Raiding, Raid Progression, Raid Performance

[Mediansoft]

As gm of a newly guild I am running in some obstacles. That is people expect me to "boost" them in ICC when their gear/performance doesn't warrent it.

As a new guild you can't go about and only get performing raiders with 7k DPS. Those people already have estabished guilds. (Personally I have full 245+ gear, raided everything incl all hardmodes and tribute runs, almost 10k achiev points.. so I should be set for a exempletory role guildwise). For now I was inviting people who are 18+ and full T9 minimum (232 or higher itemlevels). Now some are pretty nice, a lot however don't reach 4k DPS. We did ICC10 and we had 2 5k peepz and everyone else didn't get to 4. One got stuck on 2.8k even though he's full T9.

I was thinking of a system of ranks. "Totc Raider", "ICC Raider" etc. Then I would evaluate performances in raid and the gear they are using. From that I would assign ranks and the rank would limit the person's ability to sign up for raids untill they proven themselves in their current window and get promoted.

Thing is, how could I "rate" people in ex. Ulduar/Totc/ICC. I need some way to fairly assign the ranks. Dps ? Gear ? Experience ? Anyone got any suggestions for what the "minimum" values are for Ulduar, Totc, ICC and how to measure those ???

[blahism]

If you ask me, the last thing you want to do is split your guild up like that. Just run toc, icc 10 and icc 25 as far as you can and gear people up - all or none. Run heroics as well till your blue in the face if need be.

[Namor of Muradin]

Skill > gear.

Either decide to train well geared but novice players, or recruits skilled players and gear them.

[-Atlass-]

Our guild is divided but only by "Raiders" and those who don't raid (spread among diff ranks). Assigning gear or groups for that matter, is a terrible idea. People will constantly bug you why they can't be in this group of that group. Among those in my guild that raid, there are some that just don't perform well.

Our loot system just basically comes down to us comparing what they have to what they are rolling on, then weighing against what we think they contribute to the raids. Having a solid base of officers I can trust DEFINITELY helps here.

Also, look into an addon such as GearScore or Elitest Group. They will show you a basic overview of what someone is wearing as well as an average item level. It will show you who can benefit most from a piece. Don't go solely on gear score alone though as many people still use 200 lvl trinks and the such.

While our system is very complicated, it works out very well for us because we know who can contribute to raids, and who is just there to soak up gear.

[Mediansoft]

If you ask me, the last thing you want to do is split your guild up like that. Just run toc, icc 10 and icc 25 as far as you can and gear people up - all or none. Run heroics as well till your blue in the face if need be.

Don't think anyone needs heroic gear, as mentioned I only recruit people with 232 or higher. Problem is as Muradin points out skill > gear. And I fully understand that. Thing is I don't know their "performance" when recruiting, all I know is either achievements and their gear.

Other thing is we have about 70 people inguild now, I tried to get 2 25 runs going lately (one ulduar, one totc) and for both less then 15 peepz actually showed. currently I "punish" signing without showing with giving minus DKP but DKP is worthless if people don't show and I need to take pugs along. Also cancelling raids make the people that DO perform a tad grumpy which can result in them leaving while they are the ones doing the most for the guild....

[Mediansoft]

Our guild is divided but only by "Raiders" and those who don't raid (spread among diff ranks). Assigning gear or groups for that matter, is a terrible idea. People will constantly bug you why they can't be in this group of that group. Among those in my guild that raid, there are some that just don't perform well.

I know what your saying but for example currently we are doing more or less all 10m groups because well 10 is just easier to find then 25... I do know who are the ones that contribute most but if I only take those all the time people complain, whoever most of the ones that underperform and make us struggle needlessly only seem to get online for ICC raids and are nowhere to be found when it's Totc time.

Also the whole emblem thing doesn't make it easy to evaluate people, getting "good" gear is so easy with just grinding thriumps that you end up having well geared peepz doing 3.1k dps...

[-Atlass-]

I feel your pain. When my guild was first getting on it's feet we had the same problem, as i'm sure most do. The beginning stages are a little rough and you really have to take what you can get to get things rolling. Once you have enough to get things rolling, start laying down the rules. Sign up for a raid and didn't show? Great, have fun sitting out next week when you don't get invited. Don't waste your time counting on someone who has proven to be unreliable in the past. Replace them until they can prove that they will show to things they accept for.

We also have a "core 10" group that we go on all the new content with. These are 10 of the best geared, most skilled, and friendly group of people we have in the guild. Once all 10 have the fights down, they are passed into the forming of others groups (or groups we create for them) so that every group has at least one experienced member in it.

It's gonna be tough in the beginning, but be polite to those that are willing to help the guild grow and don't stand for those that are just there to collect their gear.

[grimkiller]

My advice to you is run with the 'suspect' people in ToC10.
If they cannot pull respectable numbers (~4k DPS in full 232/245) or tank/heal effectively there, then you would have every right to place them as a non-ICC raider until they improve.
One catch to this is you cannot just bench them.
Find out what they are doing wrong, give them a week of practice (through heroics and other raids).
If they don't improve, then explain to them that because of a performance issue, they are not priority for ICC raids.

You can easily tell the people who want to learn and improve vs the people who want to grab gear and move on.

In my guild, we downed 10 Festergut (got my boots, woooo) last week, but failed pretty badly on Rotface (~15%, boooo). We don't have the best of the best, but we have people who are devoting time and learning and getting better as the days go on.

[Muraza]

Pick the best players from each category such as. Melee dps, Ranged dps, tanks, healers. Make those people officers and then let them go through the players that fall under their category or area of expertise. Then have them rate them. As for players that arent good just make a rank called socialists since thats all they would contribute to your guild is their social skills and not raiding skill. If they are losers or suck at both remove them.

[klaps_05]

"Full t9" doesnt mean anything. Full ilevel 232 and above doesnt mean anything either. Make a forum - make them fill an application. Consider the information given in their application, consider the WAY IT IS WRITTEN and the way it is ORDERED. Then talk to the guy ingame instead of just inviting them. Getting people in a guild is easy - making sure they can cut it - a whole diff story.

[blahism]

Here is the thing. You can either recruit good people and start small or you can recruit anyone and get big then thin the ranks or explode.

Post on your realm forums, recuirtment here, recruitment at tankspot and utilize the websites to get recruitment up. Look for specific needs, specific people.

Build a core group of 10, get them started and fill in ranks from there.

If you start wide open and try and divide the guild up you open up for too much drama.. once you get some progress on 10 mans then other unguilded people or people looking for a new home will see that you're trying and may help you fill in ranks, take leadership roles and help you out.

But i highly suggest that whatever you do, don't segregate your guild into people who can do ICC or people who are in TOC and so on and so forth - develop as all or none.

Of course there is nothing wrong with Raider, Core Raider, Social and Officer Ranks so on and so forth.

If you do want to start out big then be prepared to be a social guild and phase into raiding and some drama

[Dregas_Volar]

Skill > gear.

Either decide to train well geared but novice players, or recruits skilled players and gear them.

This. I suggest finding out what the geared but lacking are doing wrong and try to help them. If after 1-2 weeks no improvement start active recruiting for more skilled players.

[Nikoll]

You need to get people to research thier class. Provide links to faqs on their class and learn some yourself. Or assign some officers to learn a few and help the shit players. If the player refuses to fix thier dps than bootthem.

[Christi]

i offer to help and turn any shadowpriest you may have into an awesome player if he's willing to learn ;D

(yes i am that bored, and yes i am serious)

[Deau]

Unless you shoot for a top end raiding guild, I suggest, as someone stated above, that you compose with what you have and work towards going as far as you can in each raid. It might feel a little frustrating in the beginning but the guild as a whole will come out stronger of every new encounter they defeat and the skills/confidence in/of those worse players will go up.

Now what you can do, in a different matter, is either lookup your guild for at least one player in each class who know the numbers theory behind the class well enough to help those worse players get a better rotation. Everyone beyond 18 is able to go read EJ forums for example(since it has become such a dominant source of class knowledge) but very few are actually able to understand the goods and bads of whats up there and most of those will then simply not go read anything. There will always be people that won't be able to execute a rotation properly even if they are given the best spec/glyphs to accomodate their gear non the less, helping them on the theory aspect of their game will probably bring them from 2.8 to 3.8 if not more already.

You can also get most the basic knowledge of every class/spec yourself but that can be very time consuming...like in vanilla I used to do it for every class in my guild. Back then, the average player had no clue wtf he was doing...not even gear-wise...I used to play 60h/week at the time and roughly 25-30 of those were spent reading and cranking up some numbers by logging on shared accounts

[scism]

why the age limit im in a progressing raid and we have a 15year old tank that is best on server just cuz you are young doesnt mean you suck there are plenty of video game geniuses under the age of 18

Because people under 18 have a tendency to do one of these

"Omg parent want laptop back. wawawawa i hate them"
"Omg u cant say swear words"
"Sorry got to go to bed" (after 1 boss)
"Sorry i have no idea of responsibility as i am under 18" (they might say that)...

Seriously, there are decent people under 18, but the vast majority are not and when leading a guild its much easier just to set a blanket limit

[Mediansoft]

you could just as easily set a blanket limit on GS so you dont have to gear up people like the original poster complained about also

True but as the op mentioned, if you go out looking for 5.2k+ GS only people, youll come home empty handed. All the good geared well performing peepz already have good well established guilds.