HL vs FoL

[purusa]

Not really looking for a debate here, just some insight.

I've been playing a pally all throughout WotLK (a hunter / priest previously) and just returned from a month or so break (just experiencing 3.3 now). In the days of naxx I generally stuck to HL and had my occasional mana problems, primarily on Patchwerk, the majority of my mp5 came from food/flask. Now ever since then, i've moved on to FoL, 42% crit on my FoL +2300sp. As far as I can tell, my mana is still quite low in comparison to other healadins.

So that's my quick little bit of info, so my question is why HL?

[Needonboots]

Gemming pure int means you can easily get 30k+ mana unbuffed with basic T9 + badge gear, probably even more.

Along with the Libram of Holy Light cost reduction, and whatnot, you can pretty much spam Holy Light, pausing long enough to refresh the FoL HoT, SS, and Bacon.

Intelligent use of Divine Plea, and possibly even letting the odd melee swing in on the boss (JoW, SoW) nets a huge chunk of mana the more int you have.

A lot of paladins now are pushing 40k raid buffed. Keeping HL spam going is easy.

[Mutant!]

Before ICC FoL was just not strong enough to keep a tank up I.E impales on Gormok, etc.

I believe that with the large amounts of spellpower in ICC gear it could be viable to gem Pure SP and Bomb flashes which could help with large overhealing numbers but I have not looked into it extensively

[purusa]

I can see how a HL spec is viable and appears to be quite popular, but short of your tank requiring HL spaming, which may be needed in ICC (haven't been in there yet) why not stick with flash? I've done TotC 10/25, just on normal and my FoL is sufficient. So I was just wondering why its common place now, people just wanted a change, bosses are hitting hard again? Am I just not in a high enough level of content to see what is/will be required of me? Just curious is all

[Paladin885]

also the answer is due to the fact that tank spike dmg is really higher than anything found in naxx or ulduar now. If i could relate any of it, its like patchwerk 25man with tanks in heroic blue gear sometimes.


ToC is fine with all healing spells. heroic "ToGC" is where the spamming returns and it continues well into ICC. Right now its just the nature of the games as paladins are the only healers capable enough to match the dmg bosses are causing to tanks right now as far as raw healing goes.

Therefore, the majority of holy pally players are obsessed with the notion of infinite mana pools and strive to have the most...which is a bit retarded since having so much int means you have no mp5 and that leaves you 100% depended on crits.

oh yeah, good example of what i mean: Festergut is a newly released boss who is a perfect test to see if your healers are pro and if your dps is worth keeping in the guild. During the fight he will start to rape the second tank (threat switch off) and it is 100% dependent on a paladin to heal it with HL spams until the 3rd spore spawns or its a wipe.

[purusa]

also the answer is due to the fact that tank spike dmg is really higher than anything found in naxx or ulduar now. If i could relate any of it, its like patchwerk 25man with tanks in heroic blue gear sometimes.

Ok, well good to know, I guess I'll start hunting down haste/mp5 gear.

[Firecrest]

So that's my quick little bit of info, so my question is why HL?

It comes down to the same answer as the age old addage, "Why do dogs lick their own balls?". Why do we HL instead of FoL? Because we can. If you have the mana to cast a bigger heal and the Haste to make it come nearly as fast, why the hell wouldn't you?

[Paladin885]

Ok, well good to know, I guess I'll start hunting down haste/mp5 gear.

you dont need a lot. My gear is ~550 mp5 buffed and I do perfectly fine. But sometimes I do wish I could hunt down a healing mp5/haste set for some bosses :P

[Sozeles]

Short version:

FoL and HL is about equal provided the following:

FoL paladin stacks pure spellpower in gems and enchants
-Fast medium size heals, you never oom

HL paladin stacks pure int in gems and enchants (even int on weapon is far better than 63 sp)
-Medium speed HUGE heals, you never oom

EDIT: @ Masterpd85 ; Shaman is just as good if not better on a single tank. The paladin however, can spam heal two at once...

[purusa]

It comes down to the same answer as the age old addage, "Why do dogs lick their own balls?". Why do we HL instead of FoL? Because we can. If you have the mana to cast a bigger heal and the Haste to make it come nearly as fast, why the hell wouldn't you?

Yes but if you can heal your target with a FoL, why use a higher mana spell for whats not needed, if you have the mana pool and regeneration I guess it's irrelevant, but for me thats not reason enough to change the way I play my class. As another poster said it does become more of a requirement in dealing with ICC, which then is a good reason.

[Sozeles]

Better safe than sorry Pursum.....

[supa]

Even shorter version: never /oom, doesn't matter what you do as long as it fits your playstyle

[purusa]

Better safe than sorry Pursum.....

Well I mean being generally the only person in a group (heroics and most often 10mans) who is out for SP plate gear, I won't refuse the gear, I guess I'll start keeping it and building towards a HL outfit.

[Azyoulike]

EDIT: @ Masterpd85 ; Shaman is just as good if not better on a single tank. The paladin however, can spam heal two at once...

No, shaman does not even begin to get close to providing the same tank security as a HL pally.
Why? Because Tidal Waves isn't always up. If it was then sure, shaman would be close to as good, but it's not.

So a shaman spamming flat out on the tank has to cast either CH or riptide every two HWs, cast HW unacceptably slowly, or cast LHW with no crit bonus. None of these are desirable. CH even with very high levels of haste will be hitting in 1.7 secs or so, while an equivalent pally might hit with HL every 1.2. An extra 0.5 secs for a much weaker heal can be enough to lose a tank.

Now druids on the other hand can indeed provide the same level of tank security with a single tank.

[Firecrest]

Yes but if you can heal your target with a FoL, why use a higher mana spell for whats not needed, if you have the mana pool and regeneration I guess it's irrelevant, but for me thats not reason enough to change the way I play my class. As another poster said it does become more of a requirement in dealing with ICC, which then is a good reason.

Like the person above said, it's much better safe than sorry. "Because big heals might be wasted" is not a good reason to continue using a sub par build. The only two plausable answers are "It might not get there soon enough" and "I will run out of mana". Decent gearing deals with both of those potential issues and makes HL builds the way to go.

[purusa]

Like the person above said, it's much better safe than sorry. "Because big heals might be wasted" is not a good reason to continue using a sub par build.

That's why I'm asking, in my experience my build is not subpar, I perform quite well in what I did do, like I said I didn't do any ToGC and I haven't hit ICC so now hearing that my build is not up to par of what's required from me I'm willing to pursue gear that will help me support that build.

[Riek]

That's why I'm asking, in my experience my build is not subpar, I perform quite well in what I did do, like I said I didn't do any ToGC and I haven't hit ICC so now hearing that my build is not up to par of what's required from me I'm willing to pursue gear that will help me support that build.

even in ToC I wouldn't just spam FoL, that just doesnt seem to cut it. If it worked for you then chances are other healers in your raid was also healing the tanks.

[purusa]

even in ToC I wouldn't just spam FoL, that just doesnt seem to cut it. If it worked for you then chances are other healers in your raid was also healing the tanks.

There was other healers and usually another pally on the tanks as well so like im saying in my experiences what i'm doing is sufficient. I think I've discovered from other posters that HL is not really an alternative, but in going into ICC is required.

[Fishcake]

I would say its more because HL builds overall will provide a lot more throughput and all it requires is more intelligent use of cooldowns. Divine plea early and often to keep the mana up but also use it when it might not be needed so when it is, you've got the mana to go through the rough patch.

I for one do not spam HL, I use HL mainly with fols thrown in as and when are needed, but using a HL pally over an FoL pally can mean the difference between dropping a tank healer for a raid healer, or dropping a healer altogether as i've yet to see a FoL paladin able to keep up with our two HL paladins. Not saying they don't exist as they might, but at my level of gear, killed anub hc pre 3.3, we're just not seeing the output.

[purusa]

as i've yet to see a FoL paladin able to keep up with our two HL paladins. Not saying they don't exist as they might, but at my level of gear, killed anub hc pre 3.3, we're just not seeing the output.

Well there's no denying the fact that two players geared appropriately for HL or FoL, the paladin casting the bigger heal will have a better output on average then the FoL.

Okay, so apparently I was ignorant to the demands of a healing paladin in the newer/upper end content, I will work towards it as I can.