Gearscore (long, you've been warned, dont bitch)

[Harith]

this is my 2 cents on the matter

gearscore is abused like hell in my eyes by the ppl looking for ppl and ppl who wants to join.

but gearscore is also broken sens it doesn't take in class and specc only ilvl gear.

i personaly don't use gearscore but it needs to get more complex, i think one thing is insted of simply saying gearscore based on ilvl i need to take the class and specc into the matter to say a more accurate gearscore take this as en example retri paladin trinkets the armor pen trinkets are useless for retri paladins but the trinket from FoS is ilvl232 and the greatness card is only 200 and that will make it look like the armor pen trinket is better when it is not. things like that is what need to change if gearscore is ever to be used to make a pug raid.

P.S how about a aichv score the more raiding aichvments you have done the higher you are. kinda like how some sites judge what the best guild is atm but person to person??

[draticus]

Oh shush, you're using logic. The OP in this thread supports gearscore, so don't expect logic to be welcome.


That'd be like expecting proponents of gearscore to recognize that the best libram for holy pallys is ilvl 200 (unless you're a FoL pally, in which case you're better off with a PvP libram). In no case should a holy pally be using one of the higher level holy librams... you know, the one gearscore rates higher because they're higher item level?

Your argument is devoid of logic because you think gearscore "rates" things in the first place. The only thing it "rates" is its stat value(total of stat points). Not the value of stats to an individual but the total points on the piece regardless of which actual stats they are. You, like most gearscore haters, think of gearscore as an addon that's supposed to accurately predict how a player will perform and you say it fails because all it really does is tell you the stat value of their gear. In reality, all its supposed to do is tell you the stat value of their gear. You can then make generalizations about their gear such as "They're in all greens" and decide whether or not to invite them to ICC25 Hard mode. If you can't see how this is useful then may god have mercy on your soul. The only fail, is in your expectations. I might as well be arguing that oranges are good because they have vitamin C and you're telling me how completely useless they are because they can't cure aids, cancer, or zits, all they can do is give you vitamin C.

An analogy:
I'm using a rear wheel horsepower meter to determine the horsepower of my race car and to look for other cars that can compete in my league. Every time I turn down a potential racer without letting them try out just because their race car has a 4 cylinder 100 horsepower engine I get a lecture about how a drivers skill means everything and horsepower is meaningless because a car could have 2000 horsepower but weigh 10 tons or only have a one gear transmission or some other such ridiculous configuration as if I couldn't recognize that configuration and turn that person down(Melee in all spellpower gear). I'm not automatically accepting anyone because of horsepower. I'm automatically turning people down because of horsepower. While driver skill is important it will never compensate for a 100 horsepower engine, thus I can and should refuse to try out the guy driving the geo metro regardless of what skill he might have. Does horsepower guarantee performance? No. Can a car with more horsepower actually be slower than a car with a little less horsepower? Sure it can. Can a car with 100 horsepower EVER compete in high end racing? NEVER. Do I save a lot of time and win more by testing the guys car and eliminating tons of 4 cylinders BEFORE race time? Absolutely.

Get it yet?

[Vellidrin]

and time for my input. GS does not infact measure skill, and while were at it neither does "post achievement", achievements say "well hey iv done it before", but for all you know it couldve been once, 4 months ago, and they died 12 seconds into the fight. achievement and GS mean nothing if you cant do what you need to. like switch to dark essence, run from the flame wall, or keep the adds on ice. lets use 2 of my recent 10os 3 drake zerg groups as examples.
Group 1 (all around 4900 gs and a few (including the healer) "never got around to doing this instance, but think they can do it")
-Absolutely did NOT run from flame walls
-Half of the fags switched to the drakes, after several raidwarnings telling them to do the exact opposite
-While pulling enough DPS to easily down sarth, got to around 35-40% each try.
Group 2 (about 4600 gs, no one above 4900. knew what they were doing and already had the title, just in it for the mount roll)
-Did run from flame walls
-Stayed on sarth, but not enough DPS to kill him
GS just measures POTENTIAL. they COULD be great, at least their gear says so. but they also COULD be retarded. you never really know.

[draticus]

and time for my input. GS does not infact measure skill, and while were at it neither does "post achievement", achievements say "well hey iv done it before", but for all you know it couldve been once, 4 months ago, and they died 12 seconds into the fight. achievement and GS mean nothing if you cant do what you need to. like switch to dark essence, run from the flame wall, or keep the adds on ice. lets use 2 of my recent 10os 3 drake zerg groups as examples.
Group 1 (all around 4900 gs and a few (including the healer) "never got around to doing this instance, but think they can do it")
-Absolutely did NOT run from flame walls
-Half of the fags switched to the drakes, after several raidwarnings telling them to do the exact opposite
-While pulling enough DPS to easily down sarth, got to around 35-40% each try.
Group 2 (about 4600 gs, no one above 4900. knew what they were doing and already had the title, just in it for the mount roll)
-Did run from flame walls
-Stayed on sarth, but not enough DPS to kill him
GS just measures POTENTIAL. they COULD be great, at least their gear says so. but they also COULD be retarded. you never really know.

As your example so well demonstrates even skilled people have no chance of doing certain content if they dont have the gear. Geared people at least have the potential. So if they're geared enough to be considered you check their gems/spec and invite them and see how they do. Replace if needed(which it rarely is).

[Deng]

As your example so well demonstrates even skilled people have no chance of doing certain content if they dont have the gear.

I suggest you to read these:

http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2009/08/ungeared.html

http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/200...d-for-icc.html

and the following posts in this category.

[Melonberry]

I'll always take the person with a higher gearscore, since they put effort into gearing their toon they are more likely to put effort into my group.

[Bring the Noise]

I'll bitch if i want to bitch!

[Barunk]

Gearscore would be cool if some of the best items weren't in the 200-213 range.

[Matafact]

If people complain so much about gearscore why doesn't someone make a skillscore addon, it could be used like wow progress and adds up certain achievements to give an over all number.

This would then again be "OMG QQ HE WAS CARRIED" but it would be a better overall idea of what someone is capable of.


(edit: If someone actually makes it I want to be included on the credits thanks :P )

[Deng]

If people complain so much about gearscore why doesn't someone make a skillscore addon, it could be used like wow progress and adds up certain achievements to give an over all number.

And how your uber alt would be measured then? Both methods are bad.

[goetz401]

For some healers iL200 Trinkets are better then the dropped ones in 10M Uld/Toc deflating their GS, Same for many pieces of armor were itemization of Set/Bonus is significantly better then pure item level.

This is particular a problem for healers who know their class and go for maximum itemization.

My Paladin in his healing gear sits at around 2400WH/3500GS and i have no problem stomping healers with 4500+ GS in to the ground all day long with out even trying that hard.

Like you said gearscore is not skillscore but it should be improved to account for spec and weight the person based on their "overall stats", not "Gear". Really all gear does is add to the persons stats. If you know what stats are worth the most it would be easy to tell you weather that person know what they are doing thus a better gauge of "skill" odds are if a person knows how to itemize their gear properly they probably know how to play their class.

Example 1: Holy Paladin
INT: 1400
SpP: 2200
SpC: 35%
SpH: 15%
Mp5: 300

Example 2: Holy Paladin
INT: 1100
SpP: 2500
SpC: 25%
SpH: 19%
Mp5: 400

Paladin 1 clearly knows his class better, although Paladin 2 will have a much higher "GearScore" overall he will end up being a liability to the raid because of his lower throughput and shorter longevity.

I would like to see the makers of GearScore stop looking at "gear" all together and look at the overall stats of someone. Then calculate their score based on the weighted stats. Example would be a hunter with 3 points in Focus Aim (3% hit) and ~160Hit rating from gear would make him "Hit Capped" and give him a higher rating then someone who is over/below the hit cap. If a Elm Shaman is stacking Spell crit, lower his overall score because Spell Power is an overall better dmg stat. All indicaions of player that doesn't know his class as well as he should.

actually, itemization isn't nearly as game-breaking for a holy pally as it is for most dps as long as you adjust your play style to what you are geared and specced for. i easily kept up with the other 2 holy pallies in my 25 man raids with stats similar to your example #2 while they had something more like #1. some of the stats are nearly interchangeable especially after the illumination nerf. it really depends on the damage that the tanks and raid are taking though. these stats depend on your spec too. more pallies are skipping the ~8% extra crit that ret tree gives.

intellect is still the best to gem for, but not all gear-sets have a high number of sockets and not all trinkets have 150 intellect on them. DPs cd is pretty low so a difference of a few hundred intellect is not really a big deal. crit chance from gear/spec is a bit overrated now. its value has been reduced by around 1/3. it has never really been great for throughput and its net mp5 has been halved. the mp5 it generates through illumination scales with your holy light usage though so if you are dumb and use holy light 90% of the time then amg you need more crit. i say the best throughput stat is spell power>haste.

[evan_s]

I have set up few raids where I havent asked any kind of achies or gearscores and they have done fine. If you know decent amount of every class you can easily check their armory profiles which tells 10x more information than gearscore, ofc this is a decent tool to check if ppl are in greens or not but it's not very accuracy and it shows that raidleaders is lazy.

You might want to check out gearscore then. It allows you to check their gear in game simply by clicking a link instead of having to pull them up in the armory to do the same thing.

[evan_s]

Gearscore would be cool if some of the best items weren't in the 200-213 range.

And a couple of item level 200-213 pieces aren't going to drop several thousand from your gear score.

[draticus]

Gearscore would be cool if some of the best items weren't in the 200-213 range.

In the grand scheme of things that little bit makes no difference. If someones gear is too low for ICC you aren't going to look at their gear and say oh, wait, their Gearscore is 3500 but their trinket is BiS so its really like they have a 3540 gearscore, now they're ok for ICC. And gearscore DOES show you their gear so if you're really worried about giving a few extra points for that ilvl 200 bis trinket you're free to do so. Gearscore wont stop you.

[darkwarrior42]

You might want to check out gearscore then. It allows you to check their gear in game simply by clicking a link instead of having to pull them up in the armory to do the same thing.

Until it can rate items correctly, I will not download it.

And if dropping your gearscore by 40 points on a couple of items doesn't matter, why are you even looking at the number? A numeric metric is only useful if higher = better. Clearly, that isn't the case.

[draticus]

I suggest you to read these:

http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2009/08/ungeared.html

http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/200...d-for-icc.html

and the following posts in this category.

So some people are going to try clear ICC in blues? They're going to fail.

I've already discussed the Ulduar blues in detail and don't feel like repeating myself. Short version: Their gearscore actually was good enough to do Ulduar AND a skilled and coordinated guild whos downed yogg together many times in their good gear can go back and do it in blues but that does not mean random people from LFG can. GS isn't for determining which guildies to take. Its about determining which strangers have the potential. And you shoudl always assume that strangers aren't going to be very good so they have to have a higher level of gear than I'd expect from a guildie. GS isn't about guarantees, its about odds. And since a decent gearscore can be gotten via a week of heroics there's no reason why a good player should ever be in blues anyway. I certainly wouldn't dare be selfish enough to expect a raid to replace my blues for me.

[draticus]

Until it can rate items correctly, I will not download it.

And if dropping your gearscore by 40 points on a couple of items doesn't matter, why are you even looking at the number? A numeric metric is only useful if higher = better. Clearly, that isn't the case.

The weather report is useless then? If it can't tell you exactly what the weather is going to be then there's no point in even knowing what the approximate temperature will be right?

If his gearscore is 3500 +/- 200 for lack of gear recognition it doesn't matter if its +200 or -200. We still know whether his gear is good enough for certain content.

Your entire problem is that you're not using gearscore as a device to determine whether gear is in the right range for an instance. You're using it to measure your dick. Thats the only time it needs to be 100% accurate. You dont want to lose 1/10th an inch off your dick by switching to a BiS ilvl 200 trinket so you hate on gearscore.