Shamans HAVE TO use shields, its the best!!!!11 nerdrage

[Phael]

So, as the topic sais, what makes shields the "best" option for shamans?
I have a staff (heroic Illumination) which is better than my weapon and my shield together, but ofcourse, as I'm a shaman I get tons of whispers like "why dont u use shield you nub" and so on.
So I was wondering, will blizzard ever actually make shamans+shields worth it? Or are there any reasons for shamans to pick shields and weapons over staffs, even though the staff is better? For example talents or a spell that applies which gives you a bonus for having a shield?

[pieki]

besides the higher amount of spell power and other "green" stats (haste hit etc.)? nope

[phyrix]

The only valid explanation I can think of is that as a mail class carrying a shield us shamans aren't that fragile as other casters/healers.

But as elemental or resto there's no reason to pass on a staff if it's an upgrade in every way.

[Tommorello]

if a staff is better than what you have, go for it. but typically for a shaman weapon+ shield will be a better combination

[Narfwak]

I don't think I've ever seen a staff that was actually an upgrade over MH + OH. Shields are one of the only things that have been consistently well itemized throughout WotLK and I don't see why you'd turn down what is effectively a free doubling of your armor for generally inferior stats.

[phyrix]

I don't think I've ever seen a staff that was actually an upgrade over MH + OH. Shields are one of the only things that have been consistently well itemized throughout WotLK and I don't see why you'd turn down what is effectively a free doubling of your armor for generally inferior stats.

That's kinda the point I was making. Talent or gameplay wise, they're no reason not to use a staff.
But generally a mainhand + shield will always have better stats.

[Phael]

When, in a PvE situation is a shaman carrying a shield less fragile? You're not supposed to get hit, even if you do, its quite possible the boss will oneshot you anyway for not being defence capped, which makes that shield useless, I'm just trying to figure out why blizzard still havent given us a reason to actually wear shields, I just spent a few minutes comparing the best shields+weapons over the best staffs in ICC, and from what ive seen staffs have far better stats then weapon+shield for shamans. so prove me wrong

[Mekia]

When you are really unlucky with weapons or Shields (Still have naxx shield xD) why not. And no, there is no reason for us to MUST have a Shield. Get what is an upgrade to you, as long as you dont steal it from classes who have no "other" options than having a offhand thingy or staff etc.

PS: When you need a shield to defend yourself other than in pvp your raid does something really wrong.

[Rupal]

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=60653

Shamans and paladins are the only healing classes that can enchant their offhands. Thats a pretty decent benefit right there.

[Phael]

25 intellect, when you already have more intellect on a staff than weapon+shield, and you get 81SP rather than 63SP

either way, new shield enchants which actually work for lets say, elemental shamans? cos o'boy, them elementals sure stack intellect for that crit, and their massive manapools, which seem to run low like immediately..

[Fromon]

Last I checked, there's an enchant giving a good amount of SP (more than 63) to staves.

There shouldn't be much reason to get shields; the only reason I can come up is that there isn't much contending for shields, other than the holy paladin.

[Marath]

Ok so I went and looked at the stats on the staff you are using vs the shield/weapon I am using...

Illuminaiton
73 Stam
103 Int
[ ] Blue
[ ] Blue
[ ] Yellow
621 Sp (771 with Gems and enchant)
117 Haste
117 Crit

This is where its a little biased as I have 25 man gear... but I will try to address that later.

Blade of Tarasque
Bastion of Purity

113 Stam
130 Int (155 With Enchant)
[ ] Yellow
[ ] Blue
792 Spell Power (901 with Gems and enchant)
114 Haste
57 Crit
51 Hit

Weapon + Shield has more stam (+40)
Weapon + Shield has more int (+52)
Weapon + Shield has more Spell Power (+130)
Weapon + Shield has less Haste (-3)
Weapon + Shield has less Crit (-60)
Weapon + Shield has more Hit (+51)

Ok so to address the ilvl issue... I am just gonna find a 258 staff... actually... there isnt one without spirit and that wouldnt be a fair comparison... so here is the one from 10 man ICC hard mode... ilvl 264

Abracadaver
123 Stam
138 Int
[ ] Red
[ ] Blue
741 Spell Power (868 with Gems and enchant)
111 Hit
150 Haste
Use: Summons a Cadaver to protect you for 1 min

Weapon + Shield has more int (+17)
Weapon + Shield has Less Stam (-10)
Weapon + Shield still has more spell power (+33)
Weapon + Shield has less Hit (-60)
Weapon + Shield Has less Haste (-36)
Weapon + Shield has more Crit (+57)
Staff has a Use effect, currently unknown as to what it does exactly.

Remember though this is even with an ilvl difference of 6 in favour of the staff over the weapon + shield. I think they come out pretty well.

Also a pretty significant reason why shaman should use shield + weapon over a staff... like you see the problem i had trying to find a comparison for the 258 weapon... very few staves come without spirit... and that is a wasted stat for shaman. The ones that have only int and stam are few and far between.

If its an upgrade... its an upgrade... take it... but generally a weapon + shield will come out ahead of a staff of the same ilvl

[Hegar]

Damn you Marath! Beat me to the math. I'll post my results anyway.

I did a fairly simple test, using the 251 items currently available in ICC10, since there are only 1 of each.

Lockjaw (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/51004/lockjaw/) + Lost Pavise of the Blue Flight (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/51791/l...e-blue-flight/) with +63sp and +25 int respectively:

127 sta
142 int
53 mp5
105 haste
814 SP

Maghari Chieftain's staff (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50805/m...eftains-staff/) with +83sp, and 2x +10 haste, +5mp5 gems (for ease of comparison and giving the staff the benefit of the socket bonus)

101 int
136 spirit
97 sta
156 haste
10 mp5
747 SP


Ignoring useless stats (stam and spirit), moving from the weapon + shield to the staff gives you:

- 41 int
+51 haste
- 43 mp5
- 67 SP

That really is a massive difference in favour of weapon and shield. Just massive.

Finding a staff without spirit might take some of the advantage of weapon + shield away, but realistically - not enough, and good luck finding a staff with no spirit.

If you are having /very/ bad luck with finding a weapon shield combo, a very good staff may tide you over for awhile, but if you are in a guild, you are doing your priest and druid friends a big disservice by taking sub-par items for yourself that could've been great for them.

If you just pug shit, people will be pissed of at you for taking sub-par items even if they are an upgrade.

Weapon and Shield are the way to go.

[Phael]

I understand that weapon+shield is somewhat better in the end, but this thread was about how shamans are branded as shieldcarriers, even tho at some points staffs and such are way better: Lets say http://www.wowhead.com/?item=48036 drops, and you have http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47874+http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47895, makes Illumination a way better option for you as the stats are far superior, but no, youre a shaman, theres no way you get to use a staff, stick to a shield!

There is a priest in the raid, but he has the staff, and there is a warlock, who has a better staff.

So with this message, im out for this year, happy new years

PS. http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...ptulon&n=Phael if you want to check me out, I wasnt talking about myself, more like for shamans in general, my english isnt that great, so i dont really have words for everything.

[Hegar]

I understand that weapon+shield is somewhat better in the end...

It's not that it is better in the end, it is that it is better at every single point that offers a valid and equal comparison.

I understand that you're ele, so Mp5 is a wasted stat for you. Comparing a perfectly itemised staff of higher level to a poorly itemised weapon+shield combo is neither fair nor realistic - you've hit upon a very rare instance where a staff was an upgrade.

In your first post you ask for a reason for shamans to use shields, claiming that there is no incentive. There is an incentive - Weapon + Shield will always come out with better stats in any equal iLvl comparison.

Bemoaning the fact the people are unwilling to give you something for which any alternate item or equal iLvl will be a massive upgrade is not really very useful.

"ZOMG!! That item with +hit on it that is way higher iLvl than the healing item i have now went to a DPS class instead, even though it is technically an upgrade for me!"


Edit: I can edit-in boldness too! :P

[Biernot]

A little better comparison of Staff vs. MH+Shield:

http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=4803...0.3834.0.40113

All ilvl 245, all without useless stats for a shaman.

Staff: +36 crit, +23 haste
MH+Shield: +18 int, +8 sta, +63 sp

MH + Shield is the clear winner.

[Kantgrinder]

What really upsets me is that there isn't any real Elemental weapon in ICC10 so far, just a sword, a Mp5 Dagger and a staff.
And in ICC25, it's a dagger with spirit and another stave.

I guess Elemental Shamans just have to get the battered hilt and their mace version of Quel'Delar...
Oh, Holy Paladins have it even worse, since many lootmasters won't let them roll on swords with hit (although it isn't wasted on them like spirit on shaman, for judgements...)
I'm so looking forward to Cataclysm, when shaman will finally be able to use all that spirit on weapons, necklaces, rings and backs and you don't have to argue with people if you roll on unusual items because of poor itemization.

[Zagga]

Intellect enchant absolutely makes a shield musthave for resto. Int is not that important to elemental, but it is more stats and the crit could be usefull. Weapon + shield always come out as the best for your usable stats anyway. But I think people are being too light about the armor increase as well. A shield gives a massive increase in armor, we do get hit from time to time, even in raids. Just think about faction champions, kobolts, small adds on anub, just spawned add/melee mc'ed next to you on 2nd boss off icc, not sure how gunship battle is working for dps but I can see some hits there as well. Thing is, ele/resto shamans are balanced around carrying shields, and it makes up for our terrible escape abilities.

[Zagga]

What really upsets me is that there isn't any real Elemental weapon in ICC10 so far, just a sword, a Mp5 Dagger and a staff.
And in ICC25, it's a dagger with spirit and another stave.

I guess Elemental Shamans just have to get the battered hilt and their mace version of Quel'Delar...
Oh, Holy Paladins have it even worse, since many lootmasters won't let them roll on swords with hit (although it isn't wasted on them like spirit on shaman, for judgements...)
I'm so looking forward to Cataclysm, when shaman will finally be able to use all that spirit on weapons, necklaces, rings and backs and you don't have to argue with people if you roll on unusual items because of poor itemization.

There aren't any proper ele weapons in the entire lootlist of icc right now. This doesn't need to be a bad thing tho, since the Lich King's loot is still unknown, I am guessing he has imba shaman gear, he was after all a shaman once.

[Marath]

To Kantgrinder above, a great idea your raid might want to take up (this is assuming you guys dont already do ToGC 25 man... if you do... then I apologise)

Anyway... if you don't do ToGC then a fanstastic weapon for elemental shaman drops from the very first boss, beasts isnt going to be all that hard when you guys start getting some of the shiny ICC 25 man loot. You could quite easily come back with your raid once you overgear the fights and kill beasts a couple times to get the dagger. That would keep the ele shaman happy... just have to hope the raid understands that this would be to help the shaman and none of the loot whores get rollhappy and ninja the dagger :P

But yes... ICC loot is very very disappointing so far, its starting to look like Ulduar and the only decent weapon for ele shaman there dropped from Yogg 25... as we still do not know what arthas' loot table looks like... I am praying for a decent drop on that boss