feral druid haste better than crit at icc gear level?

[arel00]

This configuration is far over the white crit cap, 64.7%. Therefore, you needz MOAR haste! (and armor pen)

also I would assume that Berserk would become far more valuable than Mongoose at that gear level. Simply because of that annoying crit cap. ><

The configuartion caps both Hit and Expertise, so no, the cap isn't that low. It's, actually, at 71.2%.

I suppose Mongoose wins due to the haste, more than the crit chance (which is, anyway, effective for both bleedings, and for Shred).

I tried more haste, but it's quite the balance between that and Str up there (to my surprise, but still). I can't grab more ArP, or I end up into a full ArP configuration, which wasn't the point of my test.

could you post the "gear list" (gear + gems + enchants) giving you these number please ?
heroic stuff or "normal" stuff ?

Heroic. I'll try again with normal, and then will post the lists. But I need some time, and I'm quite busy :P

[Biznick]

The configuartion caps both Hit and Expertise, so no, the cap isn't that low. It's, actually, at 71.2%.

You're right, I was too hasty when I made my post. I was at work at the time.

I sowwie, I love you long time

[Moogosa]

The configuartion caps both Hit and Expertise, so no, the cap isn't that low. It's, actually, at 71.2%.

Actually no, you don't subtract the 4.8% for suppression. So the cap is actually 76%.

If you think you're capped at 71.2, you aren't. That suppresion still gets taken from that 71.2, so you're lowering your crit even more.

[Biznick]

Actually no, you don't subtract the 4.8% for suppression. So the cap is actually 76%.

If you think you're capped at 71.2, you aren't. That suppresion still gets taken from that 71.2, so you're lowering your crit even more.

Crit capping is definitely the most confusing mechanic. I've never had to deal with it before, and I don't like it! ><

[arel00]

Actually no, you don't subtract the 4.8% for suppression. So the cap is actually 76%.

If you think you're capped at 71.2, you aren't. That suppresion still gets taken from that 71.2, so you're lowering your crit even more.

Oh... you're right :P I need to check the hit table on that model again. I don't expect major changes anyway, even it it shift all my dps by, say, 3%, the proximity of different configurations should remain almost unaffected.

On a sidenote: as I get more gear (my feral DPS setup isn't the best of 4 sets :P) I'll try to go down the Haste path. I still need some room so I can swtich stuff around tho.

[Brasso]

All this theorycrafting is going right over my head...long story short, Rawr is telling me now to gem for ArP and Haste and I don't even have a ArP trinket yet. Still trying to get Needle-Encrusted Scorpion every day. Should I go with Rawr's suggestions?

Brasso - Galakrond (US)

[Baabinator]

The first is not correct. I know because the very specific reason Unholy DKs were stacking a lot of haste in 3.2 was because the standard rotation at the time required you to use 7 abilities every 10 seconds. To do this you needed haste to reduce the GCD on each ability sufficiently that you could get through all 7 in that time including factoring for lag. The reason haste has gone down so much in value for Unholy DKs is that the standard rotation now involves 6 or less abilities per rotation the vast majority of the time so you no longer need haste to keep up with using your runes as fast as they come off of cooldown.

Unholy DK's used spells.

Spells are affected by Haste to lower the GCD to a max of 1 second.

Abilities are NEVER affected by Haste. Think about Sinister Strike, Shred, Mortal Strike, Serpent Sting ETCETCCCCcccccccccc

Feral Druids do not use spells (except Barkinskin and Faerie Fire)

[getefix]

OoC makes up almost 25% of my energy regeneration. Tiger's Fury is around 20% and regular energy regen is ~55%. OoC is that powerful and it's worth gearing around.

[teddabear]

I'm pretty well geared even though Distant Land refuses to drop for me even though we've killed Festergut 2 more times than should have been possible. This is what I get from Toskk's:

StrPS = 1.5403
AgiPS = 1.8673
Crit RatingPS = 1.6744
Hit RatingPS = 1.4591
Expertise RatingPS = 1.4591
Haste RatingPS = 1.4942
Armor Pen. RatingPS = 1.9708

[Melonberry]

I'm pretty well geared even though Distant Land refuses to drop for me even though we've killed Festergut 2 more times than should have been possible. This is what I get from Toskk's:

StrPS = 1.5403
AgiPS = 1.8673
Crit RatingPS = 1.6744
Hit RatingPS = 1.4591
Expertise RatingPS = 1.4591
Haste RatingPS = 1.4942
Armor Pen. RatingPS = 1.9708

So gem arp and agi/crit in yellows you want to meet the bonus for?

You need to be near a crit cap for haste to overcome crit.

[littlepiggy]

So gem arp and agi/crit in yellows you want to meet the bonus for?

You need to be near a crit cap for haste to overcome crit.

and even then haste might not be better.. last i checked im hit/exp capped, crit capped and arp soft capped and strength is slightly ahead of haste.. its probably going to take some hard mode gear for haste to truly overcome strength

[teddabear]

Well apparently the crit cap has been raised or we were wrong about it all along.

[littlepiggy]

they removed the crit suppression very recently, 4.8% i think? so you want 76% crit on your character sheet fully buffed including idol (but not mongoose or trinkets)

[getefix]

they removed the crit suppression very recently, 4.8% i think? so you want 76% crit on your character sheet fully buffed including idol (but not mongoose or trinkets)

From what I've read you can't get more crit to overcome crit suppression. You want 76% to read on your character sheet but you'll still only have 71.2% crit.

[Sunshine]

From what I've read you can't get more crit to overcome crit suppression. You want 76% to read on your character sheet but you'll still only have 71.2% crit.

Same. And remember, the crit suppression comes out of whatever is showing on your char sheet -- if you have 71.2% showing on the char sheet, you'll actually have only 66.4% crit.

[Deleted]

So gem arp and agi/crit in yellows you want to meet the bonus for?

You need to be near a crit cap for haste to overcome crit.

Not really. With a lot of ArP and "enough" crit to have to many CPs so you have to waste some, Haste is already > crit rating.

[littlepiggy]

Once you reach the hard crit cap of 77.8% (again, character sheet number), the hit cap, and the expertise cap, you should gem armor penetration to cap if you haven't already (soft cap if you have a trinket that grants ArP, hard cap otherwise), and then finally, most likely strength beyond that point.
A recent hotfix to boss crit suppression removed a 4.8% chance to hit that couldn't be overcome. If you see in another guide either 76% or 71.2%, it's outdated.

this is what i was referring to, but messed it up myself.. i'm not sure where you could find a blue post about the boss crit suppression but i'm sure this guy has tested it.

Not really. With a lot of ArP and "enough" crit to have to many CPs so you have to waste some, Haste is already > crit rating.

me right now
DPS = 11227.5007
DPS:AP = 1.3193
FAP:AP = 1.2
Str:AP = 2.3786
Agi:AP = 2.0846
Crit Rating:AP = 1.3664
Hit Rating:AP = 0
Expertise Rating:AP = 0
Haste Rating:AP = 2.2923
Armor Pen. Rating:AP = 2.0742
Armor Pen. Rating:Agility = 0.995

all arp gems
DPS = 11964.5723
DPS:AP = 1.3087
FAP:AP = 1.2
Str:AP = 2.3786
Agi:AP = 2.7356
Crit Rating:AP = 2.3599
Hit Rating:AP = 2.4005
Expertise Rating:AP = 2.4005
Haste Rating:AP = 2.5306
Armor Pen. Rating:AP = 2.5884
Armor Pen. Rating:Agility = 0.9462

bis gear hitting all caps
DPS = 13108.6868
DPS:AP = 1.1895
FAP:AP = 1.2
Str:AP = 2.3786
Agi:AP = 2.1046
Crit Rating:AP = 1.3969
Hit Rating:AP = 0
Expertise Rating:AP = 0
Haste Rating:AP = 2.6185
Armor Pen. Rating:AP = 0
Armor Pen. Rating:Agility = 0

from these quick small experiments with toskk's the only way haste is better than str, arp, hit/exp, agi is when you are crit capped, arp hard capped and hit/exp capped. granted when i was re gemming for my 3 new pieces of gear last week it suggested putting a haste gem in, but thats because the socket bonus was yellow and i get 4 agi out of it, make 20haste and 4 agi > 20 str. however my blue socket in my cape got the 20str gem

if you can show some other proof that says this is wrong.. show it, i'm willing to accept that it's wrong.. but i've seen nothing that helps haste > all until everything caps

[Deleted]

Haste is already > crit rating

Read properly, problem solved

[littlepiggy]

You need to be near a crit cap for haste to overcome crit.

Not really.

no one gems for pure crit (other than the occasional agi/crit gem), and hitting the crit cap is >>>>>> haste.

[arel00]

no one gems for pure crit (other than the occasional agi/crit gem), and hitting the crit cap is >>>>>> haste.

Sorry but, no.

When you close in to the crit cap, Haste becomes much more valuable. There are really few items you can switch around at that level to maintain an ArP hardcap, but those are better off spent on Haste (e.g. the Frost trinket).

If you don't believe me, use a proper model yourself.

Also, as I stated before: a heavy Haste configuration, with an ArP trinket and without hardcapping ArP, is extremely high on DPs potential.

You really have to try out different things sometimes to find out just how good some stats are. If you people keep taking EJ (or this forum, or anything else for the matter) as a Bible and blindly follow what's written, you'll end up with sad surprises sooner or later.