Are Warrior tanks obsolete or useless now?

[baconwing]

I have never had a group complain about my being a warrior tank. well there was this one time where i qued for a random after getting a new tanking weapon only to realise i had like 15 skill in maces...... lol but i just put my old weapon on and it was all good.

[supa]

The only prob in war is lesser dps than other tank's dps. I bet it will be checked somedays. Anyway cry for dps as tank is meaningless.

I would agree if it weren't for enrage timers :O. If the dps on some fights isn't there, then Pali and druids at 3k dps tanks > 2k for warriors (just about averages I've noticed on top geared players).

[trigun313]

The feeling I'm starting to get is why bring a warrior for tanking? I've been kicked out of the daily heroic for being a warrior. why bring a warrior tank when you could bring a pally who can rip of mean dps while seeming to take less damage?

so what do you guys think? do warrior tanks need something done to them to make them more useful again or just let them wither and die out?

Whoever kicked you was a moron, plain and simple.
Warriors are not useless at all, they can get the job done both in hc and raids and this is all that matter.
As for sure they bring less utility than paladins for example, but since 'they can get the job done' it doesn't really matter.

Would I be happy if they add some cool (better say 'useful') new spell to warriors? yep, definitely.
Am I happy with what I have now? yep, definitely.

A warrior tank is simply one (if not 'the') most satisfying class I've ever played and if healers or dps complain about a warrior who's doing his job right, it's much likely they're doing something wrong, not the warrior.

[Huntrex]

Not obsolete or useless - just pala are relatively Op

Pala have massive front load threat with aoe threat which doesnt need careful timing
Pala start with a full mana bar which appears to never run out
Pala have a defy death talent
Pala can self cleanse
Pala do more dps especially agains t undead (and guess what we get a lot of)

Your guild are at the edge of what they can do - dps is tight, healing is tight, there is poison about and there maybe sudden massive spike damage. Who you gonna use?

Pala are OP and they nerf warbringer and shield slam!

Changes to pala have changed the way people play and when they get a warrior tank they dont adapt - warrior can do big pulls now but we need a couple of secs to get it done - oh for the 'wait for 2 sunders days' - waiting a little was never a problem in vanilla - now you sux as a tank unless you can agro all the widely spaced trash mobs immediately.

Pala need to be like all other tanks 35% hp buff on click not a die-didnt die talent, warrior non-crit dmg need big buff (i ll live without 12k shield slams - just make everything else hit 25% harder), give warriors and druids a full rage bar at the start (we are very cross people).

My biggest problem is - i have a warrior tank, a dk tank, a pala tank and a dru tank - and warrior is by far the most fun - pala and dk are boring, and pala is by far the easiest / best agro / best dmg / best survivor.

Hard work and skill deserves reward - it takes hard work and skill to play a warrior - where is the reward? Give us 3k dps in ICC with 5.6k gs gear. Work something out that as an OT we can do 3k dps so we aint being carried dps-wise.

QQ / rant over

[Netherinfern0]

only tanking class that requires skill

[Weena2]

Not obsolete or useless - just pala are relatively Op

Pala have massive front load threat with aoe threat which doesnt need careful timing
Pala start with a full mana bar which appears to never run out
Pala have a defy death talent
Pala can self cleanse
Pala do more dps especially agains t undead (and guess what we get a lot of)

Your guild are at the edge of what they can do - dps is tight, healing is tight, there is poison about and there maybe sudden massive spike damage. Who you gonna use?

Pala are OP and they nerf warbringer and shield slam!

Changes to pala have changed the way people play and when they get a warrior tank they dont adapt - warrior can do big pulls now but we need a couple of secs to get it done - oh for the 'wait for 2 sunders days' - waiting a little was never a problem in vanilla - now you sux as a tank unless you can agro all the widely spaced trash mobs immediately.

Pala need to be like all other tanks 35% hp buff on click not a die-didnt die talent, warrior non-crit dmg need big buff (i ll live without 12k shield slams - just make everything else hit 25% harder), give warriors and druids a full rage bar at the start (we are very cross people).

My biggest problem is - i have a warrior tank, a dk tank, a pala tank and a dru tank - and warrior is by far the most fun - pala and dk are boring, and pala is by far the easiest / best agro / best dmg / best survivor.

Hard work and skill deserves reward - it takes hard work and skill to play a warrior - where is the reward? Give us 3k dps in ICC with 5.6k gs gear. Work something out that as an OT we can do 3k dps so we aint being carried dps-wise.

QQ / rant over

Best post ive read in a long time

[ProphetNoata]

Not obsolete or useless - just pala are relatively Op

Pala have massive front load threat with aoe threat which doesnt need careful timing
Pala start with a full mana bar which appears to never run out
Pala have a defy death talent
Pala can self cleanse
Pala do more dps especially agains t undead (and guess what we get a lot of)

Your guild are at the edge of what they can do - dps is tight, healing is tight, there is poison about and there maybe sudden massive spike damage. Who you gonna use?

Pala are OP and they nerf warbringer and shield slam!

Changes to pala have changed the way people play and when they get a warrior tank they dont adapt - warrior can do big pulls now but we need a couple of secs to get it done - oh for the 'wait for 2 sunders days' - waiting a little was never a problem in vanilla - now you sux as a tank unless you can agro all the widely spaced trash mobs immediately.

Pala need to be like all other tanks 35% hp buff on click not a die-didnt die talent, warrior non-crit dmg need big buff (i ll live without 12k shield slams - just make everything else hit 25% harder), give warriors and druids a full rage bar at the start (we are very cross people).

My biggest problem is - i have a warrior tank, a dk tank, a pala tank and a dru tank - and warrior is by far the most fun - pala and dk are boring, and pala is by far the easiest / best agro / best dmg / best survivor.

Hard work and skill deserves reward - it takes hard work and skill to play a warrior - where is the reward? Give us 3k dps in ICC with 5.6k gs gear. Work something out that as an OT we can do 3k dps so we aint being carried dps-wise.

QQ / rant over

Only 1 of those is a real survivability thing and that is ardent defender. Our "defy death" as you say. The mana bar doesnt get depleted due to talents with divine plea and if it wasnt for that we would go oom within the 1 min cd that it takes for divine plea to come back. Self cleanse you cant hate on cause all paladins have that.

Our massive threat output is a bit unfair i admit. But wtf should you care who does more dmg? its not ur job to do dmg its ur job to hold aggro keep the boss away from the weaker raid members and survive.

And paladins dont have last stand and for a long time we didnt have a shield wall. Now we have a shield wall and ardent defender is our last stand so besides threat no more QQ

[Huntrex]

I would trade last stand for defying death, and as for the rest you appear to agree pala have the edge on dmg and threat - thx for that.

[Simca]

I would trade last stand for defying death, and as for the rest you appear to agree pala have the edge on dmg and threat - thx for that.

DK tanks win in the actual damage output arena single-target-wise, otherwise I agree with that statement. And there are quite a few situations where Last Stand is a lot better than AD - like using Last Stand + Shield Wall to survive a big hit, you can't control AD. I will agree that in general, non-hard fights, AD is vastly superior, though.

[dino]

lets look at the departments of warrior and paladin while we're on it...

THREAT/ATTACK CAPABILITIES
Paladin: Can seemingly get the agro from a big bunch of mobs without starting to sweat. Consecrate being very strong and the toggable skill that increases agro does a very good job. Also they can immediatly use their array of skills and due to Spiritual Attunement mana seems hardly to run out as Palas are being healed when tanking. Also Divine Strength (+15% Strength), Combat Expertise (+6 exp, Stamina + crit 6%) are a nice addition (also for survivabiliy) oh and avengers shield and hammer of the righteous

Warrior: Has from the looks alone pretty neat aoe skills, like Thunderclap and Shockwave but their fine tuning is messed up. It's a spikey threat generation which boosts only a little instead of constantly. Usually resulting in the plain need to get some initial agro but since dps'ers are used to start dealing damage right away you automatically have the downside and are regarded as inferior compared to your Paladin counterpart. Furthermore we are heavily dependant on rage which comes in questionable amounts, if we can't charge in we're screwed. Shield Slam is amazing and quite powerful (for the time being), Concussion blow and Gag order is superb to control casting enemies. Devastate is not very strong but the buff gained from it is very helpful. Disarm being also a nice helper but nothing so crucial.

SURVIVABILITY/DEFENSE CAPABILITIES
Paladin: Ardent Defender (20% reduced dmg + attacks which would otherwise kill you cause you to be healed by up to 30% of your max hp) is an awesome skill and the overall defense capabilities are astonishing (righteous fury -6% dmg, Toughness +10% armor value, holy shield, Redoubt, Guarded by the Light, Shield of the Templar) . A Paladin seems to be able to tank heavy hitter content with lower equip than other tank classes.

Warrior: Shield Block and Shield Wall sound good but I feel that the tuning isn't as good and the Pallies are better off with their skills, Last Stand being more of an 'oh shit button' rather than something to be used to mitigate the received damage. Damage Shield is not as good as it used to be - base idea of the skill is great but doesn't show off all too well.

BUFF/RAID SUPPORT
Paladin: Blessing of Sanctuary - nice, all the other buffs which can be obtained by a Paladin make a Warriors shouts look puny and nifty. Cleanse ability to support, shielding to support

Warrior: +2255hp or 550ap shouts this can be done by a fury warrior too tho and if specced in improved it's even better, so that alone being no reason to bring a warrior. Sunder, can likewise be done by fury/arms or a rogue - those being usually a part of a raid


from a perfectionist standpoint I'd choose Paladins as tank for my raid - why? The overall survivability of the class is higher, which gives my healer an easier time so they can also focus on group heal and despelling. Furthermore are Paladin buffs superior and since I'll bring Fury Warriors with me I do not have to worry about shouts. Sure a ret or holy Paladin can buff too but there is still the plus on survivability. Then the Paladin tanks have better threat and attack capabilities which gives me more dps and a lower risk that mobs break out and go rampage within the raid. I know looking at dps from a tank doesn't make much sense but 500-600 dps isn't nothing and if I can have higher dps, less wipe risk and better survivability why settle for less?

of course this only works if you compare two equally skilled players. I'm not saying all Paladins are superior, only that the class build currently has the upper hand and you don't really need to be a scientist to see that. In the end it all boils down to how skilled a player is but it takes seemingly more skill to master a warrior than a paladin - speaking learning curve wise.

I do expect that blizz looks at the charts and reworks our attack and threat capabilities and changes the rage/stance mechanic as it is vastly outdated and a pain rather than a fun utility.

[Ibinto]

Warrior tanking has its ups and downs I've noticed. I normally roll DPS, having been a tank for the last 4 years, I'm taking a vacation from it. However, last week I was filling in for a tank who couldn't show to a 10man. Now I've kept my gear up to speed with the content as best that I can, the only weak spot I have on my tanking set is boots from naxx25. The other tank has gear nearly identical to mine. Same boot problem, but with a slightly better shield than me. So we get to Festergut with out any problems really, and for the first time ever I felt like the warrior was gimped.
here I am with 565def, 45,000hp and 8% dodge after the ICC debuff. The other tank, who is a pally, has noticeably less health, less dodge and less def then me. By the time he does his third inhale he was one shotting me. That's after cooldowns. popped my dodge trinket, last stand and shield block at the same time and he still two shotted me, popped my shield wall, last stand and shield block (go 10 second immortality) and he three shots me. the 4th time we did it, I even popped all of them. Shield Wall, Shield Block, trinket, regeneration and last stand - and what happens? mopped the floor with me. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong here. My gear is fine, my rotation is 4 years practiced, shit I could AOE tank in BC better than pallies could. I know my damn class because its the only class I've ever really played. my cooldowns are being used properly. and yet this bastard keeps moping the floor with me.
Then here's the pally tank, with 4% dodge, 42,000hp and 545def. Festergut barely even touched him. Dude just rides through it with out batting an eye.


There's something wrong there. I refuse to believe that warriors are gimped, because we can't be gimped. If they nerf us, All we have to do is just try harder. We've always been like that, because there's no such thing as a broken class when it comes to warriors. but there's something fishy about the way that fight turned out. It was as if my avoidance just completely failed on all 3, despite them being considerably better then said pally. I dunno, I want to go back with the same raid composition and try it again.

[supa]

Could be healing lag. Honestly that is the only reason that should happen. That seems to be a healing failure not to get heals on you after 3 hits (assuming he's slowed down due to TC as well).

[exdeath202]

BUFF/RAID SUPPORT
Paladin: Blessing of Sanctuary - nice, all the other buffs which can be obtained by a Paladin make a Warriors shouts look puny and nifty. Cleanse ability to support, shielding to support

Warrior: +2255hp or 550ap shouts this can be done by a fury warrior too tho and if specced in improved it's even better, so that alone being no reason to bring a warrior. Sunder, can likewise be done by fury/arms or a rogue - those being usually a part of a raid

You forgot Vigilance (lower agro for one dps, remember the old times of blessing of salvation), Sunder amor (-20% armor is nice for melee dps and my own), demo shout, thunderclap, disarm, spell reflect, shield slam dispeling, interrupting capability on very short cooldown.

[Weena2]

Pally tanks outshine warriors atm, saying this i find it hard to believe that many guilds raid without a prot warrior at least there for their utility

[supa]

It's also about eficiency. It's not efficient to bring 2 pali tanks. Warrior tanks bring the most debuffs (some correct me there if I am wrong), so it makes sense to have one in your raids if possible.

[Simca]

Exactly. Paladins have cleanse and some nifty blessings, but overall Warriors have more raid utility. The survivability difference is not nearly as large as you guys are saying either.