Crippling Poison -- Unchecked?

[vakerik]

50% crippling poison would not break rogues.

To whoever said death knights don't have 50% snares..
If you hadn't noticed, the death knight's chains average out to about 50% given they run their course, require a GCD and a rune and is dispellable.
Then there are the tree based snares, first there's the blood snare which requires a glyph and a talent(heart strike).
Second there's the frost snare, which is linked to a disease, and will be removed if said disease is dispelled, again talented.
Third the unholy snare, which is a ground effect similar to frost trap(thus avoidable by moving out of it.), and again.. talented.

I can't believe you thought this made sense. I actually just registered to refute it.
If you think an on-average-50% snare is the same as an always-50% snare, you're horribly mistaken. The first second of the snare is by far the most important, and most are dispelled after that anyway. What's the average slow before each is dispelled? (Or before a druid shifts, rogue vanishes, etc.) They require a rune, but not melee range. Let rogues put crippling poison on throwing weapons, maybe.
Any player will agree that a death knight is 5x as hard to get away from as a rogue.
The unholy snare is talented... and everyone has it at a decent rating. And, similar to frost trap, it lasts for about 5 seconds after you get out of it. The other two, hardly anyone uses.

I don't understand. From the rest of your post, it sounds like you think rogues right now need to be even less capable of getting to a target. And you're a death knight. Vs a death knight, a rogue can literally be kited for an entire game and never get a melee attack except when they use a CD. Obviously there's more to it, but you have best snares in the game except for *maybe* mages.

[Raptorg]

I can't believe you thought this made sense. I actually just registered to refute it.
If you think an on-average-50% snare is the same as an always-50% snare, you're horribly mistaken. The first second of the snare is by far the most important, and most are dispelled after that anyway. What's the average slow before each is dispelled? (Or before a druid shifts, rogue vanishes, etc.) They require a rune, but not melee range. Let rogues put crippling poison on throwing weapons, maybe.
Any player will agree that a death knight is 5x as hard to get away from as a rogue.
The unholy snare is talented... and everyone has it at a decent rating. And, similar to frost trap, it lasts for about 5 seconds after you get out of it. The other two, hardly anyone uses.

I don't understand. From the rest of your post, it sounds like you think rogues right now need to be even less capable of getting to a target. And you're a death knight. Vs a death knight, a rogue can literally be kited for an entire game and never get a melee attack except when they use a CD. Obviously there's more to it, but you have best snares in the game except for *maybe* mages.

What do you want me to say? That rogues are underpowered? We both know that's not true.
Chains is a perfectly balanced spell, not better or worse than any other snare, why doesn't anyone understand that giving up a frost rune means you're giving up a lot more than just some resources. You would understand if you actually bothered to play a death knight, runes might regenerate, but they're not like rage and energy, they're limited in the amount of abilities they can activate, and they will limit the use of abilities when used. For example, if I just chained 2 people, I'm incapable of using scourge strike or applying frost fever to anyone.
I will be able to do those again after ~8-10 seconds, but by then, chains will have worn off already. Or worse, dispelled. And it starts again, and I still haven't dealt damage to the opponent. Sure, death runes help here. But for that I need to use blood strike.

Death Knights are hardly faceroll like everyone seems to claim.

[Proletariat]

I can't believe you thought this made sense. I actually just registered to refute it.
If you think an on-average-50% snare is the same as an always-50% snare, you're horribly mistaken. The first second of the snare is by far the most important, and most are dispelled after that anyway. What's the average slow before each is dispelled? (Or before a druid shifts, rogue vanishes, etc.) They require a rune, but not melee range. Let rogues put crippling poison on throwing weapons, maybe.

Rogues do have crippling on their throwing weapons. It's called Deadly Throw. Learn to use it.

Any player will agree that a death knight is 5x as hard to get away from as a rogue.

This is what the boneheaded players who don't play classes with magic cleanses just never seem to understand CoI is fine. It sucks if you can't dispel it. It's almost inconsequential if you can. Overall, it's balanced, and one of the only useful tools DKs have left.

Vs a death knight, a rogue can literally be kited for an entire game and never get a melee attack except when they use a CD. Obviously there's more to it, but you have best snares in the game except for *maybe* mages.

So I guess your team isn't going to keep the DK slowed or cleanse you. Wonder what bracket you're at.

Besides, it's not like DKs even have any cds like Sprint or Cloak to escape from a Rogue in the first place. Your little qq there at the end is irrelevant since that situation would rarely happen, unless you were stupid enough to swap off of the DK w/o putting it in a cc, in which case you deserve to be kited.

[Fendel]

Interesting how CoI came into effect.

Does no one read the fine print with Death Knights and Virulence? Chains of Ice has 0 dispel resistance -- only our diseases do. Case closed.

EDIT: What also is interesting here is how some Rogues believe a 50% normalization would destroy the Rogue class; you all have grown to comfy with something that works entirely to offensively and defensively and is considered non-stop spam -- and if you refuse to believe it it is because you're afraid to play your class without a 70% snare. [Denial]

[Dcruize]

Rogues do have crippling on their throwing weapons. It's called Deadly Throw. Learn to use it.

???

[Shasui]

Ya, shasui Wing Clip. Should learn to use it sometime. Its what real pro hunters use to kite instead of jumping over the frost trap.

lol.. Did you even read what I replied on? And what I even said?

[Fendel]

The Deadly Throw + glyph would increase the snare to 60%.

[K4ge]

Changing crippling poison would destroy rogues. Alone the fact, that we wouldn't be able to kite warriors anymore and that we don't have any short cd gap closer (charge, intercept, death grip) would completely fuck us over
Stop the fuck crying and learn to deal with it, rogues are in no way overpowered right now.

[Corathor]

K4ge, QQ...

What they are saying is that the 70% in and of itself aren't really the problem.. the problem is that the rogue gets to apply it without even a second thought, it just automatically happens on the use of his abilities. If they made it to where the application of Crippling Poison actually took resources away from the Rogue, making it a CHOICE for the rogue to have to use it over doing damage, then it would balance the class a bit more for PVP. This goes for anything that gets applied in a similar fashion to crippling poison among any class though.

[Dcruize]

If they made it to where the application of Crippling Poison actually took resources away from the Rogue, making it a CHOICE for the rogue to have to use it over doing damage, then it would balance the class a bit more for PVP.

Hey, it cost me two talent points to get crippling to apply without weapon-swapping! :P Could have taken +20% OH dmg or +energy each crit instead, so I did pick it over doing damage.

Seriously though, why is our gap closer such a big deal?

[critterkiller]

This goes for anything that gets applied in a similar fashion to crippling poison among any class though.
[/quote]


So you mean stuff like, Wing clip, frost trap, that judgement crap palas have, dks frost talent when affected by frost fever (chillbians or something).

this is all spells that a classes would use cuse it has so little "requirements" such as mana, if crippling posion wure to be and ability then it would have to be somethng around 5 energy cost or something and therefore it would be so little it would not make any scense and again it applying it to a weapon or using it as an ability would be so little.

I would say that all classes form of CC and slows is fine at this state and im not complaining aldo i hate sheep spams :P

[djop]

:-X :-X :-X

Before anything gets out of hand I think Rogues are in an interesting place as far as Arena goes at the moment. Their damage is high, their escapes are fine and all -- but it's their talent "Deadly Brew" that gets me; but not so much as the talent as it is Crippling Poison itself. The ability is a 70% snare reduction, which I thought all other complete -snare- effects got normalized to 50%.

20% extra make a difference? Yes. I believe if you earn your way to get away from a rogue for a split moment, it should count -- but if a poison does not get off with a cleanse or what not, that 70% snare reduction will not allow you to even strafe far enough to matter and the Crippling Poison is right back on and there is -no- getting away unless Hand of Freedom is rockin'.

Point is, the poison snare should be normalized or even work similar to a Death Knights chains of ice ability where the snare lets up as seconds tick.

[K4ge]

K4ge, QQ...

What they are saying is that the 70% in and of itself aren't really the problem.. the problem is that the rogue gets to apply it without even a second thought, it just automatically happens on the use of his abilities. If they made it to where the application of Crippling Poison actually took resources away from the Rogue, making it a CHOICE for the rogue to have to use it over doing damage, then it would balance the class a bit more for PVP. This goes for anything that gets applied in a similar fashion to crippling poison among any class though.

No you idiot, it wouldn't balance rogues any more, because do not need any nerfs. We are underrepresented as it stands. Forcing rogues to shiv crippling poison would brake and, fyi, is the reason why neither combat nor subtlety are viable (among others)

[Deleted]

o rly

http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/playe...l/all/all/all/ i see rogues in middle much better then op DK's with their uber chains :

[K4ge]

Yes we're in the middle in 3's (and underrepresented in 2's and 5's), so doesn't that mean, we SHOULDN'T be changed?

[Mjollnir]

lol.. Did you even read what I replied on? And what I even said?

ya I did, was being a dick =P . Its true tho, ive seen lots of hunters doing that . Ain't easy to LoS when you're on a frost trap. =/

Anyway... back to this topic, CoS is fine its a 1 minute CD that needs to be used wisely. Its not like you can blow ur CoS on w.e you want, you gotta choose when you wanna use it and how you want to use it. Defense of offensive, and then wait it out for another minute. Pretty much half a Trinkets CD, It isn't OP because its not like we can Prep it. Its only OP because we can resist shit and deal damage onto you for 5 seconds, Oh wait, I wonder if people haven't noticed AMS is pretty much the same thing except it absorbs magic damage instead of chance to resist, No the reason why people find it OP is because the rogue's know when and how to use it. People who are crying about rogues haven't noticed where rogue's are atm or haven't played seen how balanaced rogue's are at the moment compared to warriors (Piercing howl spamming and hamstering spamming, mobility)

No you idiot, it wouldn't balance rogues any more, because do not need any nerfs. We are underrepresented as it stands. Forcing rogues to shiv crippling poison would brake and, fyi, is the reason why neither combat nor subtlety are viable (among others)

Listen to him, he knows what he's talking about he'd also agree with me. The reason why

we're in the middle in 3's

is because rogue's have a good synergy with mages and locks, and because of WoTLK's burst were able to play some cleave with the amount of snare breaking abilities and classes were put with. For example: RPP (Ret/rogue/priest) BoF,BoP and dispels make us capable into dropping a person down in the first 30 seconds of the match, after that 30 seconds the rogue would probably have 1 or maybe evasion and a dismantle left in his CD arsenal.

RMP, Depending on how good your mage is, the mage can peel and the priest can dispel. The mage can dispel hexes but thats really it. The mage,priest,rogue synergy is good because the control they give out is just great. If you trinket something stupid, your probably gonna end up getting Chain CC'd for the rest of the match and lose because of it, Or get swapped onto and raped.

The rogue class itself at the moment, isn't great in survivability, Your a dumbass to reply to this topic if you haven't watched the recent MLG. Once the rogue has no CDs, he gets swapped onto and dies, thats it. Compared to a warrior once his CDs are gone, he can still tank,peel and deal damage at the same time long enough to get their CDs back.

What do you want me to say? That rogues are underpowered? We both know that's not true.
Chains is a perfectly balanced spell, not better or worse than any other snare, why doesn't anyone understand that giving up a frost rune means you're giving up a lot more than just some resources. You would understand if you actually bothered to play a death knight, runes might regenerate, but they're not like rage and energy, they're limited in the amount of abilities they can activate, and they will limit the use of abilities when used. For example, if I just chained 2 people, I'm incapable of using scourge strike or applying frost fever to anyone.
I will be able to do those again after ~8-10 seconds, but by then, chains will have worn off already. Or worse, dispelled. And it starts again, and I still haven't dealt damage to the opponent. Sure, death runes help here. But for that I need to use blood strike.

Death Knights are hardly faceroll like everyone seems to claim.

DK complaining about rogues, sad. How about managing your CDs better and death grip me a Desecration Chain spam Combo. I also recently heard Massives beated Akrios in a duel for 500g because he trinketed his opening kidney. -clap Knowing when to trinket.

[Proletariat]

How about managing your CDs better and death grip me a Desecration Chain spam Combo.

That means you're not sitting on the DK, and you're leaving him un-cced, so you're just begging to be gripped.

Rogue complaining about DKs, sad.

[Nakriel]

Let's not turn this into a "rogues vs. dks" thread. The reason Crippling poison is the way it is is because; A.) It's dispellable, and B.) Rogues do not have a great deal of mobility outside of sprint and prep/sprint. If you want it to be changed to only apply on Shiv then why not make Wound Poison only apply on Mutilates, and a certain attack to apply each poison.
Let's face it, it's a poison, poisons apply on autoattacks. If Crippling got modified from 70-50 rogues would find it a lot harder to compete against competent kiters like Mages and Hunters, and a lot harder to get away from Warriors. It's not going to happen.

[Fendel]

Let's not turn this into a "rogues vs. dks" thread. The reason Crippling poison is the way it is is because; A.) It's dispellable, and B.) Rogues do not have a great deal of mobility outside of sprint and prep/sprint. If you want it to be changed to only apply on Shiv then why not make Wound Poison only apply on Mutilates, and a certain attack to apply each poison.
Let's face it, it's a poison, poisons apply on autoattacks. If Crippling got modified from 70-50 rogues would find it a lot harder to compete against competent kiters like Mages and Hunters, and a lot harder to get away from Warriors. It's not going to happen.

So, rogues are just not allowed to have Counter-classes? Honestly, don't bring up the whole dispel thing with poisons -- There's no way in hell GCDs can keep up with auto-attacking snares not to mention there are sometimes 3 or a stacking poison on the target. I honestly say you -might- have to work a tiny little bit on Druids or in Druid comps -- but that's right, no counters -- I forgot.

EDIT: By the way, don't make it seem like just you rogues have trouble dealing with Mages and Hunters -- the classes themselves are based around kiting melee and that's what they do; you're no more special than any other Melee class trying to get a hit in or two. Just be glad you do have a working Cloak-Sprint to allow you to do so. You guys are a bunch of spoiled children -- play a melee class without a snare.

[K4ge]

L2p issue, rogues have plenty of counters... in duels as of now:
Ret
Dk
Protret
Protwarrior
Disc
Restodruid
Holypally
Mages
Locks

in arena rogues aren't doing overly well in any bracket. Ok in 3's, bad in 2's and 5's.
And working cloak is also a bad joke. I'd like to see your bubble have a 10% failchance and see how much you cry around.