Elemental 4-piece tier 10 bonus change

[brek]

even if u count that fact in.. fight's now got alot moving in it. and (atleast I) recast flameshock whenever I have to move (exept if alot left) wich mean's that even tbh they fixd that problem (wich is good..) it is way to minor to be specially usefull.. (exept in PvP ofc)

[Nyuun]

Strange, the majority of our talents say "USE FLAME SHOCK FOR DPZ", and I think, what these chaps at blizzard don't realize is that we don't just use Flame Shock for the 100% chance on LvB, but we also use it for our... you know, DPS.
I've been getting 10k+ LB's lately and FS definately does more damage in a GCD (Initial and DoT damage) than a LB crit. So it is in fact definately worth using, this set bonus to me says "lol dw about using fs, heres 100% crit chance for lvB".

I suppose it's nice for PvP but... PvE set bonuses are generally nice for PvE. GG


Whenever your Flame Shock instantly or periodically critically strikes, your Lava Burst cooldown is instantly reset. This effect has a 6 second cooldown.

I like, I like. Though for the sake of OMG NO THATS OP i'd go for "Whenever your Flame shock periodically critically strikes it has a 50% chance to reset the cooldown on your Lava Burst ability. This effect has a 6 second cooldown."

[Nyuun]

Oh and forgot to mention any Elemental Shaman not keeping FS up 100% needs to rethink what they're doing. There may be a tiny exception to why it's not, but bar that, it should always be up.

[Zamir]

I think, what these chaps at blizzard don't realize is that we don't just use Flame Shock for the 100% chance on LvB, but we also use it for our... you know, DPS.

I'm pretty sure they do realise this. If you'll excuse the indulgence of quoting myself from another thread:

The change is most likely to fix a problem with the bonus where there was a high risk that Flame Shock would expire just before Lava Burst's cast finished, causing a big DPS loss that was out of the player's control (it would have depended on latency more than anything else) or necessitating refreshing the DoT early to prevent it.

Unfortunately, assuming this is the reason for the change, they've not communicated it very clearly and I think a lot of players who were perhaps not aware of this issue are left feeling very confused.

The only possible good reason for this change is to fix that issue. It's just they haven't communicated this, so everyone who was unaware of the issue is left going "huh?".

Even so, it's an inelegant tweak to a poor idea that is going to have unfortunate ramifications for PvP if it goes ahead. I don't know why they're so resistant to changing the bonus to something else. If they want us to modify our rotation with the 4-piece, there are plenty of other more exciting and higher damage ways they could accomplish that.

[EpicPanda]

Maybe they should give us a decent 4p? Not one that works against the 2p GG, cleaver blizz is cleaver.
And I really don't understand the reasoning behind us not wanting to use FS(we all still will) when there are so many talents for the spell. *SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE*

[boneschaman]

pls read zamir's post...

the second problem with this buff is: you do +15% dmg for 10 seconds sounds much better and probably is still better

[Bergg]

Your optimism never fails to amaze me, Zamir. I think you're fooling yourself, though. I doubt the developers are concerned about inefficient Flame Shock expiration--I doubt they even know what inefficient Flame Shock expiration is.

I firmly believe that the staff thought that abandoning Flame Shock while using this set bonus would yield higher DPS.

Let's assume that they do have a clue what they're doing. Where would you go about Lava Bursting without Flame Shocking? Snobolds, Mistresses, Infernals, Anub'arak adds, Deathwhisper adds, and Putricide adds all live long enough for Flame Shock usage to be ideal. You'd use Flame Shock and Frost Shock while kiting Blood Beasts, too; instant cast direct and DOT damage certainly come in handy in that situation.

What, exactly, is this bonus for? Marrowgar's Bone Graveyard? Is that what it's for?

I suggest you all stop wasting your time. They aren't listening, they don't really care, and they don't know what they're doing. That's my opinion. Reroll, live with what Elemental is, and what it's always been--or quit the game. Unappreciative, ignorant people cannot ignore what does not exist.

[thrack18]

Your optimism never fails to amaze me, Zamir. I think you're fooling yourself, though. I doubt the developers are concerned about inefficient Flame Shock expiration--I doubt they even know what inefficient Flame Shock expiration is.

I firmly believe that the staff thought that abandoning Flame Shock while using this set bonus would yield higher DPS.

Let's assume that they do have a clue what they're doing. Where would you go about Lava Bursting without Flame Shocking? Snobolds, Mistresses, Infernals, Anub'arak adds, Deathwhisper adds, and Putricide adds all live long enough for Flame Shock usage to be ideal. You'd use Flame Shock and Frost Shock while kiting Blood Beasts, too; instant cast direct and DOT damage certainly come in handy in that situation.

What, exactly, is this bonus for? Marrowgar's Bone Graveyard? Is that what it's for?

I suggest you all stop wasting your time. They aren't listening, they don't really care, and they don't know what they're doing. That's my opinion. Reroll, live with what Elemental is, and what it's always been--or quit the game. Unappreciative, ignorant people cannot ignore what does not exist.

I agree 100%

[FamilyGoat]

Your optimism never fails to amaze me, Zamir. I think you're fooling yourself, though. I doubt the developers are concerned about inefficient Flame Shock expiration--I doubt they even know what inefficient Flame Shock expiration is.

I firmly believe that the staff thought that abandoning Flame Shock while using this set bonus would yield higher DPS.

Let's assume that they do have a clue what they're doing. Where would you go about Lava Bursting without Flame Shocking? Snobolds, Mistresses, Infernals, Anub'arak adds, Deathwhisper adds, and Putricide adds all live long enough for Flame Shock usage to be ideal. You'd use Flame Shock and Frost Shock while kiting Blood Beasts, too; instant cast direct and DOT damage certainly come in handy in that situation.

What, exactly, is this bonus for? Marrowgar's Bone Graveyard? Is that what it's for?

I suggest you all stop wasting your time. They aren't listening, they don't really care, and they don't know what they're doing. That's my opinion. Reroll, live with what Elemental is, and what it's always been--or quit the game. Unappreciative, ignorant people cannot ignore what does not exist.

While I want to think the way Zamir thinks, the pessimist in me keeps killing the optimist. We all just need to get 4 set as fast as possible, destroy pvp so we can get the nerf thats comming out of the way.
4set:
-lowers the cd on lava burst by 1.5 sec
-Lava Burst now has a 100% chance to crit, but does 80% less damage to targets without flame shock. YAY! The fix did nothing!

[BenBMW]

if Ele isn't good by Cata, then there's no question that's the last straw. as you can see by this last xpac, the final question always ends up being, "why waste time on a class that isn't up to par?"

gearing up is the hardest part. what i keep thinking is that it's just my bad luck as i look at my guildies and they're constantly getting upgrades while i've had a weapon 2 tiers of content back, probably have to wait weeks before i see a real upgrade.

other casters are choosing between weapons, i'm wondering which stat is better, mp5 or spirit? most of the gear that drops i don't even contend for because it has spirit, puts me more or leaves me over hit cap, doesn't have haste or has mp5 so it gets healer priority even if it's a vast upgrade.

lets not even mention dps and being a buff bot.

all of this because itemization is as bad as the Elemental spec.

At least we all still have some hope?

[PollyO]

Has there been much discussion about which is the best 4pc t10 combo... I'm having a hard time deciding which way I want to go. I am very upset with the stats on the T10, too much crit/hit combo's.

I'm pretty sure I am going to go with the pants as the off piece.

[Crabcakez]

There are two ways you can go regarding the tier10. I beleive this was posted on EJ somewhere.

Depending on how good/bad the t10 4pc bonus is, you can go 4pc w/ an offpeice (the gunship mittens or the pants).

Or you can get both peices and have 2pc t10.

This is considering you maintain hit cap while dropping the tier peices that do have hit

[Thartanos]

All i have to say: Q_Q i want a real DPS class

[ilialilov]

I want to say ... get real. Learn to play. Oh and target dummy is not where you learn to play.

[SkodLife]

At least we all still have some hope?

I'm sorry, but no.

The itemization problem has been here as far as I can remember, which is at least 2 years. It is never been the biggest problem, but it IS big, and it became bigger with the LFG system.
Other problems are scaling, DPvsToW and the resent T10 bugs and "buffs".

I spend a Sunday writing this, after reading the T10pc4 "buff":
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....03050786&sid=1

[Armagister]

Actually i see the reason of 4pc bonus change. There are a lot of situations when my lvb cd ends almost the same time as fs dot diappear. So i have to cast fs and keep lvb offcd for 1 sec. It means this bonus make our spell preority from fs>lvb>lb to lvb>fs>lb. Its not a direct dps increase but im sure it will be noticable. What you think?

[Dregas_Volar]

if Ele isn't good by Cata, then there's no question that's the last straw. as you can see by this last xpac, the final question always ends up being, "why waste time on a class that isn't up to par?"

gearing up is the hardest part. what i keep thinking is that it's just my bad luck as i look at my guildies and they're constantly getting upgrades while i've had a weapon 2 tiers of content back, probably have to wait weeks before i see a real upgrade.

other casters are choosing between weapons, i'm wondering which stat is better, mp5 or spirit? most of the gear that drops i don't even contend for because it has spirit, puts me more or leaves me over hit cap, doesn't have haste or has mp5 so it gets healer priority even if it's a vast upgrade.

lets not even mention dps and being a buff bot.

all of this because itemization is as bad as the Elemental spec.

^This, except the Cata quitting.

[Zamir]

Thus spake Ghostcrawler :

We're not happy with Elemental 4PT10, even with the change Eyonix announced (not requiring Flame Shock for LvB to crit). I think we're likely to completely redo it. We'll try and post soon what we think that change will be so you can make gear choices accordingly.

(Source.)

So who was calling me overly optimistic?

Jeepers, and I've already missed this:

The Shaman Tier 10 bonus has been redesigned and will no longer reduce the cooldown of Lava Burst or enable Lava Burst to be guaranteed to critical strike without Flame Shock present. Instead successful Lava Burst casts now increase the duration of Flame Shock on the target by 6 seconds.

Please note this is still a work in progress and we may end up with a different or modified bonus before the patch goes live.

(Source.)

[Deleted]

About that newest change:
I just tried figuring out how many LvB we'll get in...
Assuming you start with FS and immediately follow it by LvB, with the GCD being at 1sec...
You'll be able to cast 6 LvB for each FS.
This changes with higher cast times and if you delay your LvB, of course...
Don't know how much DPS that gives, will have to wait til EJ say something about it.


Still rather underwhelmed by the change... maybe because it doesn't give us burst, compared to so many other classes. (you do x more damage for y seconds when using z)


Okay, just did a bit of self-maths... I know it's not totally correct, but meh... I'm not good on those things, like i.e. Zamir and others.

Now... let's say an ideal situation, you don't ever have to move, you'll always hit the LvB perfectly and your GCD is already at 1sec.
In this case you'll only have to cast a FS every 54 seconds, instead of every 18sec.
This means that in those 54sec, you'll be cast 2 CL instead of 2 FS.
CL should hit for an average of 5k and crit for ~10k, so including the 11% of LO and 50% crit rate, it will do ~8k Damage.
FS should hit for an average of 2k and crit for ~4k, so let's assume you're rather lucky and get 50% crit rate with it, which will make it deal ~3k damage per cast. (only the initial damage)
So that leaves us with 5k damage gain per CL, meaning 10k damage in 54 seconds, which comes down to:
185 DPS.

The problem is, that the bonus gets EXTREMELY weak with movement. Just think about it... how often do you have to move in ICC and recast Flame Shock?
And as soon as you recast FS before it's gone down, the 4pc bonus will take a huuuuuge hit.

But there is one way to prevent that... but good luck with getting your guild to let you do it:
Melee-ELEMENTAL!
If you stand near the boss (and don't have to move much) AND have a Demolock in your raid, then you'll be able to a) put down Searing totem, b) can use Frost Shock for more DPS and c) if you have to move a bit more can also cast Fire Nova.

But, again: good luck getting your guild to let you do so >_>

[Zamir]

I'd hesitate to say anything conclusive just yet, but it looks like it could be about 150 DPS in a stand-'n-nuke scenario. The impact on movement would be curious, because essentially we'd want to use Frost Shock rather than Flame Shock until after the 4th Lava Burst. And despite its limitations (range, threat) FrS is higher DPS than FlS.

It looks like we could realistically expect 5 LvBs per FS at BiS haste levels.