Confused with trinket combination

[danoob]

The difference is very small. We throw out attacks every ~.4 seconds. They both normally proc within 50 seconds.

Also, hit is very bad. You are perfectly fine with 0 hit. The main reason you have hit is to raise your crit cap.

whut... i don't think i know how the combat table werks. enlightenmeplesas

[Melonberry]

whut... i don't think i know how the combat table werks. enlightenmeplesas

Your (white) crit cap is 100% - glancing - miss - dodge. Glancing is stuck at 24%. So, assuming you are crit and expertise capped, any crit over 76% is wasted, as you cannot reduce glancing. That 76% lowers as your chance to hit and dodge lowers.
The same is true for other moves, but they aren't subject to glancing. Of course, FB for example gets 25% crit from talents, so assuming hit and exp capped, any crit over 75% is wasted.

If you had 8% miss and 6.5% dodge, any crit over 60.5% would be wasted on FB (61.5 on white).
60.5% is easily attainable and thus, you need hit and expertise to raise the cap more toward the 75%.

Assuming crit didn't work this way, hit and expertise would have pretty much 0 value.

[Dorden]

Why is beeing over hit cap that bad that you really need to get it lower? (Not flaming, I don't really know)

Because he/she or whoever is so stupid, having a lot hit isn't the problem (if you aren't over DW hit cap which is really not realistical if you don't want it), for me and high end rogues problem is lack of hit and need to gem for it to rise crit cap. /offtopic

I may aswell contribute, I haven't read all the comments and I apologize if this is said before but if you get hit capped from other gear, take NES?

[avengingbt]

Your (white) crit cap is 100% - glancing - miss - dodge. Glancing is stuck at 24%. So, assuming you are crit and expertise capped, any crit over 76% is wasted, as you cannot reduce glancing. That 76% lowers as your chance to hit and dodge lowers.
The same is true for other moves, but they aren't subject to glancing. Of course, FB for example gets 25% crit from talents, so assuming hit and exp capped, any crit over 75% is wasted.

If you had 8% miss and 6.5% dodge, any crit over 60.5% would be wasted on FB (61.5 on white).
60.5% is easily attainable and thus, you need hit and expertise to raise the cap more toward the 75%.

Assuming crit didn't work this way, hit and expertise would have pretty much 0 value.

Whilst you're right in how the crit cap affects the value of hit/expertise, you're wrong in saying that hit and expertise would be worthless without the crit cap.

1) Having 14.5% of your melee swings avoided would be a significant cut to your dps and clearcasting procs
2) All the avoided rake/rip/mangles would severely cut your uptimes, a loss to your dps and potentially your raid if you're mangling
3) It would be much harder to empty your energy during berserk, lowering the value of berserk
4) A string of avoided attacks will cause you to cap your energy more often, wasting energy

It makes a pretty significant difference. Missing a few percent is alright, I raided with 5% avoided for a long while with no real noticable problems, but 14.5% would seriously mess with your dps.

[kliffharry]

Because he/she or whoever is so stupid, having a lot hit isn't the problem (if you aren't over DW hit cap which is really not realistical if you don't want it), for me and high end rogues problem is lack of hit and need to gem for it to rise crit cap. /offtopic

I may aswell contribute, I haven't read all the comments and I apologize if this is said before but if you get hit capped from other gear, take NES?

Did you read what forum you were in?

OT: I use NeS and DMC and i like NES because of the 2% crit

[Fojos]

Depends on your class really. Rogues who gem agi over ArP or AP will have a really high crit rate and will get closer to the same proc rate. In addition some rogues (I know my gf has this problem) are stuck well over the hit cap and are using lower ilevel pieces just to get under, making the NES a better option.

TLDR Depends on your class and gear which is better.

Hmm, over which cap? For rogues it doesn't matter if you go over the poison cap anymore. Hit is still a very good stat.

Right now hit is still a very good stat even at over 500 hit. (for rogues) Mostly because of the high crit rates.

Hit only being good until the poison-cap is what you used in Ulduar and ToC, not after 3.3.

[getefix]

Also, hit is very bad. You are perfectly fine with 0 hit. The main reason you have hit is to raise your crit cap.

I would think it's so we can actually generate combo points reliably...

[Mr_Bojangles]

Also, hit is very bad. You are perfectly fine with 0 hit. The main reason you have hit is to raise your crit cap.

until you hit yellow cap, every 1% of hit literally increases your dps by 1%, and its easiest to get hit

[danoob]

Your (white) crit cap is 100% - glancing - miss - dodge. Glancing is stuck at 24%. So, assuming you are crit and expertise capped, any crit over 76% is wasted, as you cannot reduce glancing. That 76% lowers as your chance to hit and dodge lowers.
The same is true for other moves, but they aren't subject to glancing. Of course, FB for example gets 25% crit from talents, so assuming hit and exp capped, any crit over 75% is wasted.

If you had 8% miss and 6.5% dodge, any crit over 60.5% would be wasted on FB (61.5 on white).
60.5% is easily attainable and thus, you need hit and expertise to raise the cap more toward the 75%.

Assuming crit didn't work this way, hit and expertise would have pretty much 0 value.

I still disagree on the hit and expertise having pretty much 0 value. I think the spreadsheets will agree with me. Cap hit first for the greatest dps gain per ilevel of gear used. Cap exp second for the second greatest dps gain per ilevel of gear used. This is for rogues though and not kitty druids, so maybe I just don't know enough about druids.

[Alski]

I still disagree on the hit and expertise having pretty much 0 value. I think the spreadsheets will agree with me. Cap hit first for the greatest dps gain per ilevel of gear used. Cap exp second for the second greatest dps gain per ilevel of gear used. This is for rogues though and not kitty druids, so maybe I just don't know enough about druids.

Druid forum, we dont want to hear about rogues :P
Anyway as for druids hit & expertise are valued the same and in most cases (in terms of dps gain) agi/ArP > hit/expertise but since druids generaly run 60++% crit in raids its worth aiming to get close to the cap from both with just gear. having none at this point in the game is just stupid, geming for it is also stupid unless certain conditions are met.

[Fornaw]

until you hit yellow cap, every 1% of hit literally increases your dps by 1%, and its easiest to get hit

As a couple other druids have pointed out in this forum, this is not true for feral. Since feral must occasionally pool energy there are time gaps in the dps priorities, further energy on finishers that fail to land is largely refunded. Still hit and expertise are not worthless stats, a piece with ArP and hit will most likely beat hands down a piece with ArP and crit at the same ilvl and assuming you aren't hit capped.

[Fbl]

I wouldn't use gt and nns at the same time because rng was never my friend and I'm to lazy to equip/unequip trinket

gt and nns uptime depends on haste, hit, expertise and crit (and rng aka luck) so I can't give you any math
but
It's pretty accurate to say (for decently geared druid) that gt will proc in 0-3 sec after internal cd while nns will proc after 5-15sec
so if you're hit capped question is if 2% crit chance is more valuable than 10seconds slower arp uptime
so... go nuke some dummies and check it out for yourself...
I have low crit chance so nns was winner for me... it made my rotation a lot easier

[Sylar Hao]

Thanks to all the replays.

Actually I am hit flooded, 554 XD and 59% crit selfbuffed. I've done a few raids with both trinkets and you all were right, the combo is not worthwhile. Although the times I was around ArP cap thanks to both trinkets proccing at different times almost all time was really nice, the times when none of them were proccing become a dps loss, +90agi from DMC full uptime is always better than just hit or crit when you're capped.

I've also run a few heroics (though heroics aren't really a good test) with DCM and NeS and, although it procs less than GT, the extra crit rating seems to become a dps increase.

Now I have another question. Like I said, I actually have around 59% crit selfbuffed, and when raiding I often see myself in hard moments when combo points generation screws my dps down because of special attacks not dealing critical strikes. You know, 5 or 6 conssecutive attacks that makes my rotation fail.

Are you seeing yourselves in this situation too or is it me?
Thanks.

[malacoda]

What is the feral community's opinion on the frost badge trinket? Herkuml War token, I am thinking of getting one. Melee hits are roughly 30-33% of my dps so while i usually dont try and get haste, it doesnt seem like such a bad thing. I have read that the attack power when averaged with its uptime makes roughly 340 static attack power. With our fast attack speed rampup time for this would be pretty low. I am using Coriums coaster and banner of victory at the moment, still gemming agility only, and sitting at 59.5 crit no buffs. Over hit cap and under exp cap.

On a side note, I am wondering as the ArmPen hard cap is reached by more and more people, will haste become an increasingly desireable stat? It seems to me like it would be, but im no feral pro by anymeans, only been a raiding cat for 6 months or so. This toon was an old 39 twink that i lvled, now i wish i had done it sooner, my other toons just collect dust

[Melonberry]

Whilst you're right in how the crit cap affects the value of hit/expertise, you're wrong in saying that hit and expertise would be worthless without the crit cap.

1) Having 14.5% of your melee swings avoided would be a significant cut to your dps and clearcasting procs
2) All the avoided rake/rip/mangles would severely cut your uptimes, a loss to your dps and potentially your raid if you're mangling
3) It would be much harder to empty your energy during berserk, lowering the value of berserk
4) A string of avoided attacks will cause you to cap your energy more often, wasting energy

It makes a pretty significant difference. Missing a few percent is alright, I raided with 5% avoided for a long while with no real noticable problems, but 14.5% would seriously mess with your dps.

1 is the main reason to get hit/exp. But it's still ~30% of your damage that is affected by it.
Rake and rip don't need to be at 100% uptime which is why we can use FB to raise our dps. Also, unless you chain miss several in a row (which can happen with even .01% chance to miss) it won't affect your uptime nearly as much as using FB will.
I've actually raided with 0 hit and expertise, it really isn't an issue emptying your energy during berserk or capping energy. It is REALLY annoying to do the rotation though. If rake only has an 80% chance of working, you have half a second to react and press it again, or move on.

until you hit yellow cap, every 1% of hit literally increases your dps by 1%, and its easiest to get hit

1% hit is closer to .3% dps, as it mainly affects white (And to a minor extent, clearcasting and energy capping)

As a couple other druids have pointed out in this forum, this is not true for feral. Since feral must occasionally pool energy there are time gaps in the dps priorities, further energy on finishers that fail to land is largely refunded. Still hit and expertise are not worthless stats, a piece with ArP and hit will most likely beat hands down a piece with ArP and crit at the same ilvl and assuming you aren't hit capped.

Actually, the arp/hit piece will almost never beat the arp/crit piece, unless you are approaching the crit cap. Feral is an odd class where misses really don't lower your dps.

Now I have another question. Like I said, I actually have around 59% crit selfbuffed, and when raiding I often see myself in hard moments when combo points generation screws my dps down because of special attacks not dealing critical strikes. You know, 5 or 6 conssecutive attacks that makes my rotation fail.
Are you seeing yourselves in this situation too or is it me?
Thanks.

All the time, then again the opposite happens all the time too. The only way to fix it would be 100% crit though, which would be a waste. RNG screws everyone sometime.

What is the feral community's opinion on the frost badge trinket? Herkuml War token, I am thinking of getting one. Melee hits are roughly 30-33% of my dps so while i usually dont try and get haste, it doesnt seem like such a bad thing. I have read that the attack power when averaged with its uptime makes roughly 340 static attack power. With our fast attack speed rampup time for this would be pretty low. I am using Coriums coaster and banner of victory at the moment, still gemming agility only, and sitting at 59.5 crit no buffs. Over hit cap and under exp cap.

On a side note, I am wondering as the ArmPen hard cap is reached by more and more people, will haste become an increasingly desireable stat? It seems to me like it would be, but im no feral pro by anymeans, only been a raiding cat for 6 months or so. This toon was an old 39 twink that i lvled, now i wish i had done it sooner, my other toons just collect dust

Yes, that is a good trinket. Totally better than both of the ones you listed.

And yes, you are correct that as your stats raise, haste becomes more and more valuable. For feral, more white damage and more OOC procs. It's likely to fall behind crit again with 4pt10 though.