HL vs FoL

[cornelious0_0]

But then, the worst player in the big-leagues is better than the best player in the minors aren't they? (Don't feel this is intended to be directed at you Corn, I'm just venting.)

It's cool...that's exactly where I was coming from.

I suppose if I told myself I was gonna do nothing but heroics and personal achievement/AH stuff (nothing wrong with that) I would redo all my gems/enchants/glyphs and be much better suited so you do have a very valid point. I actually strongly considered building a full FoL build to use in heroics but without a full 2nd gear set to gem I'd be missing out quite a bit and I don't think I'm worth putting that kind of time into grinding emblems/drops for the gear. :P

[Majokin]

collect BiSgear and spam FoL with 3900+ sp unbuffed ;>
on 0,9sec casttime obvsly raidbuffed (with latency included haste has a effect under 1sec gcd)

i collected all my gear twice and gemed for SP. reached 3400sp selfbuffed and its fun in daily heroic, weekly and any raid (minus ToGC25) nowadays.

[cornelious0_0]

collect BiSgear and spam FoL with 3900+ sp unbuffed ;>
on 0,9sec casttime obvsly raidbuffed (with latency included haste has a effect under 1sec gcd)

i collected all my gear twice and gemed for SP. reached 3400sp selfbuffed and its fun in daily heroic, weekly and any raid (minus ToGC25) nowadays.

I bet it would be a blast and, due to my play style I'd probably enjoy it, but it's easier to gear up for a high mana pool and focus on HL viability then getting the uber high SP levels it seems. I could be wrong though...

[Nømeansnø]

Therefore, the majority of holy pally players are obsessed with the notion of infinite mana pools and strive to have the most...which is a bit retarded since having so much int means you have no mp5 and that leaves you 100% depended on crits.

Wrong on so many levels. Intellect increases your crit % (related to mp5) and SP(healing less, spending less mana). More importantly large mana pools yield higher regen from replenishment, mana tide totem, hymn of hope and obviously divine plea.

[errosync]

o you understand sarcasm, maybe you should look up "example" or "metaphore" or something along that lines

Protip:
When you're going to school someone, spelling the words properly helps a ton.

Also, the usage of words relating to plurals helps (Those vs That).

[crabvomit]

For healing in 25 ICC I would really have to say Holy Light. Flash of Light just doesn't have the throughput. Festergut with 3 inhales hits like one crazy mother fucker and I just really don't think flash of light would do it.

wut about if u pop divine ieulmination and avengang wrath and then holy light for 37k with 2 fol palies thats like 1000k inc heals on tank sup firecrest

[Firecrest]

wut about if u pop divine ieulmination and avengang wrath and then holy light for 37k with 2 fol palies thats like 1000k inc heals on tank sup firecrest

I don't understand this sentence (I use the term loosely) or why it has my name at the end of it.

[crabvomit]

Nah I was just looking forward to some "why stacking int is better than sp" dribble.

[St1ckman]

I don't understand this sentence (I use the term loosely) or why it has my name at the end of it.

I think he's referring to the t10 2p set bonus for 35% healing plus avenging wrath for an additional 25%.... I think ;>>

[Azyoulike]

Yes you can ignore this fact when you are arguing how much healing you can do to a target in x amount of time. I am not arguing a continuous stream of healing and looking at following up those three spells with more. If we are looking at it that way we would have to look at the entire fight. If my LAST three spells are those three then boss dies, would you still be able to argue that it took me 3secs to cast those spells? NO, because it doesn't. It's all situational.

Ok - but in those '2 seconds' you have healed 4 people and you feel very proud of your status as a raid healer, even while gimping your performance as a tank healer. Guess what, in those same 2 seconds the Holy priest healed 5 people and potentially 5 pets. Moreover he can do the same thing in the next 2 seconds, which you cannot because you can't cast for the next second at all. Why do you want to optimize your paladin to be a poor excuse for a holy priest? You will simply never be as good a raid healer as him, or as a druid, or as a shaman. You will never even be as good a raid healer as a disc priest.

You have the best in class single target heal in the game, and you choose not to optimize for using it. The result is as Firecrest says, you've optimized for running easy content over hard content. You have the best tank healer in the game and you've chosen to ignore tank healing considerations (ie. the stability of the healing stream on the beacon).

The power of FoL is it makes a paladin into an excellent tank support healer, while reducing his ability as a tank throughput healer. Your FoL/HS combo is actually very useful in the context where another holydin is already providing the HL bombs to deal with most damage and you are covering for spikes with burst healing. Not as useful as PW:S->penance ofc, but then disc priests are not stackable. I have no real problem with FoL builds, so long as they're viewed as ancillary to HL builds, not a substitute. However I have huge problems with bad pseudo-theorycrafting and poorly made claims, which is all you've provided.

[darthceltic]

Nah I was just looking forward to some "why stacking int is better than sp" dribble.

interesting, u have 400 more sp then me, like 6% less crit, 160 less haste, and 10k less mana.

so since i too can cast all fl and use same libram, but also cast all hl when it's really bad

which is better, 400sp to a flash of light, or, 10k mana, 6% crit, 160 haste

u can all choose.

[Glnger]

Why not just use either FoL or HoL depending on what the situation requires

I know, groundbreaking insight from a warlock here.

[Deleted]

so my question is why HL?

Because FoL is too weak to keep tanks up on most hardmodes.

[jenysis]

the question of HL vs FOL is definetly something all pally heals need to be aware of. im my experience as a holy pally in 25 ICC, there are certain fights where HL is WAY more valuable than FoL. I gem for straight Int and have a 37k mana pool. I usually dont have an issue with mana, just make sure your in the group with a healing shaman with mana spring, and use of your Divine Plea is KEY here. On most fights I let myself get to about 28-30k mana before I use it and I make sure that I dont get below 20k (just incase theres alot of raid dmg and I have to throw some huge heals out).Lord Marrowgar is spam holy light. My numbers are usually about 8-9k hps. I usually dont pop my CDs (Avenging Wrath, Divinie Illumination, Divine Favor, Heroic Binding Stone trinket.. oh and if you dont have a macro for all your CDs at once, you should DEF make one) until the first Whirlwind and its straight 8-9k hps for the rest of the fight. Now, Deathwhisper and The Gunship, FoL is sufficent enough, just because of the minimal raid dmg. Saurfang, same thing... if your letting the person with the mark die (thats how my guild has successfully cleared it many times) then just keeping the tanks and raid up with FoL is fine. Moving into Festergut though...... thats a healing intensive fight. And if your elected to heal the tanks, like in most cases, leave your beacon on the tank with aggro and SPAM holy light until you cant see anymore. Last night, I was at 13k hps. and 2.94mil heals overall. Its really about knowing what fight is going to require what heals. Do a little research beforehand and prepare yourself. Some fights are extremely boring and some take all of your attention. Hope this helps

Jenysis - 80 Holy Pally
Draka

[jenysis]

interesting, u have 400 more sp then me, like 6% less crit, 160 less haste, and 10k less mana.

so since i too can cast all fl and use same libram, but also cast all hl when it's really bad

which is better, 400sp to a flash of light, or, 10k mana, 6% crit, 160 haste

u can all choose.

you want 10kmana..... MANA MANA MANA. gem for int and your numbers will soar.

[darkwarrior42]

Why not just use either FoL or HoL depending on what the situation requires

I know, groundbreaking insight from a warlock here.

Most paladins who gem and gear for one style or the other do in fact make use of both spells, as the situation dictates.

However, since you seem to miss the reason the differences in the spells are discussed so widely, I'll give you a very brief summary:

HL: Very strong, highest HPS, but extremely expensive.
---To make HL a spell you can reliably spam, you need to gem for mana (INT mostly).

FoL: Very weak, very fast (you can easily reach 1 sec cast time), extremely cheap.
---To make FoL a spell you can rely on in raids, you need to gem for SP to boost its relatively low power.

Since the two spells require very different gemming/gearing to become reliable, it is likely that you will wind up favoring one spell over the other.... using the other spell only when circumstances dictate/allow. For a HL pally, this means using FoL only during times when damage is so low you can give up power to save some mana. For FoL pallys, this means using HL only when you know FoL simply cannot keep up, and using only as much HL as absolutely necessary, so you don't run yourself out of mana.

Either way, most paladins are best off choosing one spell or the other to focus on. Saying we should just use both as circumstances dictate is like saying raiding warlocks should make regular use of both Shadow Bolt and Incinerate, regardless of spec; there may be times when all warlocks have to use a different spell (school immunities or lockouts come to mind here), but you want to focus on one or the other. Same concept.

[fl4shi]

i have PuGed my paladin up until saurfang, am pushing around 30k mana with BoK but have Solace of the Defeated and the Purified lunar dust for the bigger heals and MP5. now, in ICC healing is pretty much HL HL HL move HS HL HL HL melee melee melee melee HL HL HL. through more or lessusing divine plea and divine illumination keeps me at steady mana levels throughout the fight. now, you pretty much never ever EVER want to use FoL. it crits at 3,2k SP reaidbuffed for around 7k , 7,4 with the pvp libram, holy light, with a cast timeof around 0.3 seconds slower heals for 12k noncrit and 20k crit. if i am healing the tank (and i always am either through beacon or direkt healing..) there will always b the chance of him eating quite big hits and thus needing that 20k heal. the 7,4k (best case scenario) will either a) overheal or b) be a drop of water on a hot stone.

so.. socket int, as much as you can get and spam that holy light button like crazy!

1. with pvp libram its 7.8k crit not 7.4k
2. FoL-Pally crits for 10k+
3. FoL-Pala has 50% more crit than a HL-Pally so its almost "always" 10k crit fol vs your 12k HL noncrit (half the time)
the FoL-Pally has the Hot running as well 10-20k
4. FoL will never be overheal or rather if it is 7k overheal (your numbers) the HL would have been 12-20k overheal (your numbers) so its kinda stupid saying it will be overheal when comparing the 2 (if smaller one is overheal the bigger one is definitly overheal)
5. its not like you aren't able to use HL as FoL pally.. you just don't spam it

the fol pally i know has 3400sp / 40%crit / 700haste / 31k mana unbuffed and uses furious pvp libram (another 375 sp)
+ crit from skills / glyphs / whatever -> 90+% crit

[Firecrest]

Why not just use either FoL or HoL depending on what the situation requires

I know, groundbreaking insight from a warlock here.

Because you have to gear and gem for either one or the other for them to be effective. Stick to your own forums.

[Firecrest]

the fol pally i know has 3400sp / 40%crit / 700haste / 31k mana unbuffed and uses furious pvp libram (another 375 sp)
+ crit from skills / glyphs / whatever -> 90+% crit

ROFL - 90% Crit, huh? I think you need to do a little bit of research before you make shit up like that. At least try and keep it in the realm of possibility next time.

[tjanson]

ROFL - 90% Crit, huh? I think you need to do a little bit of research before you make shit up like that. At least try and keep it in the realm of possibility next time.

Psh, I have like 110% crit. Unbuffed.