Concern about enhancement health pool

[teramelos]

My guild was doing 25 man Lady Deathwhisperer last night and I was part of the melee group that was handling adds on the right side. We'd blow through the first add, get on the second one and at that point, I was pretty much shotted. Of course this didn't happen every time, but it just seems like I was taking some pretty unmanageable damage. I'd take a bolt from her and then immediately death and decay would appear under my feet. I asked the holy paladin healing me what he thought about it and he said that he was having to watch me more than the tank or the other people in my group. I was by far the hardest for him to keep up. I usually do a decent job of staying out of things but it's like there was no recourse and zero room for error. (Yes, I understand it's the new raid) By no means is this post a QQ and while I'm appreciative of them buffing shaman's health recently (3.2?) I was wondering if there are other enhancement shamans experiencing the same thing I am. With that in mind, Would it be worth it to put a little stam somewhere? Maybe an expertise/stam gem? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I'm posting this from my phone right now, but you can find me on the Armory. I'm Teramelos on Akama.

[Spaceinvader]

Your health is within 10 points of mine. I haven't experienced such problems on that fight. If it's D&D that is a problem, you need to move a little faster and maybe use some Maelstrom Weapon-instant heals on yourself. DBM gives a D&D warning before the graphic even appears under my feet, so it's not impossible to move before taking too much damage. And the D&D damage, isn't too terrible if you take a tick on 25. Ideally, Frostbolt Volleys should be interrupted (some of them by you) so you aren't taking many of those.

That being said, rogues and even hunters still have 2-3K more health than shamans in comparable gear. And let's not even talk about the folks wearing plate.

If your health pool really is a problem for you in some fights and you can't solve it with improved reaction time, I don't think 1-2 gems would make much of a difference. I would recommend putting on a piece or 2 of PVP or frost resist gear (for the increased stam, not necessarily for the frost resistance) for those problem fights or possibly taking a point or two in Elemental Warding for damage reduction. Of course, those options all come with a dps loss so I would recommend working on your play some more before resorting to those.

[teramelos]

[quote=Spaceinvader ]
And the D&D damage, isn't too terrible if you take a tick on 25. Ideally, Frostbolt Volleys should be interrupted (some of them by you) so you aren't taking many of those.

That being said, rogues and even hunters still have 2-3K more health than shamans in comparable gear. And let's not even talk about the folks wearing plate.


I appreciate the quick reply. i understand what you're telling me but I'm reffering to phase one of the fight where I'm not even on the boss, but on the adds rather. the way we do it makes it to where I can't interrupt the bolts until we burn all of her mana down. maybe it's just a case where I need to L2p but even with MW procs offering the chance it just seems I can't mitigate that much damage. maybe my reaction time does suck... oh well. hey thanks again for your response. I do appreciate your time

[Bigj]

Popping shamanistic rage, wolves, your racial heal ability (if alliance), using maelstrom as self heals etc makes your survivability more than ok in my experience.

[Roum - Blackrock-EU]

When I was at Lady Deathwhisper with my raid I didn't have any health issues.

I assume that you stop using Shocks an Lightning Bolt when the caster-adds have spellreflect?

[Renzokuken]

Just wait till you have to be healed through mark of the Fallen Champion in P2... HW spam, gooooo!

[Andunie]

Estimates in an earlier post about other melee being 2-3K ahead of us is way, way off.

With DPS gems, my fully buffed HP was 22580 -- all of our rogues were in the mid-30's. Warriors, DK's, retribution paladins obviously way ahead of us. What do all of these classes have in common? Their gear has less requirements on it for stats (ie, Intellect) and thus stamina can be boosted.

After taking one too many one-shots that were completely not my fault and with the blessing of my guild I went stamina gems until the problem is fixed. Our entire role is to provide useful buffs to the people who do the real work in the raids, and a dead Enhancement Shaman sure as hell isn't buffing anybody.

Sim estimated my DPS loss as 500 and my eventual loss was ~610 which wasn't entirely unreasonable.

Other arguments are:
- You can use your SR for damage reduction: OK, I will save my SR for every time I need HP, and totally bone my rotation and be OOM due to mana-intensive abilities. Additionally we now also need our SR for a damage boost thanks T10!
- You can use your MW5 charges for self-heal: Essentially the same thing as gemming stamina, destroying your DPS for survivability. Stamina is a passive survivability boost while MW5 charges are situational and require a GCD and MW5 to be up when you precisely need it.
- You can use your wolves for self-heal: This is kind of possible (ie penetrating cold) but again saving your wolves is a huge DPS loss.

[Barawr]

After taking one too many one-shots that were completely not my fault and with the blessing of my guild I went stamina gems until the problem is fixed. Our entire role is to provide useful buffs to the people who do the real work in the raids, and a dead Enhancement Shaman sure as hell isn't buffing anybody.

I don't like this kind of answer. We do PLENTY of "real work" ourselves and gimping our dps is not the way to correct low health. Until Blizz decides to catch on and give us a bit more stamina, other than the measly buff from 3.2, the only option is to play smarter. Hurting your dps is not a solution.

[teramelos]

I don't like this kind of answer. We do PLENTY of "real work" ourselves and gimping our dps is not the way to correct low health. Until Blizz decides to catch on and give us a bit more stamina, other than the measly buff from 3.2, the only option is to play smarter. Hurting your dps is not a solution.

this is what Im really after. listen, it was never a problem when my guild was doing sarth 3d. it has nothing to do with me standing in DnD/void zones/whatever. I agree with Barawr on this one. sure, I'm a mail wearing class but it doesn't really feel like I am. I also don't agree with gimping my DPS when i'm behind pure dps classes anyways. I'm fine with being a utility class, and I understand why I'm in a raid.. but help me out here blizz. even with all the enhancement tricks I still have trouble managing that damage. thanks for your input, Barawr. I appreciate it!

[General Vezax]

They should integrate Toughness into another talent imo

[Amanoginji]

they will just tell us that in cata we will have more health.

[Barawr]

ROFL, yeah, except they want tell us that the health we gain is only from the 5 extra levels. ;D

[Deleted]

If you've been raiding with the same guild for some time your healers should have learned by now that keeping an enhancement shaman up is often a harder task than keeping up the tank. A disc priest making you the focus and trying to keep PW:S up as much as possible is the best solution I've found so far, then again with our health pool almost 5k below the average often even this isn't enough. The 500 hp boost in 3.2 was just a slap in the face, like giving 25 cents to a guy in debt over his head.

[detramental]

in my guild, the main healers can almost guess how much damage i'm going to take during specific fights.

my only suggestion is be on your toes and keep up with what buffs the mob has. don't cast LB if they have reflect up, always interrupt, watch your threat, don't stand in fire/d&d, etc. most of this fight is controllable, except for the random aoe frostbolt and d&d. threat problems and standing in d&d isn't an excuse imo.

the only problem i have with staying alive is massive aoe damage as a whole raid, ie. heroic 25 twins. i always save SR to pop for the massive incoming damage (and responsive healers to help). i had absolutely no problems popping a mw5 instant heal on myself to stay up.

sometimes playing defensive is just as effective as being offensive. a slight dip in dps is worth staying alive for.

[Spaceinvader]

I'd take a bolt from her and then immediately death and decay would appear under my feet.

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about frostbolt volleys from the boss which only happens in Phase 2. If you are taking damage from the adds themselves, I would suggest waiting until one of your plate dpsers hits them first and then help interrupt the deathchill bolts. In my runs, our dps DK on the right side grabs the first caster and then death grips the 2nd caster and then we beat on both casters while they unload on the DK (he does take quite a bit of damage though but better him than me!). Since you can interrupt the deathchill bolts and since you can control your threat on the adds, whether you get hit by deathchill bolts is partly within your control.

Estimates in an earlier post about other melee being 2-3K ahead of us is way, way off.

Totally correct, I was thinking unbuffed... which didn't lead to a useful estimate! Thanks for the correction.

[kudzupo]

For lady deathwhisper I can agree that it is very apparent that we have a lack of HP for a melee class. You have to be perfect 100% of the time or you are going to die a lot faster than another melee who makes a similar mistake.

What my guild does though, is allow me to stay on the boss herself the entire fight with a ret paladin, to help bring down the mana shield. Lower HP (i.e. having to be perfect on the adds) plus the inability to be very effective on either reanimated adds means we are possibly better suited for the boss herself. It worked for my guild, perhaps its an alternative .

[Gobber]

Sure you weren't just killing yourself with reflected shocks etc?

[greysin]

you were using magic vs the melee only adds and it reflected

THAT is your problem, not your health pool

i have no survivability problems on my enhancement shaman and i can always throw myself a heal if it gets rough

you just screwed up and are blaming your class. obviously you'd rather do that than learn the fight

the adds are the hardest part of that fight in phase 1

[bitrix]

ive never understood this arguement. Heath is relevant of raid wide aoe, yes, but aside from that just about everything is avoidable. My advice is use your CD's defensively if you are having trouble. Pop SR is you know your going to take alot of damage. Pop your wolves for heaing and use their sprint to GTFO of DnD if its a problem. Depending on your ranged dps p1 of deathwisper takes a while and theres no sense in saving your wolves for p2 when they are usefull in p1. Also make sure you understand the mechanics of the adds youre killing. the reflects are an issue for sure tab your MW and ES's into the right mobs win! a focus macro could help ya if your having trouble.

[Baabinator]

Im seeing some rogues in full t9.5 that have 26-27k health

DKs and warrior with 32k~

Here we come with a motherfucking mighty 21k!!!!!