Serendipity vs. Test of Faith

[Proletariat]

Like one of the posters before, the real question is ToF vs. BR.

That makes Serendipity here the clear winner.

[doomsjay]

Hmm, perhaps those two talents don't exactly compare to one another. I decided to try out Body and Soul, which I find actually has a viable pve purpose, and ended up taking points out of Test of Faith for it.

[Venara]

Some interesting points here. I previously used both talents in my spec and I (and my raid for that matter) really enjoyed the effects of both. I know this seems like a dumb post, however the reason I brought this up is that I've been playing around with some for what might seem even more questionable talents so I needed to clear up three points which I needed to take from either Test of Faith or Serendipity.

My playing style relies more on Circle of Healing, Renews, Prayer of Mending, and Flash Heals, but when I do occasionally use Prayer of Healing or Greater Heal, I want them fast.

Anyways, thanks for the input and here's my recent spec, I'm sure you can see where I placed those three points,
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...o,OH-ORq,11159

Why would you ever waste points in Desperate Prayer and Lightwell? oO

Instead of using DP you can simply cast a BH. In addition to healing yourself, you can, for example, heal your dying tank at the same time.
Lightwell can be useful...occasionally. Most of the time (meaning 95%) DPS won't bother using it since it's a DPS loss.

[Peacemoon]

Test of Faith is one of the best talents. When it kicks in you really notice the difference. The +12% has a bigger impact on the size of greater and flash heals than empowered healing does.

Desperate prayer of course has its uses, its instant cast and can be used while moving. Its the ultimate reflex button. Binding heal is nice also, but in an emergancy I wouldn't want to use that as my first port of call.

[Kelesti]

Why would you ever waste points in Desperate Prayer and Lightwell? oO
Instead of using DP you can simply cast a BH. In addition to healing yourself, you can, for example, heal your dying tank at the same time.

Desperate Prayer has the output of a Greater Heal (before Empowered Healing). And it's instant cast. A lot of times when you get hit by something, you're moving to try and dodge it. You don't always have Surge of Light to instant-cast yourself, and if you stop moving to heal yourself, you could be hit by something else. If you don't stop, you could also be hit by something else. RNG happens, this is the safety net.

You pick up Health Stones, even though they waste a Global and output less than a Binding. And it's almost required that early in the tree.

Lightwell can be useful...occasionally. Most of the time (meaning 95%) DPS won't bother using it since it's a DPS loss.

This I'll agree with. But I take it anyways, and park it near my own ass. I don't need to lose a target to click it if I'm healing through mouseover macros. It's awesome as a raid flare marker, for "group up here" locations, because it's bright, and shiny (go go ADHD kids).

Festergut is a perfect example. And it kept me up during his disorient when we 4-healed 25 man. But.

Lightwell offers a pretty exclusive OP buff if you know how to use it right.
"Lolwell Hilarity: Increase the morale of your raid by 5%." Nothing else in my talent spec is actually worth that, especially when you're punching brick walls in the face (still haven't gotten Putricide down yet).

[Nillo]

Why would you ever waste points in Desperate Prayer and Lightwell? oO

Instead of using DP you can simply cast a BH. In addition to healing yourself, you can, for example, heal your dying tank at the same time.
Lightwell can be useful...occasionally. Most of the time (meaning 95%) DPS won't bother using it since it's a DPS loss.

1) DP : Because it's instant? (=> can be used while moving) and you can easily get the points by skipping useless stuff like divine fury or improved healing

2) Lightwell: While you will rarely find someone that uses it (I placed one near twins orb catchers and they used it from time to time) it is always safe to use it yourself => just place it near Icehowl to use it while stunned or just use it on any boss that throws around some random damage (Saves a GCD once in a while for selfheal @ Jaraxxus for example) or ask people to use it on anub 25 HM - it's not awesome, but not that bad as some people make it look like especially because it's only 1 point.

[rubberbands]

I know this doesn't really answer the question and has been said a few times but I'm also going to go with both. Also DP is like at the third tier of the tree so you're really not losing alot by taking it. I will agree with faithshield with TOF. It's probably the most underrated talent that is alot better than it sounds.

[Danner]

I take lightwell for the morale buff. It's quite amazing when used correctly

[jestible]

you are stupid....sorry to be a dick and everything but you deserved it for a dumb comment like that.

if i have a question but i dont want to spend time looking for the answer i just post the question and then come back later and check if it was answered. it's that easy

Well thank you for repeating what I just said in my initial post.. I said I was making a dumb post..

Your second sentence made about as much sense as putting toothpaste in the freezer (exactly, none). So what you're saying is that we should reward the lazy and stupid by answering the dumb questions when they could have easily resolved by applying some common sense and 5 minutes of research (hell, you could have gathered the information that both talents should be spec'd by reading the one post at elitistjerks -- one of the first results on a google search when searching anything priest).

You'll also notice that I asked questions to the OP to help make him a bit more self dependent in the future:

Why wouldn't I put points into both from the beginning?

So OP, why wouldn't you? What were you planning to put the other points in? Why?

I could have guaranteed you that he would have came back with a talent build that has a bunch of useless talents that waste points and likely don't fit at all with the typical build of a holy priest... AND then he post this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...o,OH-ORq,11159

Then I would have made another post saying something along the lines of, "What the hell kind of build is that? Please go read some more about your class and what roles you'd fill best. You're stretching yourself way to thin to fit what looks like to be both a tank and a raid healing abilities; maybe you should look into having 2 unique talent specifications and switch." I'd list some fancy smancy links to sites like elitestjerks, the official forums and hell.. even the new tankspot write-up isn't half bad.


...but you're totally right. It's easier to just to make a post, get the information without knowing any reasoning behind it and go on being a half ass priest.


OP: Do some research for yourself. Read some articles at the sites I mentioned. Start with this one: http://elitistjerks.com/f77/t83203-w...thas_downfall/.

[jestible]

This I'll agree with. But I take it anyways, and park it near my own ass. I don't need to lose a target to click it if I'm healing through mouseover macros. It's awesome as a raid flare marker, for "group up here" locations, because it's bright, and shiny (go go ADHD kids).

Festergut is a perfect example. And it kept me up during his disorient when we 4-healed 25 man. But.

Lightwell offers a pretty exclusive OP buff if you know how to use it right.
"Lolwell Hilarity: Increase the morale of your raid by 5%." Nothing else in my talent spec is actually worth that, especially when you're punching brick walls in the face (still haven't gotten Putricide down yet).

Hahaha, this entire post made me laugh out loud in my office. People outside looked at me funny. Thanks a lot.

[Cyrila]

Try this talent build:

http://eu.wowarmory.com/talent-calc....00000000000000

That's a good joke.


If you want a build with B&S, the best bet will be to borrow the points from Blessed Resilience, like so: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...m,bt-ORq,11159

Let me just add that B&S seems to be slightly more useful now compared to back in ToC when Anub'Arak was the only critical movement fight and even then it wasn't really important since you'd have BoP for the spikes. So far B&S has proven to be worthwhile on both Putricide with the orange slime and on Rotface if you're doing the achievement. Kiters will love you for getting them out of the gas clouds.

[Eletharin]

That's a good joke.


If you want a build with B&S, the best bet will be to borrow the points from Blessed Resilience, like so: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...m,bt-ORq,11159

Joke? Its a great spec for a priest that still has mana problems. Once you get super-geared I'd move the two points from Healing Prayers down into Improved Renew ... but there's nothing wrong with that spec.


On Topic: Both ...
The real question is Test of Faith or Blessed Resilience, or 3% constant vs 12% on targets that are < 50%. Regardless of which talent gives you more throughput overall, its more important to have the big heal when it counts. So yeah ... ToF AND Serendipity ... make the space in your spec!!

[jestible]

Try this talent build:

http://eu.wowarmory.com/talent-calc....00000000000000

Why did you select that build for him? He stated he is heavy on CoH, renew, PoM and flash. You've gone and selected things that really favor gheal -- and only partially helping 1 of the other 4 spells he mentioned.

Read more after the next quote...

Some interesting points here. I previously used both talents in my spec and I (and my raid for that matter) really enjoyed the effects of both. I know this seems like a dumb post, however the reason I brought this up is that I've been playing around with some for what might seem even more questionable talents so I needed to clear up three points which I needed to take from either Test of Faith or Serendipity.

My playing style relies more on Circle of Healing, Renews, Prayer of Mending, and Flash Heals, but when I do occasionally use Prayer of Healing or Greater Heal, I want them fast.

Anyways, thanks for the input and here's my recent spec, I'm sure you can see where I placed those three points,
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...o,OH-ORq,11159

After taking into account his playstyle (heavy on the CoH, Renew, PoM, flash) I'd say spec a little bit differently...
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000

Moving points between DF and Imp. Healing depending on if he values his mana or casting time more.

Also, moving points between Emp. Renew and Emp. Healing, depending on if he is more flash heavy than renew (imo, renew should be more (more healing, better cofficent, etc) but in the long run that's a playstyle choice).

Just my opinion. :/

[Cyrila]

Joke? Its a great spec for a priest that still has mana problems. Once you get super-geared I'd move the two points from Healing Prayers down into Improved Renew ... but there's nothing wrong with that spec.

Yes, there's a lot of things wrong with that spec.

Healing Prayers is a great talent and you should always have it.

If you have mana problems, you gem Intellect or go disc and gem Intellect. You really can't make an overly mana efficient holy build without gimping throughput.

[Zeuq]

First, Desperate Prayer is absolutely worth the point. If you have points in Improved Healing and not in Desperate Prayer, quite frankly, you're doing it wrong. Others have pointed out that the fact that it's instant cast is what makes it useful, and it's a bigger heal than a health stone. It saves my life often enough that I wouldn't trade that point away.

Second, as others have pointed out, debating Test of Faith vs. Serendipity just doesn't make sense. I guess, strictly speaking, Serendipity is better because it's absolutely required to do what Holy Priests do best; raid wide burst damage, but giving up ToF doesn't make sense either because it's also an amazing talent, and there's sufficient points that you can get it without giving up any more useful talents. Consider the following:

Empowered Healing vs. Blessed Resilience: Even at 4k SP, GH + BH + FH would have to make up more than 45% of your total healing to make EH better point for point than BR. This might happen in a fight like Deathwhisper, but it generally won't happen. Thus, BR is generally better than EH.

ToF vs. BR: One might argue that 3% all the time is more total throughput, and that might be true; however, I don't think that's a fair comparison in this case. If you're healing a DPS who is above 50%, it's not unlikely that all of that 3% will be overhealing; similarly, even if it's not, incidental CHs, CoHs, WGs, PoMs, and some random Druid HoT is likely to help top them off. Besides, someone sitting at 90% Health probably isn't in any more real danger of dying before getting topped off than someone at 95% health. Meanwhile, ToF will virtually never result in overheal unless perhaps you happen to crit a GH on a DPS, and also more likely that, since the difference is 4x greater, that it might mean someone could still be in danger without it, but not be in danger anymore if you did have. Finally, as others made the simple and most important argument, it's 12% when you need it vs. 3% when you may not. I really don't think it's any comparison at all.

IOW, I would say that ToF is strictly better than both BR and EH, so if you're going to give up points for another talent, take them from one of those before taking them from ToF.

[Tihr]

I really wish Kelesti wouldn't post on these forums, because 90% of the posts are drivel. There's nothing in the game that could make Desperate Prayer worth wasting a point on. Nearly everything in the game is predictable. Priests have so many spells they can cast while moving, so your point is irrelevent.

Festergut is a perfect example. And it kept me up during his disorient when we 4-healed 25 man.

Lightwell is an even bigger waste of a point. Saying that it kept you up through Vile Gas is irrelevent, seeing as any other healer can just heal you once, and you'd survive that.

[Cyrila]

I really wish Kelesti wouldn't post on these forums, because 90% of the posts are drivel. There's nothing in the game that could make Desperate Prayer worth wasting a point on. Nearly everything in the game is predictable. Priests have so many spells they can cast while moving, so your point is irrelevent.

Lightwell is an even bigger waste of a point. Saying that it kept you up through Vile Gas is irrelevent, seeing as any other healer can just heal you once, and you'd survive that.

Even if DP isn't that great, there aren't many options. The question is, do you really need 5/5 Spell Warding? This isn't Ulduar, raid damage has been toned down to a level where you don't need extra stamina.
I have personally made a few mistakes where I'm glad I had DP and I'm sure other endgame raiders can say the same.

[Zeuq]

I really wish Kelesti wouldn't post on these forums, because 90% of the posts are drivel. There's nothing in the game that could make Desperate Prayer worth wasting a point on. Nearly everything in the game is predictable. Priests have so many spells they can cast while moving, so your point is irrelevent.

How is DP a wasted point? Sure, if I could drop it to get more points deeper in the tree, great, but that's really not an option. You need to spend 20 points in the first 4 tiers. I'll give you that Improved Renew, Holy Specialization, Inspiration, and probably Holy Reach are all better talents, better talents. Then, even if you have 5/5 in Divine Fury, that's still only 18 points; and if you don't have it, you have tons of points and can easily spare one for Desperate Prayer, so lets assume you have it. I suppose you could max out Healing Focus instead, but with a Holy Paladin in the raid, I barely noticed any pushback with zero, see none with 1 point in it, so I don't see the point in maxing that out unless you only run 10s and don't have a Holy Paladin, and even then, I'm not sure that the second point would be worth it. I would also argue that Desperate Prayer is better than 2% less spell damage from a single point in Spell Warding in terms of survivability. And even though I seem to cast GH more than most Holy Priests, I don't find Improved Healing necessary for my mana situation, so I don't see a point in spending points there. Oh, and Blessed Recovery is just retarded.

So, if it's a wasted point, where else should I be spending that talent point?

[Tihr]

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbuZfE0cbMqihhcuAo

Spell Warding isn't wasted points. In Icecrown alone, it's good on Deathwhisper, Festergut, Putricide, possibly Marrowgar, and it will be really, really good for Sindragosa. Divine Fury/Imp Healing aren't worth speccing, as there's no need to cast GHeal anymore. Healing Focus is a great talent, especially, as you said, if you have a Holy Pala's Conc Aura in the raid too.

[Cyrila]

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbuZfE0cbMqihhcuAo

Spell Warding isn't wasted points. In Icecrown alone, it's good on Deathwhisper, Festergut, Putricide, possibly Marrowgar, and it will be really, really good for Sindragosa. Divine Fury/Imp Healing aren't worth speccing, as there's no need to cast GHeal anymore. Healing Focus is a great talent, especially, as you said, if you have a Holy Pala's Conc Aura in the raid too.

It's not wasted points no, but there's no reason to max it out when you aren't in imminent danger of dying from raid damage. Something which you were only in Ulduar.
Therefore you can easily go 1/1 DP, 4/5 Spell Warding.