Seal of Command vs Seal of Vengeance?

[Vargerl]

I just have a real quick question. I looked in the sticky and I may have missed the information if it is there. So if it is, I apologize.

I am possibly remaining to my Ret Pally for our raids and I just wanted to check on something.

Which is better to use, Command or Vengeance? I know for sure that Command is what you wanna use when there are mobs involved due to the chain affect.. However, if it's a single target boss (no additional adds).. Is it best to use Vengeance?

And if it's a fight like Anub that varies w/Adds or no adds, do you just switch Seals mid-fight?

Any and all information would be great! Thanks again and apologies if I missed this information in the stickies.

[mindmage]

Venegance for boss.
If you need more cleaves on anub adds, switch midfight.

[Thrafklir]

I say the same

Venegance for boss.
If you need more cleaves on anub adds, switch midfight.

^^

[Prentice]

If you can handle it, you would be better off seal twisting on Anub. It will net you the highest DPS.

When Anub emerges, build your Veng stack. When the adds come out, switch to Command and blow wings. Be sure to switch back to SoV before your stack falls off. There are periods where you will want to be using SoV when all of the adds are dead. Losing your stack and needing to rebuild it will kill your DPS and Command just doesn't do enough single target damage.

[Templar]

Command for multi mobs/trash packs (Onyxia Whelps for example). Seal of Righteousness for Quick downing of mobs that won't last over 15 secs and Seal of Vengeance for single targets you can stay on for more than 15secs.

You switch to a seal that suits the situation on fights like Anub. For example if you are allowed to stick to the boss use Vengeance or if Anub and Adds are tanked next to each other swap targets to keep 5 stack up etc. Switch to SoR if you have to take an add down that was tanked at distance and you think will go down quick. SoC for the poison DoT stacking mobs in the burrow phase because they're usually quite close together.

Hope this helps.

edit: Will try myself what Prentice said see what benefit is .

[Ronark]

You switch to a seal that suits the situation on fights like Anub. For example if you are allowed to stick to the boss use Vengeance or if Anub and Adds are tanked next to each other swap targets to keep 5 stack up etc. Switch to SoR if you have to take an add down that was tanked at distance and you think will go down quick. SoC for the poison DoT stacking mobs in the burrow phase because they're usually quite close together.

Hope this helps.

edit: Will try myself what Prentice said see what benefit is .

Prentice was talking at 25 man Anub.

[Prentice]

Clearly, your results may vary. I had read other people talking about doing the SoV/SoComm twist on Anub and decided to give it a shot. Considering how much you have to watch, its not very easy.

Also, you may want to consider which mode you are attempting. On heroic, you should certainly get the full effect of the Seal of Command cleave. Depending on placement, sometimes you don't hit the third target on regular difficulty.

The healing isn't very intense throughout p1 and p2. Our healers regularly DPS during these phases and it can cause an apparent shortage of AoE during p3. More often then not, I end up running Seal of Command only during p3 for the constant AoE damage.

[Ronark]

Or 10 togc

Same thing.

Although in 1- TotGC, I find it better to straight up use SoV in phase 1 and 3 and only use Command in phase 2, but thats probably due to our makeup that we use.

[Prentice]

Same thing.

Although in 1- TotGC, I find it better to straight up use SoV in phase 1 and 3 and only use Command in phase 2, but thats probably due to our makeup that we use.

The burrower adds in p3 have significantly less HP in 10man. With a less than optimal raid group, you can still keep up with killing the adds. In our 10mans, I normally just use SoV. The whole SoV/SoComm twist was primarily targeted at ToGC25 and perhaps TotC25 depending on your raid comp.

[The Good Captain]

Clearly, your results may vary. I had read other people talking about doing the SoV/SoComm twist on Anub and decided to give it a shot. Considering how much you have to watch, its not very easy.

Also, you may want to consider which mode you are attempting. On heroic, you should certainly get the full effect of the Seal of Command cleave. Depending on placement, sometimes you don't hit the third target on regular difficulty.

The healing isn't very intense throughout p1 and p2. Our healers regularly DPS during these phases and it can cause an apparent shortage of AoE during p3. More often then not, I end up running Seal of Command only during p3 for the constant AoE damage.

Depending on a given situations criticality--and only because its mana intensive--one would need to judge whether or not they could handle it. In most raid comp's, it wouldn't be a problem. I only twist on about two occasions, and both are Anub's P-2. But in P-3, we just avert our focus to an add, kill it, and commence working on Anub'; because I feel it's most efficient, I stick with SoV during P-3, and that's in either 10 or 25-man versions.

[Ronark]

The burrower adds in p3 have significantly less HP in 10man. With a less than optimal raid group, you can still keep up with killing the adds. In our 10mans, I normally just use SoV. The whole SoV/SoComm twist was primarily targeted at ToGC25 and perhaps TotC25 depending on your raid comp.

Hence why I said:

Prentice was talking at 25 man Anub.

[Prentice]

Depending on a given situations criticality--and only because its mana intensive--one would need to judge whether or not they could handle it. In most raid comp's, it wouldn't be a problem. I only twist on about two occasions, and both are Anub's P-2. But in P-3, we just avert our focus to an add, kill it, and commence working on Anub'; because I feel it's most efficient, I stick with SoV during P-3, and that's in either 10 or 25-man versions.

Mana can be an issue if you aren't careful. As a BE, I pop Arcane Torrent right before the adds spawn in p1 and use Divine Plea on cooldown. During p2, I try to prioritize judging to get myself topped off for the upcoming emerged phase. If you pay attention to your mana regen cd's, you shouldn't have any mana issues at all.

Just curious. Is your guild working on or has your guild killed HM25 Anub yet? My seal seems to make no difference on 25Reg Anub and I can just wail away with Veng. On HM25, we need all the DPS we can get on the adds.

Ronark, it appears that you post replies to mine like you are attempting to defend yourself. Just so you know, I rarely ever attempt to start some kind of argument with you. You don't need to defend yourself. Mayhaps sometimes I am not clear enough with my replies, but I am certainly not trying to attack or insult you.

[Eurytos]

Ronark, it appears that you post replies to mine like you are attempting to defend yourself. Just so you know, I rarely ever attempt to start some kind of argument with you. You don't need to defend yourself. Mayhaps sometimes I am not clear enough with my replies, but I am certainly not trying to attack or insult you.

If there is a in Ronarks post you can be assured he isnt offended, as he mainly like to pad his post count to stay in range of Chronalis. Likewise, I am trying to pad mine by answering for him. Only a few more to 1000.

[Ishamyyl]

tl;dr? Each has its situational uses.
SoR's extra damage procs off CS, DS, and white attacks. For example, if a mob is behind you, a DS will hit it and thus proc SoR, but SoComm wont chain to it because it's too far away.
SoComm chains off of whites and CS. Note that the chain only goes one direction; that is, it wont turn around to hit the closest target, like Chain Lightning. This only matters if there's 2 adds, but one is on each side of your target.
SoV/C has a build-up time- if a mob wont last until 5 stacks of Holy Vengeance are up, other seals (esp SoR) will kill it even faster.

All judgements proc the seal, it shows up in the combat log as Judgement of <Seal>. If you use a scrolling combat text, it's sometimes hard to see what is proc-ing off what, tho.

My personal preference:
Big add, SoV/C. Big add + few adds that arent anub's, SoV/C still (DS and Conc is good enough).
A handfull of medium or small adds, SoComm.
An add that should/needs to die quickly, SoR.

Sometimes, wasting a GCD on seal-twisting isnt the best choice. Consider your mana pool and if Plea (and even Judgement) is on CD.

edit:forgot to add the bit about judgements.

[Ronark]

Mana can be an issue if you aren't careful. As a BE, I pop Arcane Torrent right before the adds spawn in p1 and use Divine Plea on cooldown. During p2, I try to prioritize judging to get myself topped off for the upcoming emerged phase. If you pay attention to your mana regen cd's, you shouldn't have any mana issues at all.

Just curious. Is your guild working on or has your guild killed HM25 Anub yet? My seal seems to make no difference on 25Reg Anub and I can just wail away with Veng. On HM25, we need all the DPS we can get on the adds.

Ronark, it appears that you post replies to mine like you are attempting to defend yourself. Just so you know, I rarely ever attempt to start some kind of argument with you. You don't need to defend yourself. Mayhaps sometimes I am not clear enough with my replies, but I am certainly not trying to attack or insult you.

Lemme re-phrase: I was more agreeing with you that (in your original post on 25/25H Anub) seal twisting was good, and not much needed for 10/10H Anub.

If there is a in Ronarks post you can be assured he isnt offended, as he mainly like to pad his post count to stay in range of Chronalis. Likewise, I am trying to pad mine by answering for him. Only a few more to 1000.

Shhhhhh

[Aesis]

Well I just concentrate on Anub but use AoE attacks more often, because ranged dealers will shoot the adds anyway :P

but on heroic I do start hitting the adds, but I never thought of switching seals because I thought the SoV stack is removed as soon as I switch seals. gotta try sometime ;D

[KingKrab]

ive never swapped to socomm before burrow phases. Imo the single target dmg output is much better on anub. the faster you get to p3 the better off you are. I suppose if your other AOE isnt strong enough your better off seal swapping tho

[Eärendil]

When Anub emerges, build your Veng stack. When the adds come out, switch to Command and blow wings. Be sure to switch back to SoV before your stack falls off. There are periods where you will want to be using SoV when all of the adds are dead. Losing your stack and needing to rebuild it will kill your DPS and Command just doesn't do enough single target damage.

Yes. Do this on Trial of the Grand Crusade and you'll risk getting killed. The reason why: the tank tanking the adds is regemming and respeccing for maximum avoidance (stacking defense rating on gear to increase block chance primarily), not maximum threat generation. The gear required for tanking adds comes from lower tier raids such as Naxxramas or Ulduar, meaning that the Threatgeneration won't be near what it would be in T9.25 gear. Raidleaders in fact even instructed our melee to avoid cleaving actively but just use the casual cleaving effects of consecration, divine storm, whirlwind and the like.

The problem is this for the quoted poster's strategy: As soon as you get 5 stacks, you'll have to switch to SoC (Command, I'm an oldie, SoCorr is the Corruption seal in my eyes :P) because the adds will be incoming as soon as you get your 5 stacks. Twisting seals here will only cause you to end up in a mana bind and will in the end lower your dps as the Global Cooldown activating all the time will prevent you from doing your rotation properly. In the middle of the SoC nuking that you attempt to do, you have to switch targets yet again, seal twist to SoCorr/SoV and hope that you haven't done it too late to keep you 5 vengeance/corruption debuffs up.

Here's what you should do:

Let the ranged dps take care of the adds. And before people start refuting my comment here - note please that I've already completed TotGC on 25man and know that actively cleaving the adds entails the risk of getting owned, especially if you start nuking them just as they walk onto the frost patch and the tank has limited amount of aggro on them (before he can get into position). These are common mistakes made and will cause you to wipe. Wasting a battle resurrection early on in the fight will both lower your dps or healing as well as waste a perfectly good cooldown on something that should not have happened in the first place. The Anub fight is just as much about control as it is about nuking him down fast enough.

My advice and point is this: Be careful, actively AoE nuking as melee is not wise - keep your sights on the boss and stand ready to Holy Wrath the Shadow strike (a good idea is to get the Holy Wrath glyph, like I have - since I'm on stun-adds-duty during the encounter). Do not waste your Avenging Wrath on adds unless they're on really high health and the next set of adds are incoming within i.e 15 seconds. The raid AoE damage done to them should be more than enough to kill them (read: Blizzard, Rain of Fire, Hurricane, Volley). Get 5 stacks of Vengeance on the boss, blow wings and your trinkets (if any are activatable..ugh is that a word?), nuke for a short while, and try to throw the offtank a hand of freedom when the adds go down - will make it very simple for him to rush out and get in position for the next set of adds (or you can save it for the tank when he runs in again - as running over the frost patch will be real easy - and positioning the adds correctly is crucial.) An add hitting the tank in the back means a dead off tank. As soon as the offtank is dead, you might as well call a wipe because the adds will start nuking the dps or even worse - the healers (depending on threatgeneration/positioning).

Using Seal of Command is a good idea in phase 2 (the burrowphase) as most of the time the adds wills tart rushing towards your raid and they'll be tightly locked next to eachother. When you get a lot of adds in phase 2 - Holy Wrath > Divine Storm>Crusader strike. Cleave as hard as you can (Holy Wrath for the stun only - to reduce amount of debuffs building up on your tanks/raiders)

Note also this: Even if you should inactively cleave with Seal of Command on the adds (because adds+boss are tanked close to one another) the SoC cleave won't be hitting all the adds - both due to the cleave's target restriction and due to the hitboxes of the adds compared to the boss will be too far away to hit the adds - even with ranged cleaving (blizz/RoF/Hurricane etc) one add normally ends up being at higher health than the others, causing one add to be left with roughly 20% hp when the other 3 are dead. At least that has been the case in my guild - i can not speak for other raid guilds.