Black magic for Destro ?

[Tigercat]

I see your point, and the information you provide is useful, but given the disparity between simcraft and actual encounters, anecdotal evidence is often preferable. One of the main issues with procs is that they can occur when you least want them, simcraft doesn't adjust for these occasions, anecdotes do.

I heard using one's own brain with a simcraft can adjust for these things, but it's probably just a vicious rumor.

[Deleted]

I heard using one's own brain with a simcraft can adjust for these things, but it's probably just a vicious rumor.

Obviously, but then, why ask questions at all? I'm just objecting to the principle of flaming people for answering questions as 'in my experience...'. Obviously this provides data of a different kind from simcraft, but I hear using one's own brain can adjust for these things. It's quite a catchy rumour.

[nocturnus]

For Affliction bm's proc roughly equals 60-65 static haste rating, making it a decent enchant but not better than 63 spell power. In real raid circumstances 63 spell power will prove even more valuable due to its static nature. Unless they lower the internal cooldown or buff duration bm is not worth taking over 63 sp.

[wolfwood888]

It would equate out to be about ~ 70 haste. So 63 spell power or 70 haste, and this is of course on a completely static fight.

[Mordigrim]

Self-buffed as Affliction I see better dummy dps with Black Magic, by about 200-300 (4900-5000 dps with 63 spell power compared to 5200-5300 with Black Magic). That may not sound like much, but with flask and raid buffs both numbers would increase exponentially thus widening the gap. However, as Destro with Black Magic my dps either doesn't change or goes down by about 100-200 if my procs don't align. Affliction is my main spec so I gem/gear with haste as my main stat after spell power, with Destro for utility on fights where I need to switch targets and burst quickly (read: Saurfang...the conflag stun is awesome there too).

I think for Destro, 63 spell power is better, but not by much. In a raid situation, especially ICC, if you have around 3000 spell power self-buffed the extra haste may prove to be useful to get spells off quickly before having to move or switch targets...thus giving you more spells on your target than someone with less haste. But, as Destro, say it procs right before you have to move for 5-10 seconds, then it's a wasted proc since you can't cast while moving...whereas in Affliction the proc would still benefit your corruption ticks (which is the real reason for taking haste anyway) so even if it proced at the "wrong time" it would still be ok. Really, I would try both and see which works for you. I only recently switched to Black Magic so I will be trying it in a raid situation for the first time tonight, but it will be as Affliction so I still won't be able to answer your question about Destro (we already cleared first wing this week so I won't be using my off-spec).

Short answer? 63 spell power is better for Destro, but if (like me) Destro is your off-spec then Black Magic is still acceptable but not optimal.

[purebalance]

Black magic is NOT something you want as affliction(or destro).

Unless you want your corruptions to potentially fall off on the off chance of black magic, bloodlust/heroism, erradication at the same time. Even with the change to drain soul and shadow bolt working with EA, corruptions can still fall off with too much haste especially if you need to move for half a second when haunt is on cd. This will become even more apparent as you get more and more ICC gear and start pushing 20-30% haste from gear.

As far as destro, spell power is better on most areas you can do other than raw gear. Due to backdraft and empowered imp, crit and haste have such a reduced value. It's not bad on gear because there's nothing you can do about it, but do not enchant or gem for them if you can avoid doing so. Although a caveat to that is like a yellow socket with 7 sp as the bonus you want a haste/sp orange.

[harky]

You're 100% wrong in regard to Affliction.

Eradication + BL + BM Proc + Speed Potion + let's say... 900 haste rating = 285.72% haste.

Corruption duration: 6.29 seconds.
Shadow Bolt cast time: <1 second.
Drain Soul tick rate: 1.05 seconds.

So let's say you for some reason need to cast Haunt + UA + CoA all at once. That's 3 seconds. That leaves 3.29 seconds to refresh Corruption. Drain Soul has no flight time.

Even if you had to move for say 2 seconds, you'd still have enough time to refresh.

You're talking about a minor risk to things falling off compared to a massive boost in DPS. At that point even if Corruption fell off you'd still be at a gain on DPS by just manually refreshing it.

[Mordigrim]

Unless you want your corruptions to potentially fall off on the off chance of black magic, bloodlust/heroism, erradication at the same time. Even with the change to drain soul and shadow bolt working with EA, corruptions can still fall off with too much haste especially if you need to move for half a second when haunt is on cd. This will become even more apparent as you get more and more ICC gear and start pushing 20-30% haste from gear.

I have yet to have this problem, even during bloodlust+eradication+black magic+haste trinket and I currently have ~23% haste unbuffed. The insanse amount of haste when all those procs align makes shadowbolts cast so quickly that it's near impossible for corruption to fall off (not to mention the frequent shadow trance procs I get during fights). As mentioned by harky, even if it did fall off the amount of dps gained with the haste while it was ticking so quickly would still be worth it, not to mention it's an instant cast so it takes only a single GCD to reapply it. This week after switching to Black Magic my 10man group fought both Rotface and Festergut and I never had a corruption fall off and saw a dps increase from my numbers the previous week when I had +63 spell power.

As far as destro, spell power is better on most areas you can do other than raw gear. Due to backdraft and empowered imp, crit and haste have such a reduced value. It's not bad on gear because there's nothing you can do about it, but do not enchant or gem for them if you can avoid doing so. Although a caveat to that is like a yellow socket with 7 sp as the bonus you want a haste/sp orange.

Crit and haste are not worthless stats, as you implied. Crits without the empowered imp proc are still vital to destro dps, you can not simply rely on empowered imp for crits. The more you crit without empowered imp the better your dps will be. Crit is a huge dps factor for destro locks, with only one dot up destro locks need their direct spells to crit as often as possible. Backdraft only boosts the three spells after conflag, so haste is still great for all other casts, and because it stacks with backdraft makes backdraft better. Backdraft does not somehow make haste useless. That said, as destro, gemming/enchanting pure spellpower (with the exception of two purple gems for meta and any oranges for a +7 spell power socket bonus) still seems the way to go. But to suggest that crit and haste are useless and you only take them on your raw gear because "there's nothing you can do about it" is ridiculous.

[harky]

Uh, just a note... Crit and Haste in 264 gear are now both roughly equal to spirit for Destro and less than half as good as SP. Destro has severe scaling issues right now due to a lot of problems with haste caps and diminishing returns on their utterly stupid crit rates.

[ScorchHellfire]

Don't go for haste over sp unless you have like 3k unbuffed sp without fel armor and low haste...

[harky]

Don't go for haste over sp unless you have like 3k unbuffed sp without fel armor and low haste...

People need to stop coming up with this crap. For what spec? If it's for Afflic this is wrong. If it's for personal DPS as Demo this is wrong. Look back through the post, there are numbers posted on exactly why Black Magic wins for Afflic and for personal DPS as Demo. There are also numbers why it's never a good idea to favor haste as Destro over SP.

[Starshatter]

Maybe it has something to do with how I play my lock, I don't know. I always see all these posts about "if you stack Haste over SP as Destro your stupid" or something along those lines. Yet, as I play my lock, I notice that when I stack Haste > SP I get more of a DPS increase than when I go SP > Haste. (I have 2660 SP unbuffed without Fel Armor and 812 Haste). Yet everything else I read on forums and other things tells me the opposite should be true? IMO, just do what I do: use 63 SP, walk up to a target dummy, nuke the hell out of it till you go OOM and record your DPS and pay attention to your sustained damage while nuking. then go get BM, repeat target dummy practice, and compare your results.

[Mordigrim]

Uh, just a note... Crit and Haste in 264 gear are now both roughly equal to spirit for Destro and less than half as good as SP. Destro has severe scaling issues right now due to a lot of problems with haste caps and diminishing returns on their utterly stupid crit rates.

What is the ratio for destro dps concerning haste and spellpower? If it takes 3 haste to equal the dps of 1 spell power, then Black Magic is still viable (although still not optimal) because 250 / 63 = ~4. +63 spell power would still win for destro because it is static and Black Magic is not up the entire fight. However, that doesn't take movement or switching targets or any other factors into account. On a fight where you need to move>cast>move>cast or switch target>cast>switch target>cast, wouldn't the value of haste increase? The only fight that sims are anywhere near 100% accurate on is Patchwerk, and how often are you fighting him these days? I would still take +63 spell power for destro, but I don't think Black Magic (or haste in general) is the abomination to the destro gods that everyone seems to think it is. I'm not at all trying to say you should take Black Magic if destro is your main spec, just trying to better understand the numbers behind the values for haste vs. spell power for destro.

Maybe it has something to do with how I play my lock, I don't know. I always see all these posts about "if you stack Haste over SP as Destro your stupid" or something along those lines. Yet, as I play my lock, I notice that when I stack Haste > SP I get more of a DPS increase than when I go SP > Haste. (I have 2660 SP unbuffed without Fel Armor and 812 Haste). Yet everything else I read on forums and other things tells me the opposite should be true? IMO, just do what I do: use 63 SP, walk up to a target dummy, nuke the hell out of it till you go OOM and record your DPS and pay attention to your sustained damage while nuking. then go get BM, repeat target dummy practice, and compare your results.

Dummy DPS is inaccurate at best. Also, you should record your dps over a long period of time with life taps taken into account (which should prevent going oom) rather than a massive burst until you go oom. If life taps on a dummy fight are killing you, you could take 3 points in soul leech instead of demonic embrace and you could passively heal yourself instead of just having a few more hp. A massive burst until you go oom will probably favor haste because it is a short window to get a large number of spells off in, with maximum uptime for trinkets and any other procs. A long dummy fight will probably bring your DPS down to a more accurate number. Keep in mind DPS is an average number based on the amount of damage done over a specified amount of time. Thus 10 spells over 30 seconds is a less accurate average number than 100 spells over 300 seconds. There is a higher probability for 10 spells to get a disproportionate amount of crits compared to 100. The more subjects in an experiment, the more accurate your results will be.

But if haste does work for you, great. Stick with what works in reality, not what is said to work in theory.

[nocturnus]

People need to stop coming up with this crap. For what spec? If it's for Afflic this is wrong. If it's for personal DPS as Demo this is wrong. Look back through the post, there are numbers posted on exactly why Black Magic wins for Afflic and for personal DPS as Demo.

Many things you write are pretty accurate, but now you're the one spreading unfounded information. BM is never a gain compared to 63sp. Even on simulated static fights (ideal fights for items/enchants on proc), 63sp proves to be more of of a net dps gain than BM. Add realistic raid environments to it and the gap widens. Like I said before, BM roughly equals to 60-65 static haste assuming it procs instantly when off cooldown. Even if you could exploit the full duration of every proc at every moment during a real fight (e.g. Patchwerk) you would still gain more from a static increase in 63 spell power.

Also people, you cannot test the value of variables on dummies. Please, stop mentioning that you did better on a dummy with a certain item/enchant. These findings are void. To thoroughly test a variable you have to simulate iterations that last more than your oom-time or compare a great number of raid logs - which obviously is almost impossible considering that so much changes every raid.

[Mordigrim]

Many things you write are pretty accurate, but now you're the one spreading unfounded information. BM is never a gain compared to 63sp. Even on simulated fights, 63sp proves to be more of of a net dps gain than BM. Add realistic raid enviroments to it and the gap widens. Like I said before, BM roughly equals to 60-65 static haste assuming it procs instantly when off cooldown. Even if you could exploit the full duration of every proc at every moment during a real fight (e.g. Patchwerk) you would still gain more from a static increase in 63 spell power.

For what spec?

As affliction, you practically do exploit the full duration of every proc at every moment it is up because corruption should always be on the target and that is the main reason for taking haste. And the DPS increase of 250 haste for affliction is enough to make up for when it's on CD (especially if stacked with bloodlust, eradication, and/or trinket). Even more so in a real raid environment with movement and target switching. If you are unable to cast shadow bolt on your target, that haste rating for your corruption does wonders for maintaining your DPS while not landing shadow bolts.

You can't try to convert it into a static number for affliction because in raids the benefits of it don't work the way a static number does. The static number will always look better in sims because sims are stand-still-and-fire numbers and real raids are almost never stand-still-and-fire. The gap that sims show does not widen in a real raid, as you stated. In my experience using both enchants, that gap reverses in a real raid.

It all boils down to this; as affliction in raids, I see a DPS increase with Black Magic...so I don't really care that a sim gives +63 spell power a higher weight.

Also people, you cannot test the value of variables on dummies. Please, stop mentioning that you did better on a dummy with a certain item/enchant. These findings are void. To thoroughly test a variable you have to simulate iterations that last more than your oom-time or compare a great number of raid logs - which obviously is almost impossible considering that so much changes every raid.

Yet you use sims for a basis for your information? There is no difference in sim DPS tests and dummy DPS test imo. They're both good ways to look at general theories, but neither represent real accurate raid numbers.

[anathemaa]

Dummy DPS is inaccurate at best. Also, you should record your dps over a long period of time with life taps taken into account (which should prevent going oom) rather than a massive burst until you go oom. If life taps on a dummy fight are killing you, you could take 3 points in soul leech instead of demonic embrace and you could passively heal yourself instead of just having a few more hp. A massive burst until you go oom will probably favor haste because it is a short window to get a large number of spells off in, with maximum uptime for trinkets and any other procs. A long dummy fight will probably bring your DPS down to a more accurate number. Keep in mind DPS is an average number based on the amount of damage done over a specified amount of time. Thus 10 spells over 30 seconds is a less accurate average number than 100 spells over 300 seconds. There is a higher probability for 10 spells to get a disproportionate amount of crits compared to 100. The more subjects in an experiment, the more accurate your results will be.

But if haste does work for you, great. Stick with what works in reality, not what is said to work in theory.

Holy crap, someone with a good grasp of math and the rules behind averages. If you weren't a dude, I'd be in love.

Dummies aren't reliable dps benchmarks, everyone knows that. But since that is all you have for live personal testing outside of a static raid composition, its better than nothing. I just love seeing people go through the effort of actual testing, it is a good mindset to be in. Just do the testing properly, as Mordigrim explained. Sims aren't accurate either, but they are an easier/lazier way of testing changes, so they are quite popular, but I digress.

[nocturnus]

For what spec?

As affliction, you practically do exploit the full duration of every proc at every moment it is up because corruption should always be on the target and that is the main reason for taking haste. And the DPS increase of 250 haste for affliction is enough to make up for when it's on CD (especially if stacked with bloodlust, eradication, and/or trinket). Even more so in a real raid environment with movement and target switching. If you are unable to cast shadow bolt on your target, that haste rating for your corruption does wonders for maintaining your DPS while not landing shadow bolts.

You can't try to convert it into a static number for affliction because in raids the benefits of it don't work the way a static number does. The static number will always look better in sims because sims are stand-still-and-fire numbers and real raids are almost never stand-still-and-fire. The gap that sims show does not widen in a real raid, as you stated. In my experience using both enchants, that gap reverses in a real raid.

It all boils down to this; as affliction in raids, I see a DPS increase with Black Magic...so I don't really care that a sim gives +63 spell power a higher weight.
Yet you use sims for a basis for your information? There is no difference in sim DPS tests and dummy DPS test imo. They're both good ways to look at general theories, but neither represent real accurate raid numbers.

You didn't understand a word I wrote. I'll try to reformulate: BM is the kind of enchant that will exploit its full potential on a static fight. For the simple reason that all your abilities will be affected by it. 63 spell power, is itself a static enchant, providing you with a static buff - at all times, thus not relying on a proc. Now, if BM proves to be lower in ideal situations for it, what do you think will happen when it's used in non-ideal situations? The gap will merely widen.

You say that in 'your experience' BM proved to be a better enchant? I would love to know how you established this conclusion. Because if you're right and you did thorough testing on it, I'll be the first one to re-enchant my weapon.

It's simple really, calculate the net dps gain from BM, including the corruption scale-factor, then calculate the net dps gain from 63 spell power, add common sense to your findings and voila, there's your best enchant. When I (and most raiding warlocks for that matter) did this, 63 spell power came on top.

About the dummy testing, well, suit yourself. If you think you can actually measure anything besides spell behaviour on it, you should really use them. I put the simcrafts I use into context, meaning that their outcome isn't written in stone. Simcraft can function as a 60 minute dummy fight, which takes buffs, debuffs and execute ranges into account. For me, that's reason enough not to test anything buf spell behaviour on dummies.

[Mordigrim]

You didn't understand a word I wrote. I'll try to reformulate: BM is the kind of enchant that will exploit its full potential on a static fight. For the simple reason that all your abilities will be affected by it. 63 spell power, is itself a static enchant, providing you with a static buff - at all times, thus not relying on a proc. Now, if BM proves to be lower in situations ideal situations what do you think will happen when it's used in non-ideal situations? The gap will merely widen.

You say that in 'your experience' BM proved to be a better enchant? I would love to know how you established this conclusion. Because if you're right and you did thorough testing on it, I'll be the first one to re-enchant my weapon.

It's simple really, calculate the net dps gain from BM, including the corruption scale-factor, then calculate the net dps gain from 63 spell power, add common sense to your findings and voila, there's your best enchant. When I (and most raiding warlocks for that matter) did this, 63 spell power came on top.

I understand what you wrote, I simply disagree. The bolded section is not necessarily true. It is seemingly sound logic, but you are not taking into account the nature of the proc and the buff it applies. A "non-ideal" situation would be one in which you can not cast on your target for whatever reason. In said situation, the Black Magic proc will do more for your dps than +63 spell power because of the buff it applies to corruption which is your highest damage dealing spell when you can not cast shadow bolt. However, +63 spell power will benefit shadow bolt more than Black Magic if you never have to stop casting it between refreshing dots. So, +63 is better in sims because sims represent a perfect situation but Black Magic can be extremely helpful in non-ideal situations that sims can't account for. The nature of Black Magic is that it can help during a non-ideal situation more than +63 can, so your logic of "if it fails in ideal, it will fail worse in non-ideal" no longer applies. It seems it may be more beneficial in non-ideal than it is in ideal situations. And in raid environments, especially ICC, there are far more non-ideal situations than ideal situations.

The problem is that you're basing everything off of calculations and sims instead of use in actual raids. You can not calculate DPS for any fight involving any movement, target switching, random debuffs/buffs, etc (which is practically every single fight in the game). Sims can only show you the ideal capabilities of a certain spec/rotation/gear setup/etc...sims and calculations will never ever be able to produce numbers for actual raid boss encounters.

My testing is not extensive (yet) and I did not record anything with the intention of presenting it as evidence for any argument (mostly notes on scratch paper tbh). But I can say this, in my weekly ICC10 group I saw a DPS gain (an average of about 300) this week after switching from +63 spell power to Black Magic.

About the dummy testing, well, suit yourself. If you think you can actually measure anything besides spell behaviour on it, you should really use them. I put the simcrafts I use into context, meaning that their outcome isn't written in stone. Simcraft can function as a 60 minute dummy fight, which takes buffs, debuffs and execute ranges into account. For me, that's reason enough not to test anything buf spell behaviour on dummies.

A sim will show you the maximum capabilities of a specific spec/rotation/gear setup in a perfect environment. A dummy will show you the average capabilities of a real player with the specific spec/rotation/gear setup in an ideal environment. I don't see how you can dislike one but use the other as the first source of your research. But hey, do what works for you, no need to convince me why.

[Skoorb]

I currently use Black Magic as a Destruction spec'd Warlock. My base haste is really low, only about 440, so the haste proc is really nice.

[nocturnus]

It seems it may be more beneficial in non-ideal than it is in ideal situations. And in raid environments, especially ICC, there are far more non-ideal situations than ideal situations.

The problem is that you're basing everything off of calculations and sims instead of use in actual raids.

My testing is not extensive (yet) and I did not record anything with the intention of presenting it as evidence for any argument (mostly notes on scratch paper tbh). But I can say this, in my weekly ICC10 group I saw a DPS gain (an average of about 300)

I actually think that your view on BM's ideal situation is flawed. I'll give an example: If it procs during movement you won't be able to cast anything and you won't reapply corr manually for it will be a net dps loss. You'll be able to refresh your corr upon standing still, thus resulting in not exploiting the buff's full duration. 63sp is a static (constant) buff, that does not only apply to your sb, but to literally every other spell in your arsenal. Therefore it will suffer less from real raid mechanics. My theory is based on this and not on the results of the rather simplistic tool called simcraft. I think, the ideal situation for BM to work best, is a static fight and even here, it loses from 63sp. This, whether it's proof or not is open for discussion, has shown to be the case in my iterations too, both static as helter-scelter.

Also, my goal is not to convince anyone, discussion and debate bring awareness, which directly increases my performance. I like the fact that you're so enthousiastic about this enchant, it would be nice to have viable alternatives to our standard enchantments. But until you provide concrete evidence of it's superiority, I will have to categorize your findings as mere opinions. A dps gain of 300 between 2 10 man raids is unlikely to be connected to your new enchant. There are too many variables that make your dps fluctuate. My last rotface dps was 9.8k at kill, the raid before 9.2k at kill. Nothing has changed in my personal situation, yet myriads of variables caused this difference.

I agree that we disagree and until you have a more 'scientific' approach to your theories it will stay that way