[Enh] Maximising AoE DPS

[Drogotaar]

Hey folks and merry xmas to you first!

Now to topic: I'm in struggle how to really use Fire Nova to maximise bomb DPS. There are two ways i actually think are viable:

No1: Fire Nova, Priority Spell, Fire Nova, Priorita Spell, repeat. Priority Spell --> simmed +3 priorities with enhsim mainly MW5_CL, SS_0, shocks and stuff
No2: Fire Nova, Priority Spell, Priority Spell, Fire Nova, Priorita Spell, Priority Spell, repeat.

Now the thing is: No1 gets more bad the more haste you got. So overall there is with ~25% haste about half a second where you can't do anything waiting for Fire Nova going off cd. It may be worth the wait but well, no idea.

I really have no clue integrating this in enhsim since the sim always uses what is on top of the priority and therefore ignoring Method 1.

What are your experiences/thougts?

/discuss pls

[Spongy]

I find Aoe as enhancement pretty simple u do your normal rotation but depending how many mobs you simply do fire nova or chain lightning. Not really brain science get behind a mob do your normal rotation. I think you point was that should u try stick say a ES in that time or wait for nova its same thing with chain lightning do i wait 1 second or just lightning bolt and go for it again. If your not doing things as they ready you lose dps but is that loss for 1 -2 seconds worth the gain from hitting 2/3 or maybe more targets

[XemnasXD]

yeah on aoe heavy trash pulls i just use cl instead of lb and keep mt up for fn...since this patch i can really pull some great numbers with aoe pulls

[lycian]

I find Aoe as enhancement pretty simple u do your normal rotation but depending how many mobs you simply do fire nova or chain lightning. Not really brain science get behind a mob do your normal rotation. I think you point was that should u try stick say a ES in that time or wait for nova its same thing with chain lightning do i wait 1 second or just lightning bolt and go for it again. If your not doing things as they ready you lose dps but is that loss for 1 -2 seconds worth the gain from hitting 2/3 or maybe more targets

Ehhh.. im not so sure about that. Yes, you want to keep your PRIORITY but your priority changes, as the OP was pointing out. As you add more mobs Fire Nova, Magma Totem, and Chain Lightning move higher and higher up. At around 4-5 mobs (normal for ICC trash) Fire Nova is your highest priority spell.

So in response to the OP; this is where haste vs. atp really makes a difference. Haste build wins on single target, atp wins in AoE (in my experience and in my sims). As far as priority i use FN and CL on each and every CD if i get 5xMW and CL is on CD i use LB so as to not waste my procs. I drop Flame Shock on trash, though im trying to test out some other methods to use it effectively. And if you have Dual Spec and can afford to have them both enhancement then it's worth it to get Glyph of Fire Nova for the reduced CD. Other than that i keep my priority the same.

[albuli77]

I have a resto Off-Spec so I started messing around with wearing my SP MH from my resto set with FT/FT for weapon imbue on large trash pulls (3 or more mobs usually unless one needs to be focused down for w/e reason). I haven't done it in ICC (I healed the past couple of runs :'() but in 5 mans its working real well. I also have Item Rack switch me to mirror of truth and my SP trinket for AoE. I'm using pretty standard AoE rotation: SR, MW_5CL, MW5_LB, FN, MT, ES_SS, SS, ES, LL. I've pushed 8k+ dps on some trash pulls in Pits of Saron. Same trash in my normal set I usually only get about 6k or so dps.

Only problem is, I've started couple of boss fights in my SP MH because I forget to switch ><

[Hexaholic]

Anything 3+ mobs, I drop Magma (which I do always anyways), immediately Fire Nova, and then normal rotation, using CL on MW5 procs. Just keep Fire Nova going as it comes up and Magma totem down. Pull 10k on Twins using this tactic.

[Drogotaar]

thx for the answers so far, i think i have to calrify this:
This setting is with glyphed FireNova.
Now what i tried to explain (baaaaad english i know..) is:

Timeline: 0----0,5----1----1,5----2----2,5----3----3,5----4
Method 1: FN------------CL-------------SS--------------FN-
Method 2: FN------------CL-------------GAP!---FN----------

Now i think this should clarify it: Is this GAP! between the 2nd FireNova really worth waiting? Since i can't sim this in any way i have no clue how to test it.
Ofc these are only really small numbers but i bet on heroic Deathwhisper 25 or Dreamwalker i really want to maximise every single point of DPS i can.

[Hexaholic]

Do not glyph Fire Nova, it is not worth it over WF.

[Drogotaar]

Do not glyph Fire Nova, it is not worth it over WF.

Cmon that's not the Point. I FS is a 40 DPS increase over WF, while WF is a 30DPS increase over FN. Now the point in Anub 25 Heroic i really use Fire Nova extremly frequently and im really happy with the glyph, same goes with Lady Deathwhisper, Gunship and Marrowgar heavy melee spikes. I know exactly the numbers as you could see in the opening post since the use of enhsim is really no use in this special calc.

[Deleted]

Cmon that's not the Point. I FS is a 40 DPS increase over WF, while WF is a 30DPS increase over FN. Now the point in Anub 25 Heroic i really use Fire Nova extremly frequently and im really happy with the glyph, same goes with Lady Deathwhisper, Gunship and Marrowgar heavy melee spikes. I know exactly the numbers as you could see in the opening post since the use of enhsim is really no use in this special calc.

You seem to be missing the point of how a priority queue works. If you put FN at the very top of your queue then it will be used the instant its off cooldown and therefore the sim CAN answer your question.

[Spongy]

My point earlier is you cant really play enhancement at a high level and not know wether you should be CL LB LL or FN watch boss cds for adds spawns etc and adjust to your situation if you gunna have to switch whatever. On sauf i do my normal rotation. On aoe packs if your in a guild will die fast get ure nova off fast you never really get a situation where you can say get into a aoe rotation. Just do your normal rotation but bump spells to the top if that makes sense. You shouldnt really be worried about your aoe dps tbh

[Deleted]

Regular readers might not be surprised to learn I use ShockAndAwe to assist me in managing my priorities.

The author of this mod recently added a feature so you could change your priority list on the fly during combat. Thus making it incredibly simply to be alerted to what abilities are available that do the highest dps during AoE situations.

Whilst the old adage "trash doesn't matter" is true, if you can easily switch to doing higher dps for trash why wouldn't you do that? Why would you deliberately do lower dps? The same is true during boss fights with AoE phases. Why would you not wish to do the maximum possible damage?

[Butu]

You seem to be missing the point of how a priority queue works. If you put FN at the very top of your queue then it will be used the instant its off cooldown and therefore the sim CAN answer your question.

What you cannot sim is that how many mobs do you need in a pack that waiting for Fire Nova cd is worth it. Obviously it is worth waiting with enough mobs, but how many, that is impossible to sim at the moment, cause there is no option to wait for cooldowns in Enhsim.

I myself have alternate spec with FN glyph, and with around 4-5 mobs I usually only do one special attack after FN and then wait for the cd, instead of doing two attacks and not being able to use FN exactly on every cd.

[MrSplash]

Whilst the old adage "trash doesn't matter" is true

Amen to that.
Plus, how can you argue with Levva? He's a fucking genius.

[Barawr]

What you cannot sim is that how many mobs do you need in a pack that waiting for Fire Nova cd is worth it. Obviously it is worth waiting with enough mobs, but how many, that is impossible to sim at the moment, cause there is no option to wait for cooldowns in Enhsim.

I myself have alternate spec with FN glyph, and with around 4-5 mobs I usually only do one special attack after FN and then wait for the cd, instead of doing two attacks and not being able to use FN exactly on every cd.

Waiting for CDs has ALWAYS been a dps loss and I would go as far as to say this applies directly to AOE fights as well. Get off that last ES, CL, etc. instead of waiting 1-2 secs for FN to come back up. By the time the GCD has completed it will be up and ready to use.

[Deleted]

What you cannot sim is that how many mobs do you need in a pack that waiting for Fire Nova cd is worth it. Obviously it is worth waiting with enough mobs, but how many, that is impossible to sim at the moment, cause there is no option to wait for cooldowns in Enhsim.

I myself have alternate spec with FN glyph, and with around 4-5 mobs I usually only do one special attack after FN and then wait for the cd, instead of doing two attacks and not being able to use FN exactly on every cd.

Nor is there ever going to be. Waiting for something to come off cooldown could only ever be of any use on trash and the sim doesn't care about trash. Seriously don't get why you'd want to lower dps by hanging around waiting. Sounds almost like an AFK slacker padding dps by doing AoE. You don't play a mage as well do you?

[Butu]

Nor is there ever going to be. Waiting for something to come off cooldown could only ever be of any use on trash and the sim doesn't care about trash. Seriously don't get why you'd want to lower dps by hanging around waiting. Sounds almost like an AFK slacker padding dps by doing AoE. You don't play a mage as well do you?

I totally understand enhancement dps and never wait for cooldowns in single target situations and usually never in trash. Seems like instead of giving this idea even a little thought you are more interested in ridiculing cooldown waiting. We are talking about max dps in AOE situations.

Being able to use FN exactly on every CD would be a dps increase if there were enough mobs in the pack. Hypothetical situation: there are million mobs in the pack, and there is no aoe dmg cap. Sitting without gear and using glyphed FN on every cooldown over one minute would yield around 20 x 1338 x 1000000 ~ 26760 x 10^6 damage + minor shit from single-target attacks and CL. Now with haste at 500 (good geared enhancement shaman has around this) GCD after spellcast gets pushed to around 1,30. If you push two special attacks between Fire novas its usually one melee attack + one spell, so the average time between FN casts would be 1,30 + 1,30 + 1,5 = 4,1. Since there are so many mobs we ignore other attacks than FN. So in one minute you would get 15 (rounded up) fire novas which equal to 15 x 1338 x 1000000 ~ 20070 x 10^6 damage. This is just an oversized example to make sure you are thinking what I'm thinking.

Naturally in the game you have aoe cap equal to damage caused to 10 mobs, and you also can't ignore damage from special attacks. I don't even want to try that formula with less mobs since it's so far from real situations, but I hope you got my idea and can now skip ridiculing cooldown waiting and using witty comments and maybe even go as far as test this stuff out for yourselves.

[Deleted]

Sorry but I'm trying to be realistic there IS an AoE cap so using numbers with a million targets isn't going to make your point. The onus on proving you are right is in your court it is not for me to do the maths for you to prove you are right. If you want to make a stand on the issue its up to YOU to prove it. I'm very happy to be shown that with X mobs (where X <=10) if you swap out a glyph out for that fight, if you make sure all the mobs are in a 10 yard range of your totem, if you keep your fire totem up and are doing Fire Nova every 3 seconds that it is a dps increase.

Its a lot of ifs. However by all means do the maths and prove your point the ball is entirely in your court.