Badge Gear and Raid Progression from a Casual’s Point of View

[Simonzi]

In Ulduar, I raided in top 50 world ranked guild, clearing all the hard modes. For multiple reasons I stopped raiding, and took a break for a while. I've been back for some time, now in a guild with some real life friends, that's more on the casual side of raiding. I don't raid with them on their primary raids though, due to a new work schedule. An off night raid here and there, but non consistent raiding, so I spent alot of time playing around with alts. I recently leveled a hunter up to 80, and was pumped at the new gear and emblems dropping. Until, about a week after hitting 80, I had all the gear I could get for upgrades outside of raiding.

Progression is as limited as ever if you don't raid, and are a fresh 80. Now, if you're not a fresh 80, and have been 80 for some time but don't raid, then yes, these changes have provided a new upgrade path at each patch. But for a fresh 80, you can get all your gear in a week or two, then have nothing to do.

[highwind01]

When I hit 70 back in TBC, shortly before the Kara nerf, I met this guy who was gearing up his 5th alt, and he had geared them all up starting from Kara, through Gruul and Maggi, ZA, etc. up to BT. Good players were still running these raids on their alts, and everyone had to go through raid progression in order to gear up.

Sorry, but thats plain wrong.

People ran Karazhan, thats right.
But they didnt do it for the gear that dropped there, they did it for emblems because u could buy bt/mh-level stuff (including weapons) from it.
Pretty much noone raidet Maggi/Ssc/Tk since the prequest for bt/mh wasnt crucial anymore for entering and zul aman was opended. Some raidet Gruul since Dragonspine Trophy was "teh shit" at that time.

I for myself are more progress orientated than "casual" and I especially like good geared alts... and I really like the system like it is at the moment.

[grimkiller]

This new system has two sides of the coin.

New 80, never raided before, does a few heroics and BAM! has a decent gearscore.
Joins a raid for 25 ToC, gear check looks okay, but they perform like shit due to not understanding what's going on and gets kicked. This happens here and there, maybe more often for certain servers.

Flip side.

New 80 alt, player has raided since Vanilla, does heroics, gets the gear and BAM! is contributing to the current progression raid after a week or two. Your guild gets farther because they leveled a tank/healer/whatever to help the guild move on.

Think of it this way, if people HAD to go through Naxx, then Ulduar, etc. it would take waaaay too long because progress has left those raids behind. Now, if you could run these older raids and get to choose which loot drops when, that would be different, but if I level a new 80 and am forced to run Naxx for months on end because RNG hates me, that would be motivation to NOT play that alt, and for some, to not play the game.

The new system is not my ideal way of doing things, but it's a necessary evil that works effectively and, for the most part, benefits the majority of the community.

TL;DR: It's working as intended.

[Deng]

1) If someone hits level 80 with their main right now, why wouldn’t they want to start with Naxx and go through all the raids before they hit ICC?

That was a major guildbreaker back then. The top end guild from each server recruiting top tanks (eight 4pc T3 equipped warriors say hi) and healers from other guilds, leaving them broken for days/weeks because you had to recruit people from guilds with lesser progress to be able to raid again (to be at the same level of raiding).

Then these guilds recruiting people from even more casual guilds or getting alts/newcomers. You had to gear alts/newcomers from the start (or almost from the start and do attunements aswell). Imagine doing Anub in hard mode for 2 weeks then going back for another 4 weeks to naxxramas then ulduar to be able to even enter ToC normal again.

Then "even more casual guilds" stopping raiding/breaking up (or trying desperately to get replacements from the fresh 60', see above).

Now imagine one or more of the key players stopping playing (either in hc guild or casual guild) due to different reasons and you're in trouble again.

Then the trend goes on - the less geared people you had to choose from -> the more drama -> the more guilds halting progress -> guilds dying -> players stopping playing (bad for business you know).

Now you have plenty of people to choose from (even if they stand in the fire, you can easily replace them though, which wasn't the case back then).

2) If players don’t raid, not even casually, why would we want to equip them ready for ToC or ICC?

Actually that one is always funny. People play to the point they feel their progress, that's the human nature.
If they don't feel the progress/feel burned -> they quit.

So in the end it doesn't matter if they are ready for ToC or ICC or whatever else, they just want to feel better than last week. That's the business.

[Borakh]

Highwind, Deng, good points, I'll have to consider those.

So how is that bad for me?

It's bad because if you did not raid Naxx during 3.0 / early 3.1, and did not raid Ulduar during 3.1 / early 3.2, you won't experience these raids at all. Yeah I know, the same is true for Kara and ZA if you weren't raiding in 2.x but that's a lame argument because my point is that you could still be experiencing Naxx and Ulduar if it weren't for the over-inflation of badges.

It's bad because with every new patch, you find yourself forced to farm literally hundreds of badges all over again, which is boring even for casuals. Yeah I know, you don't have to, but that's a lame argument because the question remains, what else are you going to do, if you want to play the game and want to progress?

[Astray]

The reason why people get gear they don't need is because this is a role playing game, people play it to improve their character.
Even if it is not needed, it improves your character. Unneeded defense, unneeded dps, unneeded healing~ but still fun playing and increasing the character.

[jpwkeeper]

Highwind, Deng, good points, I'll have to consider those.

It's bad because if you did not raid Naxx during 3.0 / early 3.1, and did not raid Ulduar during 3.1 / early 3.2, you won't experience these raids at all. Yeah I know, the same is true for Kara and ZA if you weren't raiding in 2.x but that's a lame argument because my point is that you could still be experiencing Naxx and Ulduar if it weren't for the over-inflation of badges.

It's bad because with every new patch, you find yourself forced to farm literally hundreds of badges all over again, which is boring even for casuals. Yeah I know, you don't have to, but that's a lame argument because the question remains, what else are you going to do, if you want to play the game and want to progress?

Your logic has one fatal flaw. You phrase it as if the choice is experiencing these raids or jumping over them right to ICC.

In reality, it's jumping to ICC or not raiding.

Before ToC came out, the road to Ulduar ran through Naxx. I had just leveled my holy priest to 80 and was ready to raid.

And got nowhere. Maybe once per week I got to go into Naxx for 2 hours or so with a bunch of alts. Never did more than 2 wings, only got maybe 3 drops total, then even that dried up as people were busy with the new content. I was basically screwed; I had missed the raid train.

Naxx didn't die because of the emblem changes; Naxx was dead before they happened. I was there.

I stopped raiding with my hunter recently. I'm back, and I can't get a ToC group together to save my life. But I'm gearing up through LFG and I'm almost up to ICC level in a very short amount of time.

It sucks that raids like Naxx, Ulduar, ToC, Sarth, and even Maly get left behind. But I just don't see a viable alternative, and the one you propose isn't viable.

[Aknot]

Highwind, Deng, good points, I'll have to consider those.

It's bad because if you did not raid Naxx during 3.0 / early 3.1, and did not raid Ulduar during 3.1 / early 3.2, you won't experience these raids at all. Yeah I know, the same is true for Kara and ZA if you weren't raiding in 2.x but that's a lame argument because my point is that you could still be experiencing Naxx and Ulduar if it weren't for the over-inflation of badges.

I understand now. Ok but then what about the people that DONT want to run Naxx/Uld like on alts or just have no desire to group with 9/24 other people?

[Keoren]

To clarify, the 'casual' blizzard designed the emblem change for is the one who a) raids rarely or even b) never raids but still wants progression.

Actually from what I've understood, it's designed so people can pick up with the current progression level instead of having to start from the beginning. It's not "here's free loot for those of you who don't want to raid".

[Grob]

It's not "here's free loot for those of you who don't want to raid".

But it works.

[Keoren]

It's a result, but not the purpose. I never argued against this.

[dweidman]

It's bad because if you did not raid Naxx during 3.0 / early 3.1, and did not raid Ulduar during 3.1 / early 3.2, you won't experience these raids at all. Yeah I know, the same is true for Kara and ZA if you weren't raiding in 2.x but that's a lame argument because my point is that you could still be experiencing Naxx and Ulduar if it weren't for the over-inflation of badges.

It's bad because with every new patch, you find yourself forced to farm literally hundreds of badges all over again, which is boring even for casuals. Yeah I know, you don't have to, but that's a lame argument because the question remains, what else are you going to do, if you want to play the game and want to progress?

Hm.

I think you are confusing "bad" with "not the way you want it to be". There is nothing inherently "bad" about missing obsolete instances.

Moreover - your second paragraph identifies "progress" as the goal of the game - yet your idea is terrible for that purpose. If running the old instances were more effective at gearing - then people would be doing it. One of the huge successes of 3.3 is the LFG tool (and the ability to get pugs running quickly) - only relied upon by 4 others. The instances you are discussing require 9 others (and aren't cross-realm) - so I am not sure you understand the word, "casual".

I just can't wrap my head around why others have issues with how someone else gets gear. Why does it (really) matter to you? Does it really bother you that someone you will never raid with has decent gear, too, without having wiped in Naxx?

[Arcangel14]

How do you define "no time" if you farm T9 in two days? /sigh. Hypocrite.
Run HoR with complete iLevel 200 and lower (=levelling gear) group. Fuck you have no idea how much fun and challenging those instances are with avg. iLvl 219 because you always raid on progression and thus are overequipped which makes the instances easy. Having these instances "on progression" was really fun. Yay for CC.
You just prove my point that you've lost every relation to realism when it comes to difficulty of instances in starter gear. You probably don't even know what true starter gear is. If you don't get carried by your ToC+ equipped guild members through instances to equip your alt it wouldn't be that easy.

In absolutly no way does that make me a hypocrite.
Do you even know what a hypocrite is?
I didnt farm heroics for my T9, soon to be T10, and im saying you shouldnt be able to farm heroics for T9, so exactly how does that make me a hypocrite? lol
And not was I carried to my gear, and worked for it and earned it, so whatever you say bro.
And considering ive been raiding since Vanilla, and both times when i hit 70 and 80 I only had ilevel 200 blues and a few level 200 epics, im pretty sure i know what starter gear is......
Good job assuming you know everything about every single person who makes a post.

[Lynore]

And considering ive been raiding since Vanilla, and both times when i hit 70 and 80 I only had ilevel 200 blues and a few level 200 epics,

Nice job at getting that ilvl 200 gear on level 70, you must be awesome.

[anyaka21]

I think one of the issues is that there isn't an incentive for people to run Naxx anymore, whether that be 10 or 25. The weekly is just 1st boss easy and thus it's over in 10 mins. Only 1 badge per boss keeps guilds and PuG raids to a minimum because in the time it takes to organize one, you could have run 5 5mans and really not worry to much about strat or wipes.

Back in TBC, most guilds would have people who ran kara weekly, 2 or 3 times because it was easy and 2 badges per boss made the incentive worth the time. The same should happen in Naxx. It would get Naxx running again, and help people gear up.

[Melonberry]

There was badge progression in tbc...This whole post pretends there wasn't. It was infact, even easier to gear up in tbc than it is now.

[Hunterwep]

The thing is, everybody has nice gear: ilvl232 at lowest now

So you queue for random heroic and join an AWESOME WTF BLANKET geared group

Then the ppl start to pull off 1700-2000dps, WOAH!


/end nerdrage

[Melonberry]

No.

LOL.

Just NO.


I like WotLK badge system for reasons i mentioned above, but gearing up TBC alts was WAY harder than now, with less choice than there is now, less actual gear to select, and took a much longer time.

There is no limit to how many badges you can farm in a single day in WotLK, whereas once you was locked in an instance in TBC there was no way to get any more badges.

There was a limit to badges before this patch. And it was much lower than TBC (Which was balanced around more badges)

I know I was able to gear up easier. I never said faster. It was pretty easy to get carried through stuff by your guildies though, since we are talking about alts. Even without them carrying you, it wasn't harder than it is now.

[Caradinist]

There was a limit to badges before this patch. And it was much lower than TBC (Which was balanced around more badges)

I know I was able to gear up easier. I never said faster. It was pretty easy to get carried through stuff by your guildies though, since we are talking about alts. Even without them carrying you, it wasn't harder than it is now.

Servers may vary.

I know for sure very few people ever ran heroics in my server during burning crusade, and the pugs sucked. There was a peak of heroic running back when the mini bosses in Mechanar dropped their own badges, and that's about it.

But since we're talking about guildies, and alts, i'm sure no matter what timeline of wow you you played in, if they were good players and you trusted them, then it's easier, regardless.

So, let's say you want to purchase all of Tier 9 lvl232 for your alt. 30+30+150= 210. that's five pieces, 210 badges. Very impressive gear, and is above the expectations for Ice crown citadel, the final raid. With the dungeon finder, with total strangers, i'd say you could get an average of 50 badges (If DPS,25-30 due to waiting time), and more with guildies.

Now, let's go back to burning crusade, say you, levelled up a paladin alt, to make him holy, and you wanted some top quality gear. So you want the ecclesiastical cuirass, and the gavel of naaru blessings AND anveena's touch? that's 310 badges for three items. Try making 310 badges within a week or two without guildies and dungeon finder.


I'm sure people who have played the original game would point out something worse, but all i'm trying to say is. We've come a long way. In all MMORPGs There will always be people who miss out on content and others who may not know what they are doing. Gear is no longer a symbol of recognition, titles and achievements now are.

All the gear in the world wont mean anything unless you put it to good use and get yourself a title of "I played with 9-24 others to stomp on a big boss". It's what everybody agrees on. Gear does not equal skill.

[Fornaw]

I understand now. Ok but then what about the people that DONT want to run Naxx/Uld like on alts or just have no desire to group with 9/24 other people?

If you have no desire to group with people, perhaps an MMORPG isn't for you.

I'm growing more Meh about the badge changes, it does some nice things but imperfectly, some changes I would suggest:
* I would like to see the top tier raid rewarding significantly more top tier raid badges per week than heroics/weekly raids, I don't dislike gates per se, but this makes them ridiculous.
* I would prefer 10 man raids do not drop the same badges as 25, it makes 10 ICC mandatory progression for 25 ICC for several months.
* I would like to see incentives to run Naxx and Uld even if the gear is out of date, preferably not frost emblems because that has issues with the above.

I think this could be solved in cataclysm by a 3 tiered badge system, lowest tier is from heroics, second tier is from old 25s/the new 10, highest tier from new 25 and "end wing"/hardmode bosses of the new 10. Then bump them all up each time a new content patch hits.

Pros
Gear progression is much more interesting than currently for all levels of play
Incentives to run old raids for new characters/players
Badge costs of new items can be reduced (remember the price of valor/conquest items compared to current items?)
Top tier raiders no longer forced to log on every day (ah the good ol days) and raid 10 every week

Cons
Harder to get a new player into endgame raiding (though they will probably learn something valuable from actually raiding before trying endgame raiding).
Weakens gear progression for 10 man raiders.

You can disagree with me, but I see a game where it takes a top tier raider 2-3 weeks to get a piece of T10, a person who is a casual raider or gearing up 1/2 week to get a piece of T9 and a dungeon runner 3-4 5 mans to get a piece of T8 as a good system.

More likely they will keep doing it as now since their current scheme is more effective at recruiting customers.