6 shot deaths.

Scaling of attacks, health, resilience mean nothing individually in terms of how fast someone dies.
Put together though, allowing them to become relative to each, means everything as to how fast someone will die.

Since we do not know the relative amounts between attacks, health and resilience for Cataclysm, it is rather a fruitless question to ask.

The only answer we can come up with is what you have already said -
"Blizzard wants to slow down PvP"

[Baabinator]

Who is Jack and where can i find Bob

Right next to Mankrik's Wife.

This might finally give blizzard a chance to honostly balance pvp, instead of 1 trick pony's (or a million trick pony's)

[Izenhart]

Blizz has stated they want to 'slow pvp down' by increasing the healthpool and scaling down healing a bit.

So I was wondering... Lets presume Bob has good pvp gear and can inflict and mitigate more damage than Jack who is poorly geared. Even though Jack might be more 'skilled' wont the change benefit Bob more? Just a thought - would like to hear what you guys think of it. :-\

Mhm...

To me, doing something in twice the time as before, needs twice the concentration, skill and cold blood to do it.

Now if an healer fucks up a CC, he's gonna get burned down in 5 seconds.
We'll probably end up with 55k hp healers and teams will actually need a valid strategy to kill them rather than silence him and burn him down in 3 seconds.

[playersup]

Mhm...

To me, doing something in twice the time as before, needs twice the concentration, skill and cold blood to do it.

Now if an healer fucks up a CC, he's gonna get burned down in 5 seconds.
We'll probably end up with 55k hp healers and teams will actually need a valid strategy to kill them rather than silence him and burn him down in 3 seconds.

There is really only 1 other strategy if you cant burst someone down, and that is to make them go oom.

Mana users will probably have to worry about their mana a whole lot more in Cataclysm PvP, because it would be utterly stupid for a healer to be able to keep alive all their team mates, knowing that no one can be burst down also knowing that he wont go oom.

The way i see it, it can only be a competition of controlled burst, or a competition of mana conservation.

The two can not co-exist in arena at the same time or else matches would never end.

[shamaster]

this will change is making druids op again, hots when given the huge health pools will be able to heal for more, thats also why druids dont do well in early seasons when resil and hp is low and do better in later seasons when hp and resil is high

it will also make it unlikely that any1 dies in 10 seconds, it will basically just make burst much lower, so people wont complain about ele, destro, ret being op
1, 2, 3, 4, DEAD will be gone, but expect to see druids/warriors again all over

i hope to make see a 100% or 200% increase in damage, with a 300% or a 400% increase in hp
(12000, 18000 single target dps (pve), and 100k, 125k hp)

i find your skill statement flawed, if you r skilled you prevent damage, and you will cont to not take damage, you dont get blown up in 3 seconds that you cant lock them down is the key
it will help classes with high skill caps and hurt those with lower skill caps (except resto druids, they'll benefit):
a skilled rogue or frost mage if vastly under geared wont be touched by a baddie of any class (except maybe feral)

its going to make tunnel vision cleave teams disappear (FUCK YES), going to make rmp more dominant (this will blow)

and here r several things to look forward to in cata,
first seasons:
druids warriors up(but less so than woltk), burst classes op (but less so than woltk)
warriors will cry for dps increase becuz of how retarded rage is, they will get it and then have the best dps later since the rage mechanic was changed so they could be balanced in shit gear and super op in good gear....... (fucking warriors)
after cata's s2:
druids warriors op, burst gone, cc/ms reigns supreme in 3s
druid warrior in 2s will be just so stupid again

[playersup]

Druid / Warr will always dominate all the time warr can deal massive dmg AND have mortal strike.

For 2's to be better balanced either other classes need mortal strike OR warrior damage needs to be halved.

Having excellent damage output and reduced healing effects on your opponent is easy to see that 2's will be dominated by the player that has this.


BUT before we discuss that we can already say it doesnt matter, Blizz gave up trying to balance 2's last season. So it doesnt matter.