Serendipity vs. Test of Faith

[jestible]

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbuZfE0cbMqihhcuAo

Spell Warding isn't wasted points. In Icecrown alone, it's good on Deathwhisper, Festergut, Putricide, possibly Marrowgar, and it will be really, really good for Sindragosa. Divine Fury/Imp Healing aren't worth speccing, as there's no need to cast GHeal anymore. Healing Focus is a great talent, especially, as you said, if you have a Holy Pala's Conc Aura in the raid too.

THIS.

It's not wasted points no, but there's no reason to max it out when you aren't in imminent danger of dying from raid damage. Something which you were only in Ulduar.
Therefore you can easily go 1/1 DP, 4/5 Spell Warding.

...although this isn't bad either.

[rubberbands]

Why did you select that build for him? He stated he is heavy on CoH, renew, PoM and flash.

I dont mean to sound condescending but we are talking about holy priests right. I'm sure no one is really heavy on Proh and certainly not gheal right?

There's nothing in the game that could make Desperate Prayer worth wasting a point on. Nearly everything in the game is predictable.

Spell Warding isn't wasted points. In Icecrown alone, it's good on Deathwhisper, Festergut, Putricide, possibly Marrowgar, and it will be really, really good for Sindragosa.

[/quote]

Ok I'm not going into the "predictable" bit, but it's clear what we are comparing is 1 point in spell warding or 1 point in DP. Not 5/5 spell warding vs DP. One is a passive small damage reduction (and btw no one is saying it is "wasted", just which is better) which is all good and the other is a decent extra button that you can press when you really need it.

Priests have so many spells they can cast while moving, so your point is irrelevent.

Please consider the following before making such bold statements.

1. Weakened soul is 15 seconds.
2. COH is on a CD, and heals for considerably less
3. PROM is on a CD, needs you to survive the next hit
4. The emp renew portion heals for considerably less, and the next tick is in 3 sec
5. HS has only 1 charge, and is also off the GCD

[jestible]

I dont mean to sound condescending but we are talking about holy priests right. I'm sure no one is really heavy on Proh and certainly not gheal right?

Haha, exactly. I was being a little condescending as well. I can't remember the last time I cast GHeal in a raid.. PoH usage is situational, but you're correct when you say no one is 'heavy' on it.


Back on topic:
I think I'm going to drop a point from Spell Warding and throw a point into DP, why not? Kinda silly not to do it with the current content.

[Zeuq]

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbuZfE0cbMqihhcuAo

Spell Warding isn't wasted points. In Icecrown alone, it's good on Deathwhisper, Festergut, Putricide, possibly Marrowgar, and it will be really, really good for Sindragosa. Divine Fury/Imp Healing aren't worth speccing, as there's no need to cast GHeal anymore. Healing Focus is a great talent, especially, as you said, if you have a Holy Pala's Conc Aura in the raid too.

The point was that 2/2 Healing Focus is largely wasted with a Holy Paladin in the raid. Yes, with 2/2 and Imp Conc Aura you get no pushback, but with 1/1, you get 85%. The extra point gives you less than half the value of the first point, there's not a whole lot of pushback anyway especially with a lot of instant casts, and even when there is a LOT of pushback, we're talking a maximum of 0.15s difference if you get hit twice during the cast. If you only get hit once, it's just 0.075s of pushback. I don't think paying a talent point for that is worthwhile. I can only see 2/2 really being worth anything in a pushback heavy encounter, but how many of those are there? With 1/2, you get plenty of pushback resistance with a Holy Paladin in the raid and still have room for DP and 5/5 SW or 5/5 DF.

And even if you still think 2/2 Healing Focus is needed, I wasn't arguing DP against 5/5 Spell Warding. What I was arguing was 5/5 SW vs 4/5 SW and DP. That is, I think 8% Spell damage reduction and DP will offer better overall survivability than just a 10% spell damage reduction. I'd much rather have DP because occassionally I'll make a mistake by not move fast enough out of avoidable damage, or take extra RNG spike damage, or get aggro from an add, or need to heal myself for a fair amount on the move; 2% more spell damage reduction will have a comparably negligible effect when your goal is to maximize overall surivability, if that's your goal.

(and btw no one is saying it is "wasted", just which is better)

Actually, someone is...

There's nothing in the game that could make Desperate Prayer worth wasting a point on.

[harky]

If you're going to drop one of the early talents in Holy, drop to 4/5 Holy Spec. 1% crit is point for point a crappy investment. As others have said though, this is no longer Ulduar. DP is by far more useful than one point in Spell Warding. However, since it's realy, really not Ulduar there is very little reason anymore to be taking Spell Warding over Divine Fury. Greater Heal should be getting back on your bars in a lot of fights in ICC and if it isn't you're a liability. Drop to 4/5 Holy Spec, 5/5 Divine Fury and 1/1 DP. 2/2 SoL is bad... I can't ever, ever say that enough. It's not about faulty math and proc rates, it's about how SoL is used. Finally if you don't have B&S in your build I don't really want to admit you exist. If you're not doing meta achievements, or Putricide, or Anub, or Rotface, or Deathwhisper... okay, fine. If you are and don't have it? You're why Druids took our jerbs.

[rubberbands]

Actually, someone is...

thanks for the correction, skimmed through and missed it

[doomsjay]

Perhaps I should have retitled this thread. The whole reason I posted it is because I wanted to try out Body and Soul and assumed I'd have to rip points out of Test of Faith for it. I really do love both Serendipity and Test of Faith. It's still not a dumb post, it got some people debating did it not, it has helped me and probably some others in "research" as I am well aware of my class and I know there's always room for improvement. So now that I fed the troll's this is what I'm ultimately going with. I've never had mana issues without Healing Prayers, so it's not going to affect me much in not taking it vs. other talents. Do I feel that Body and Soul is mandatory in the holy build, no, but is it viable, most certainly.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...C,-HOROe,11159

Take it for what it is and thanks for the input.

[harky]

That spec is borked. Take one point out of Seal of Light and one point out of Blessed Resilience and put them in Body and Soul. Then take a point from Holy Spec. and put it into Divine Fury. Use the two freed up points to max Healing Prayers.

[Nømeansnø]

Both.

[Proletariat]

Next, the kind anonymous internet peepz will set up your UI, your keybinds, and then eventually just play your character for you!

[Revitalize]

Why would you not just get the full points in healing focus honestly?
Sometimes you just dont have improved conc aura from a holy paladin.
Like in 10 mans.

Unless your all nazi about your raid comp just because your too much of a priss to spec into 2 points.

[Kelesti]

My Holy Paladin can't actually afford the points for Improved Holy Concentration, so I get near-full value from both points. Plus, there are fights where she's providing aura support (we only have two Paladins, and one's our MT. >.>)

So I generally get more bang for my buck, both in tens without her, and in 25's alongside her, than most people do.

[G l o w y r m]

I did a lot of math on this and generally from MY EXPERIENCE with who I raid with, it's rare that I'm healing people below 50% often. I'm usually healing people that are at the 50%+ mark since there's lots of Druids and other Holy Priests.

Of course, there are some fights where there is plenty of -50% action.

So people in my raids aren't under 50% long/often enough due to the make up to make it more important than the increases from Blessed Resilience and Empowered Healing.

If people happened to be under 50% often and stayed there enough for me to get heals out on them often, I would get both ToF and Serendipity, keep Blessed Resilience, and drop Empowered Healing.

[DarkFerret]

The point was that 2/2 Healing Focus is largely wasted with a Holy Paladin in the raid.

Sorry guys, can't raid tonight. Holy paladin is out of town.

[Revitalize]

Sorry guys, can't raid tonight. Holy paladin is out of town.

I lold.

[Jerakin]

What ppl are forgetting is that if ppl are at 1-50% then they really need the heals. It isn't always about Maxing the healing and getting the msot HPS, it is about getting the encounter down.

[Kelesti]

What ppl are forgetting is that if ppl are at 1-50% then they really need the heals. It isn't always about Maxing the healing and getting the msot HPS, it is about getting the encounter down.

but omg hwo i get top meetrz?

[Zeuq]

My Holy Paladin can't actually afford the points for Improved Holy Concentration, so I get near-full value from both points. Plus, there are fights where she's providing aura support (we only have two Paladins, and one's our MT. >.>)

So I generally get more bang for my buck, both in tens without her, and in 25's alongside her, than most people do.

This is a fair point, and I've conditioned my point on the assumption that you will have IHC. At least in my raid, we have two Holy Paladins, both of which have IHC, so the probability is pretty high that I'll have it, even if one is assisting with resists or the like. However, how many encounters in ICC really have a meaningful amount of pushback?

Yes, I suppose if the Holy Pally can't afford IHC or can't make it to the raid AND we're working on an encounter with a lot of pushback, I could always respec to pick up two points in it. However, if having IHC is a reasonable assumption, even if pushback is fairly high, or pushback is very low or non-existent, I just don't see the efficacy of 2/2 HF compared to DP or 1% Crit.

[Doctavice]

Why would you take points from holy spec for healing focus? I thought that almost everyone decided between spellwarding or divine fury & HF... the choice would be gheal/dps cast time or spell dmg reduction vs pushback protection

[Zeuq]

Why would you take points from holy spec for healing focus? I thought that almost everyone decided between spellwarding or divine fury & HF... the choice would be gheal/dps cast time or spell dmg reduction vs pushback protection

One of the suggestions upthread was to keep 2/2 HF and take the point from HS rather than DF for DP. If you're taking SW, then taking a point from that is rather trivial, but if you're using DF instead, taking 4/5 seems to defeat the purpose of getting the talent in the first place.

Really, my point is that with so little pushback, HF feels mostly like a filler talent anyway. I'm fine with putting 1/2 there since I always get full use out of one point, but since I almost always have IHC in the raid and there's so little pushback, the reduced usefulness of the second point on an already meh talent seems pointless, and I'd rather have the extra crit or faster clutch GH or DP. Obviously, if other people have different conditions, their conclusion may be different. My point was simply to raise some awareness that, for many people, the second point in HF may not be the best place to spend it.