Possible warrior aoe tanking ability

[Weena2]

Let DPS warriors, Deathknights and Retribution paladins DPS tank the mobs if they pull aggro, becuse no tank can outtank those if they decide they want aggro. No tank, at all.

Our pally tank does >.>

[Sparkyl]

Dude? have you seen what kind of dps ret pallies pull? Our ret was bashing on dummies for quite a while and on 4 targets he did about 25 k SUSTAINED selfbuffed without wings.

Thats with Righteous Fury of which yeah ret paladins kick out an insane amount but luckily your ret paladins wont be using this ability.

Warrior AoE tanking is the weakest of all the 4 tanks but its no major issue. The only time I remotely struggle is a massive pack like all the whelps in onyxia where a few tend to stray which isnt a major deal. Challenging shout is there as an emergency if its really that bad.

If you wanted to make the ability a bit more appealing to bring the warrior aoe tanking up then it would likely be better to have it leave a debuff on the ground similar to consecration or a small high threat dot applied to the targets when you thunderclap.

However warriors are great all round tankers atm with some high survivability and high mobility. Id rather keep that and be moderately ok at massive aoe tanking than match the other tanks aoe threat abilities.

[Deleted]

Our pally tank does >.>

Then I hate to be an ass, but on a large pull, even a paladin loses aggro, consecration isn't enough and holy shield will get eaten, HoR won't hit all and the paladin will count on outside assistance, such as ToTT'ed FoK's and MD'd vollies.

Bytheway, the last two things I mentioned are great, unless you're too proud to accept assistance.

[Shelly]

Dude? have you seen what kind of dps ret pallies pull? Our ret was bashing on dummies for quite a while and on 4 targets he did about 25 k SUSTAINED selfbuffed without wings. That's abit over 6k dps on each target. I'd need a 10 s buildup on threat to let my ret pally go all out depending on mob health, and he'd catch up eventually. I'm not talking about a 4 target pull here, I'm talking about a pull with maybe 10 mobs and you fight desperately to keep aggro on stuff.

Add a bladestorm in there somewhere on some random mobs and you have a hell of a job. Impossible even, unless you give tanks 10-15 s to get some threat before dps goes in. We all know, that's not how it works

Ofc this is not an issue for warrior tanks only but warriors struggle the most and we can't have a "trash aoe tank specc" as UH dk's neither are we paladins who can keep up quite well and have a very good extra trippletaunt for the ppl who usually pulls aggro. Feral druids should have a hard time as well but I haven't seen one in action in ICC 25 yet.

edit: tricky thing about DS, cleave, bladestorm in big packs is that they hit different things so you might have a good sustained threat on 4 targets but that 5th mob didnt get hit by your cleaves so the arms warrior pulled aggro and died since his bladestorm hit that target.

edit2: I'm not saying we should be able to faceroll wtf pwn trash in the last raid instance this expac, but it's retarded atm, esp on ret paladins and dks as well to some extent

OK, here's the other thing.

DPS aggro is the responsibility of DPS.

If he can't pop salv on himself or bubble when he pulls. He's a fuckup. He's not good at playing his class or he's just gotten too lazy.

Also if that situation - chain DS from 2pc T10 - happens, then he's pulling aggro off of ANY tank. Warrior, bear, dk or paladin. Having a fire and forget AoE - like D&D or consecrate - or just swipe-spam won't keep the mobs all over you in the face of extremely reckless DPS that is unable to manage their AoE threat correctly.

[kassy]

Rolling Thunder
0/2
Requires 40 points in the Protection Tree
Your Thunder Clap ability now has a 25%/50%
chance to cause another Thunder Clap on a
1 second delay, dealing 50%/100% damage.
Thunder Claps resulting from this talent may
trigger it again, but for 25%/50% damage.
Moving will stop the trigger.

Incorperates an idea from the first page, and requires standing still, which you're doing in most cases while tanking, but rarely, if ever in PvP. The delay mechanic can always be modified as well.

you ever find yourself standing completely still for more than 1-2sec when tanking 5+ mobs? cus I sure as hell don't.

[Kalinga]

With seal of command and 2 t10 you can easily do 25k sustained as ret paladin on trash packs (assuming toc25hc+icc gear) Glyph of command makes your mana a nonissue. Seal of command can procc an extra DS for each target it hits, and the procc is 40%. It's almost ALWAYS proccing with SoC. And it can procc from DS itself.

And yes he has a trash specc/libram.

All I'm saying is that warriors is the worst on aoe threat and also trash dps. While this might be acceptible I think all tank classes needs some better scaling to keep up with the dps. I remember in the start of wotlk when you were miles ahead the dps on trash pulls even as warrior tank.

Edit: don't say warriors are better on single target because all other classes are on par with warriors on single target. Also stamina scaling is worst for warriors and our mobility will get a small nerf soon.

ANd to those who say "tab around and do stuff to each mob". Guys we're talking about up to 5k tps on 4+targets. Now I don't know about you but I can pull of 7-9k single target with full rage. pulling 5 k on 4 targets is hard, if possible even without a gimmick specc/glyphs.

[Falnax]

I was hoping to use this as more of a way to come up with new talents that fit the cata description and perhaps even some tricks that warrs have. I would really love to see something better than what thunder clap is at now. If you take a look and compare it to any other class it remains unique because it's not lolconcecrate or wtfspamswipe. It's a nice ability that you can weave into your tanking rotation whether it be single target or aoe but I would like to see something more than just a low damage cookie cutter melée attack speed debuff. The method by which it's used is fine for now and I wouldn't mind having the cooldown lowered but deffinitely not off of a cooldown because then warrior aoe tanking would be almost identical to spamming swipe and maul. The op that I had would also help warriors at levels sub shockwave. With the new dungeon lfg there are alot more lower levels attempting instances that require a semi decent tank (roughly in the high 40s-high 50s) and this would be helpful with aoe threat.

I noticed some people stating above that glyphing for aoe tanking via glyph of cleave and thunderclap would help but Im just not that hardcore about tanking and neither do I have the gold to respec and switch glyphs everytime I would like to dps or arena because even those specs differ as prot. It really shouldn't require a different tanking spec and glyph to come close to as good of an aoe tank as the others. I have tanked as both prot pally and feral Druid and the difficulty of aoe tanking is a joke. Spam swipe/maul and tab for Druids and spam HoR, concecrate, holy shield and nearly nothing will pull.

[Idaho Immortal]

retaliation in defensive stance please.

[Falnax]

retaliation in defensive stance please.

ahh yes because there aren't any caster mobs in aoe pulls like FoS or HoR. To you retaliation may seem like an I.w.I.n. Button but I don't think I like to rely on cooldowns that long for every aoe pull. In comparison that's like being unable to survive each trash pull without using shield wall. There isn't any harm in coming up with creative fun ways to add new possible cata talents that will encourage new tanks without making tanking a mindless job. I think that blizzard would like every class/role easy to learn and simple to play but retain a high skill cap and remain difficult to master, after all that's what makes the game so interesting IMO. You can tell very easily who knows their class and who is just starting out.

[Idaho Immortal]

ahh yes because there aren't any caster mobs in aoe pulls like FoS or HoR. To you retaliation may seem like an I.w.I.n. Button but I don't think I like to rely on cooldowns that long for every aoe pull. In comparison that's like being unable to survive each trash pull without using shield wall. There isn't any harm in coming up with creative fun ways to add new possible cata talents that will encourage new tanks without making tanking a mindless job. I think that blizzard would like every class/role easy to learn and simple to play but retain a high skill cap and remain difficult to master, after all that's what makes the game so interesting IMO. You can tell very easily who knows their class and who is just starting out.

Charge one mob. Thunder Clap. Shattering Throw other caster. Pull is done. I just think retaliation would be nice in defensive stance.

[Leven]

retaliation in defensive stance please.

You could use retaliation, then change to defensive stance and charge in. I thought they'd changed it to work like that, but I had to double-check it just now to make sure. I don't think I've used retaliation for years

[Shelly]

You could use retaliation, then change to defensive stance and charge in. I thought they'd changed it to work like that, but I had to double-check it just now to make sure. I don't think I've used retaliation for years

Yes you can. It's not horrible for trash but on most boss fights you'll want to go with recklessness instead so you can get some guaranteed crits at the start of a pull. (Heroic throw, HS, Shield Slam + Shield Block.)

Back to the issue at hand, warrior AoE tanking is fine. It's meant to be frenetic and hard. You have to rush around, reposition, kick some ass and switch targets. Yes a ret with 2pc t10 will pull off you if they start chaining their DS's, as I said earlier though they'll be able to do that to any tank on an extremely large pull. No tank will be able to handle that amount of aggro and again, dps aggro = dps responsibility. They need to know how to manage it if they want to remain an effective player.

[Deleted]

How about...

Resonating Clap
(down at the level of like Vigilance)
3 seconds after using your Thunder Clap ability you have a 50%/100% chance to activate Resonating Clap which will create a Thunder Clap like effect on the location where you first used Thunder Clap doing no dmg but rather converting the dmg that would have been done into pure threat.


This way effectively you got 1 TC every 3 sec unless you are moving.

Edit: Removed dmg replaced with threat.

[Nookz]

What about a talent that would make thunderclap give a debuff to the mobs with a pulsing effect? Might have a duration between 6-10s. All mobs affected by the debuff will pulse every 1-2s and do damage to nearby mobs transfering the threat to the warrior of course. And to make sure it's not OP, it does less damage per mob based on how many mobs are around. Say it's base damage is like 2k something (just an exemple number). If the pulse will hit 10 mobs, it does 200 damage on each mob. Now assume you used thunderclap and hit all 10 mobs, each of them now has the pulsing effect doing 200 damage per thick. Because it's 10 mobs pulsing now, it will still do 2k damage every 2s or so to every mob in total. The damage can be modified to be in line with what consec and DnD do. So instead of an ability that puts shit on the ground to do aoe damage/threat, we have an ability where we can use the mobs with the pulsing debuff as if there's shit on the ground where they stand. I think the damage can easily be modified to make sure it won't be OP.
It's different from what the OP suggested, but I'm just throwing my idea out there.

Also, I see a lot of people talking about their ret pallies destroying the dps meter in aoe pulls. I'd also like to add that feral druids do the same. We allways pull all the trash at lady deathwhisper at the the same time, and he easily pulls of 30k+ there, it's insane. And no, rotating through the mobs using your abilities won't cut it then .

[Deleted]

What about a talent that would make thunderclap give a debuff to the mobs with a pulsing effect? Might have a duration between 6-10s. All mobs affected by the debuff will pulse every 1-2s and do damage to nearby mobs transfering the threat to the warrior of course. And to make sure it's not OP, it does less damage per mob based on how many mobs are around. Say it's base damage is like 2k something (just an exemple number). If the pulse will hit 10 mobs, it does 200 damage on each mob. Now assume you used thunderclap and hit all 10 mobs, each of them now has the pulsing effect doing 200 damage per thick. Because it's 10 mobs pulsing now, it will still do 2k damage every 2s or so to every mob in total. The damage can be modified to be in line with what consec and DnD do. So instead of an ability that puts shit on the ground to do aoe damage/threat, we have an ability where we can use the mobs with the pulsing debuff as if there's shit on the ground where they stand. I think the damage can easily be modified to make sure it won't be OP.
It's different from what the OP suggested, but I'm just throwing my idea out there.

Also, I see a lot of people talking about their ret pallies destroying the dps meter in aoe pulls. I'd also like to add that feral druids do the same. We allways pull all the trash at lady deathwhisper at the the same time, and he easily pulls of 30k+ there, it's insane. And no, rotating through the mobs using your abilities won't cut it then .

Not a bad idea, but this will quickly become a PvP dot against stealthing and etc. so it will technically be a buff for pvp prot which Blizz seems to dislike

[Sulika]

Warrior AoE threat is fine. Yeah every now and then you get caught when something else gets aggrod and both Thunderclap and Shockwave are on cooldown but that is part of the warrior class. The thing about warrior tanking is that it requires the most work of all the tank classes to play but done correctly it is far and away the most powerful.

If you are having trouble holding aggro in heroics it is either a case of being vastly outgeared or a learn to play issue. If you are having trouble in a raid then you need to be sorting out ToTT and Misdirects. With the new misdirects no tank should ever have trouble holding aggro.

Warrior AoE threat has two big advantages, first it is front loaded, you can charge, thunderclap, shockwave and generate a nice big burst of threat up front and second it is highly mobile, you can move to new spawns and drop an aggro ability there at a moments notice. The trade off you pay for this is its burst nature. Your AoE abilities won't keep ticking threat like a DKs or Paladins.

I would be curious to know exactly what pulls in ICC are giving people trouble. There are a couple of minibosses and the val'kyr that spawn many mobs but those are quite friendly towards warrior, your aoe abilities will be there whenever they spawn to use. A DK has a pain in the ass there as if they spawn when runes are not off cooldown for death and decay you are in a very bad situation and tanking without using runes just in case isn't exactly ideal either. Nearly every other place in the instance each tank will have 2 or 3 adds to pick up.

If you have trouble with AoE threat then use a block set, also you can swap in the Cleaving and Shockwave glyphs to help, use a glyphed vigilance on that unholy DK dropping DnD and you should have no trouble. Crafting glyphs is so cheap as to make them practically free. If you buy the mats on the AH you can craft 3 glyphs for less than the price of a single deaths repair bill.

I would hate to see warrior AoE tanking dumbed down to the point where it was basically paladin tanking but with a rage bar and that is what a lot of you are suggesting. If you want AoE threat that ticks every second there is already two classes that provide that. If you want AoE threat that requires a no cooldown spammable ability there is a tank class that provides that too. You chose the class with the front loaded, bursty aoe threat, the only AoE that also comes with a four second stun. Four seconds of 100% mitigation is fantastic.

If you are having problems it is because you are not doing something right. It is not supposed to be trivial, but it is very possible. Also it is worth adding that I have never been in a raid where a tank got blamed if some DPSer pulled aggro and got one shotted on an AoE pull. Everyone knows that a fully raid buffed DPSer can easily pull aggro if they pick one random add and nuke it as hard as they can. This is true no matter who is tanking it. If they have half a brain they either spam their own AoEs or switch target to another mob as soon as their Omen starts yelling at them. You will often see a couple of DPSers die on trash packs, that is kinda the point.

By the way, the biggest mistake I see warriors making in heroics is misuse of shockwave. They use it everytime it comes off of cooldown and often dont have it available when they pull. In heroics you should charge-thunderclap-shockwave every time. You should never use shockwave again unless you are absolutely sure it will take more time to finish the current pack and pull the next than it will take for the cooldown on shockwave to finish. Thunderclap alone will not give you enough aggro reliably for a full pull. Thunderclap, shockwave then tab-(devastate/revenge/shield slam/thunderclap)+cleave and you can make packs stick to you like glue. If its a big pull pop shield block when shockwave fades for the extra reflect threat.

[Skollvaldr]

Dude? have you seen what kind of dps ret pallies pull? Our ret was bashing on dummies for quite a while and on 4 targets he did about 25 k SUSTAINED selfbuffed without wings.

lies

[dino]

i often have the problem of being rage starved. so do i basically have to keep a 'lowlevel set' for lower instances because the rage mechanic is FUBAR or what? same goes for trash in icc f.e. when the pali runs in before me and starts tanking - w/o skills i can't get my rage up and get a mob to attack me to balance damage intake a little.

Our AOE threat is ok - not the best but managable. We have to work the most to keep the agro when there are 5+ mobs and honestly it kinda feels unfair when others seem to have an easy life and the far lower risk that a mob breaks out. hence are being more valuable for the entire raid

[Falnax]

How about...

Resonating Clap
(down at the level of like Vigilance)
3 seconds after using your Thunder Clap ability you have a 50%/100% chance to activate Resonating Clap which will create a Thunder Clap like effect on the location where you first used Thunder Clap doing no dmg but rather converting the dmg that would have been done into pure threat.


This way effectively you got 1 TC every 3 sec unless you are moving.

That my friend is called concecrate. I do have a more interesting idea. Since warrs have many shield based abilities I might suggest a sort of "splash" block of sorts. Allow successful blocks to cause damage equal to all mobs in the area. It would make shield block a much more fun cooldown and could be placed nearly anywhere in the prot talent tree (but I would reccomend with the critical block talent, I forget the name). Single target tanking remains untouched and the damage from those blocks isn't anywhere near that of concecrate and it's not a simple copy of holy shield and the warr tanking rotation remains the same. In addition, prot pvp is once again nearly untouched and if neccesary the block spread can work only on targets in front. Any thoughts on that?

Edit: Removed dmg replaced with threat.

[Deleted]

or -

Fully Charged - In place of Vigilance, make vigilance trainable.
Your thunderclaps charge you with lightning dealing 30 Damage every 3 seconds for 6 seconds. The effected targets will be Lightning Charged causing sparks to Jump to nearby targets every second - Each jump will reduce the damage by 50% - 3 Jumps total