Balance for pvp.. Scourge Strike a other hotfix pls xD

[deamase]

I vote for:

Scourge Strike- Shadowpart can crit on player(pvp) but it not can crit on mobs(pve)!!!!!

Balance for pvp.. pls.

when rentless vs rentless playd in this two days, the dmg wasn't op, it was that wat a meele should do.


Scourge Strike can now crit only once:
The dmg output in pvp is like.. hmm a joke. Unholy won't be playable in pvp with this fix. Too many classes absorb the hole dmg of this "main"-ability.
A dk make less of pressure in the s7(against skilled peoples, cleans diseas & no dmg comes from dk).
With this change it will be a joke-class in s8 in uh.


what did you think?

[elseagoat]

I posted this in another thread.

A non-crit Scourge Strike with three diseases up and properly talented is essentially a 166% weapon damage attack.

Death Knights hit fast, and with a strike that scales this well, they hit hard too. 166% weapon damage is completely in line with other physical attacks, and is actually higher than almost all others. I don't even think Arms warriors have a physical attack that scales that well.

It can still crit, dealing about 380% of weapon damage. That is a very, very big number.




Before the hotfix, you basically had a chance to crit for 520% weapon damage. This is UNREASONABLY HIGH. This hotfix is warranted, stop complaining, accept it, Scourge Strike is now a very good, and balanced attack.

[Fadeddeath]

Notice the complaints all come from PVP. I agree that in PVE it was OP but with mitigation and resilience reducing crit chance and damage by so much these days I was seeing 3.5k double crits on plate. Since the damage is physical first, armor reduces much of the damage. If the shadow damage was calculated without the mitigation of the physical damage, then this attack might be worth something. For a 2 rune attack that uses the same runes as your diseases, it's garbage now. Heart strike hits harder for 1 rune and doesn't use the same runes as your diseases. I ended up switching to DW Frost and noticed that it is on par with where unholy used to be. I miss the Gargoyle soloing any DPS that can't heal while working on the healer in 2v2, but hey, Hungering cold, Unbreakable armor, and the added ranged attack of Howling Blast are worth it for hunters and mages.

[elseagoat]

Notice the complaints all come from PVP. I agree that in PVE it was OP but with mitigation and resilience reducing crit chance and damage by so much these days I was seeing 3.5k double crits on plate. Since the damage is physical first, armor reduces much of the damage. If the shadow damage was calculated without the mitigation of the physical damage, then this attack might be worth something. For a 2 rune attack that uses the same runes as your diseases, it's garbage now. Heart strike hits harder for 1 rune and doesn't use the same runes as your diseases. I ended up switching to DW Frost and noticed that it is on par with where unholy used to be. I miss the Gargoyle soloing any DPS that can't heal while working on the healer in 2v2, but hey, Hungering cold, Unbreakable armor, and the added ranged attack of Howling Blast are worth it for hunters and mages.

Scourge Strike should be hitting harder than Heart Strike on equal armor targets.

Properly talented, Heart Strike does:
1.1 * 1.04 * 1.45 * 1.09 * 50% = 90% of weapon damage, plus a flat bonus, when you have 3 stacks of Bloody Vengeance.

Scourge Strike does 166% (I wont repost the math, it is easy to do for yourself)

So I'm calling bullshit on your claim that HS hits harder on Plate than SS.

If it is not, the culprit is Armor Penetration.

Scourge Strike double-critting is not a reasonable solution for Unholy's problems with plate, the issue lies in our need for Spell Penetration which limits our ability to gear for Armor Penetration like a Warrior in PvP. Double Crits are not the solution, fixing our need for Spell Pen in PvP (which is pretty stupid) is.

[Fadeddeath]

When I was Blood spec, my heart strike would crit for 6.5k+ on plate without gemming Arp.
3.3 My SS's were double critting for under 4K total on plate.

Now that it has been nerfed I don't even want to know what the numbers are.


Heartstrike hits for 50% * 1.45 (Bloody Strikes) * 1.1 (Blood Gorged) * 1.2 (2 diseases) * 1.04 (2H Weapon Spec) * 1.09 (Bloody Vengeance) * 1.15 (Blood Presence) coming out to 125% when rounded up. This is further multiplied by 20% when using Hysteria taking it to 150% This then doubles for a crit to 300%. You then have to multiply the 150% bonus by 45% bringing the total to 368% weapon damage rounded up on a crit.

368% weapon damage crit in a spec that gives me over 600 more AP before the 10% AP bonus from Abomination's Might and the 10% armor pen from Blood Gorged.

Also when Rune of the Fallen Crusader, Darkmoon card Greatness, and my Sigil of Virulence all proc, I'm at almost 8000 AP.

You can call bullshit but Heart strike hits harder for 1 rune then Scourge Strike does for 2. Even if it hit as hard, you can pull off 2 your first rotation where as you can only use 1 scourge strike since it uses frost and unholy, the same runes as your diseases that make scourge strike do it's shadow portion.

If it wasn't for the Ghoul and the Gargoyle, unholy wouldn't have been viable for anything.

[elseagoat]

When I was Blood spec, my heart strike would crit for 6.5k+ on plate without gemming Arp.

I don't believe this for a second.

You then have to multiply the 150% bonus by 45% bringing the total to 368% weapon damage rounded up on a crit.

Not really sure what you are talking about here. The 45% crit bonus really means that you multiply your normal noncrit damage by 2.45 and the resulting number is what you will crit for.

Two Heart Strikes, which is roughly the rune equivalent of one Scourge Strike, will do more damage than a Scourge Strike. A single Heart Strike will never out damage a Scourge Strike on the same target, it is not possible, unless you are using Hysteria.

You should also keep in mind that Unholy buffs things like Deathcoil so much, that it is roughly a damage equivalent if not better than the passive boosts in Blood such as 600 AP or Abom Might.

[elseagoat]

Scourge Strike damage with Black Ice, Outbreak, Ebon Plague, and Rage of Rivendare.
(0.5 * 1.3 * 1.1) + (3 * (0.5 * 1.3 * 1.1) * 0.25 * 1.1 * 1.3 * 1.13 * 1.1) plus static ((400 * 1.3 * 1.1) + (3 * (400 * 1.3 * 1.1) * 0.25 * 1.1 * 1.3 * 1.13 * 1.1))))= 0.715 + 1.097 plus static 572 + 762.543 = 181.2% weapon damage plus static 1334.543.


Heart Strike Damage with Two-Handed Spec, Bloody Strikes, 3 stacks Bloody Vengeance, and Blood Gorged:
(0.5 * 1.04 * 1.45 * 1.09 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1) plus static (358 * 1.04 * 1.45 * 1.09 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1) = 1.094 plus static 783.2 = 109.4% weapon damage plus static 783.
Note: I am not sure how disease bonuses stack, I assumed they are multiplicative here but it may take 10% of your damage on the diseaseless strike and just add that for every disease, either way they numbers come out very close but slightly lower if it works additively, so I did this math in favor of more Heart Strike damage and yet it still comes out lower.


Scourge Strike = 181.2% Weapon Damage plus 1335
Heart Strike = 109.4% Weapon Damage plus 783


I assumed multiplicative disease bonuses for Heart Strike, which results in better scaling than if the bonus is additive. Even still, Scourge Strike scales better than Heart Strike.

I left out Blood Presence, which favors Scourge Strike because the Shadow portion of the strike double dips. Even still, Scourge Strike scales better than Heart Strike.

Is 600 AP, 10% AP, 10% Armor Pen enough to offset a 72% weapon damage plus 552 difference per strike? Seriously fucking doubt it.



If you were noticing higher Heart Strikes than Scourge Strikes, this is probably why:
-You hit a PvP geared player with Scourge Strike, and a PvE or otherwise shittily geared player with Heart Strike.
-You falsely boosted your Heart Strike numbers with Hysteria. In reality, Hysteria is up 10% of the time so if you were to press it every time it came up you would get about a 2% average increase in Heart Strike damage overall.
-You were not PvP geared, and thus had room for Armor Pen on your gear as Blood because you didn't get your Spell Pen requirements (which is the real issue here, if DKs didn't have to gem for this bogus caster shit then we could gem like Warriors and do fine damage).

[Fadeddeath]

All of my numbers come from my experiences in arena, and duels with my arena partners. Hitting the same player with both specs and both of us in PVP gear shows me hitting my ret paladin partner harder with heart strike than with scourge strike consistently. If you don't believe it, feel free to go try it.

Also in VoA 25 with raid buffs, I see upwards of 8.5-9.5k crits with my heart strike. That's isn't quite as much as a raid buffed scourge strike since you are right, scourge strike scales better, but 2 heart strikes > 1 scourge strike.


I still think they should calculate the shadow damage before physical mitigation, then calculate resistance on the shadow before they add it to the physical damage. The shadow will hit equally as hard on Plate as it would on Cloth, but the physical portion would be lower on plate for obvious reasons.

[Alkros]

The entire discussion whether HS hits harder than SS is pointless, imo.
SS will always hit harder than HS, except when there's 2 fully dotted targets, then it suddenly completely different, BUT, SS costs 2 runes, and 2 very valuable runes, whereas HS only cost 1 rune, and a blood rune. no less. In the first set of ur rotation, u can pull off either;
IT+PS - 2xHS - DS
or
IT+PS - 2xBS + SS
Since BS sucks, Blood will do more dmg on the first set of runes, however, the second set will look something like this;
4xHS - DS
or
3xSS
I'm not heavy into math, and I haven't played Blood in a while, so I'm not quite sure how much dmg DS does these days, but to me, it would seem that UH takes the second round.
Also, you should not that not all our dmg comes from our runes, with UH, DC does quite alot of dmg, however as Blood, you get some free DCs aswell as the once you cast manually.

I can't predict how DKs are gonna look once the dust from the SS nerf has settled, nor can I predict when Blizz is gonna change SS once more, or how they will do it.
Just my 2 cents.

[Hand Banana]

5/5 Relentless dk with t2 weapon (my 3's partner) hit me (5/5 relentless holy pally, 980 resil) for a 1600 SS CRIT before this change (not double crit).

1600 CRIT. THAT IS ABOSULTE SHIT. You guys are posting all this math about ss but you have to understand that in pvp it doesnt hit for shit, thats the moral of the story. Lets say i have about 20% damage reduction from talents / resil and 64% more from armor. Thats a whole lot of damage reduction to the physical part, which also then reduces the shadow part because it hits for very little with the first strike.

Also, the chances of a double-crit in pvp against a fully resilled target are very slim. He has roughly like 26-27% crit with horn up. I have 11% reduced chance to be crit from resil. So he has to crit both attacks that have a 15% chance to crit. You do the math to find out how often that wont happen...

Anyway, moral of the story, this change is warranted in pve because he was hitting 2600 non-crit and 15000 double crits on the dummy, but in pvp it just blows even worse now than it did when 3.3 launched. Cant see dks being well represneted in arenas anymore (o wait they already werent...).

Before the hotfix, you basically had a chance to crit for 520% weapon damage. This is UNREASONABLY HIGH. This hotfix is warranted, stop complaining, accept it, Scourge Strike is now a very good, and balanced attack.

You my friend obviously dont do arenas with top end gear to understand that a dk who used to be able to make me bubble in 20 seconds or less cant even make me pop a CD WITHOUT sacred shield anymore.

[siq]

I posted this in another thread.

A non-crit Scourge Strike with three diseases up and properly talented is essentially a 166% weapon damage attack.

Death Knights hit fast, and with a strike that scales this well, they hit hard too. 166% weapon damage is completely in line with other physical attacks, and is actually higher than almost all others. I don't even think Arms warriors have a physical attack that scales that well.

It can still crit, dealing about 380% of weapon damage. That is a very, very big number.





Before the hotfix, you basically had a chance to crit for 520% weapon damage. This is UNREASONABLY HIGH. This hotfix is warranted, stop complaining, accept it, Scourge Strike is now a very good, and balanced attack.

4950AP self buffed on 1050res druid in tree form



think again..

[Sulika]

A warrior sword spec proc with double crits would do more damage than the pre-nerf scourge strike did with two crit rolls.

Why is the first ok and the second was overpowered?

And anyone who thinks that having Unholys biggest attack critting for 600 vs holy paladins is fine has some issues. We are talking about a two rune attack that crits for less damage than the dots tick for ...

This nerf was done for PvE reasons though, the only reason it was overpowered in PvE was because of a lazy implementation that left the shadow part scaling to ridiculous numbers on fights with a large damge increase buff due to the huge buff being applied twice.

Take away that scaling and those 120k crits become 60k crits. Still high but considering that the 80-90k arcane blast crits that arcane mages have been getting on that same fight for months didn't seem to be a problem it is hard to see why the odd 60k crit would be.

The DK now needs raid buffs to hit as hard with Scourge Strike as it used to be hitting self buffed. If you PvE thats not a big issue (though since my DK does 10 mans with no warrior in the group not having a sunder has tanked my DPS pretty substantially in that situation) but for PvP thats just not possible.

Scourge Strike went from being a Magic damage attack with all the advantages that entailed to being a Physical attack that also has all the disadvantages of being magic.

[Proletariat]

Not only is it's damage on the low side in PvP, Blizz completely and utterly ignored it's dependency on Diseases actually being up. With 3/4 healers able to dispel Diseases, DKs simply can't pressure anything at all by themselves, and are dependent much more heavily on partner synergy than almost any other class.

[zekiel]

I posted this in another thread.

A non-crit Scourge Strike with three diseases up and properly talented is essentially a 166% weapon damage attack.

Death Knights hit fast, and with a strike that scales this well, they hit hard too. 166% weapon damage is completely in line with other physical attacks, and is actually higher than almost all others. I don't even think Arms warriors have a physical attack that scales that well.

It can still crit, dealing about 380% of weapon damage. That is a very, very big number.

You act like there no such thing as cleansing our diseases. Half the time we're reapplying our diseases



Before the hotfix, you basically had a chance to crit for 520% weapon damage. This is UNREASONABLY HIGH. This hotfix is warranted, stop complaining, accept it, Scourge Strike is now a very good, and balanced attack.

[Sulika]

Some people seem to have trouble grasping that 166% of a small number is still a small number. Yeah Scourge Strike is 5,000% more than a lvl 1 autoattack but that doesn't mean it is any good.

If your autoattacks are doing 400 damage to the target then 166% of this is still less than 700 damage. Hitting a healer with ~25k health for 700 damage is laughable. You could socket ArP for PvP but then you run into the problem that you have to lose the 135 spell penetration DKs need to socket for. You can get the numbers up slightly but have fun watching as it gets resisted half the time against any team with a paladin, priest or druid on their roster (i.e. pretty much every team in the game).

Scourge Strike, in its current form has all the disadvanteges of being both a physical and a magical attack without the advantages of either. The magic part is resistable but reduced by armor since it is a multiple of a number that is reduced by armor. Scourge Strike is, to all intents and purposes a physical damage attack now. Every single part of its damage is reduced by armor. When you take the biggest strike from the DKs magic damage tree and make it basically a physical attack it puts them in an impossible situation for PvP. You simply can not gear in any sort of optimal way. If you stack ArP all your other damage suffers severly, if you don't your main strike hits like a wet noodle. Either way you are screwed.