Moderators update, AE Tanking, Comics

[QSPhoenix]

Well, I didn't let people die, unless I died, so I must've done something right I don't care if you believe me or not, I had to fight this(your) attitude for over 3.5 years, people taking Paladin tanks because they'd be better tanks. Quite a complex I tell you. Regardless, my guildies and friends knew who to turn to if they were in need of a tank. That means alot more than your theoretical babbling about probability. Let's just say that I beat the odds. Everytime.

And I'm really, really not bluffing. But I doubt I can convince you of that, so this debate is mute.

What attitude? Your attitide is ZOMG LEWK AT MEE I'M SUPERMAN TANKING 9- MOBS!!111.

I didn't care at all who tanked in an heroic (talking about classes here), as long as they kept agro, knew how to pull and knew the mechanincs that needed to be known of an instance.

But when someone gets into bullshit like ZOMG I'M AWESOME /flex i.e.

[Stuff]
And yes, I am the best tBC Warrior that I encountered. I've leveled 1-60, to 70 in full prot, leveling only on dungeons and a rare class quest. I was the best in Vanilla as well tbh. And the sad truth of all this bragging is, I'm not even lying. Just never really had the guild to show it off in, since Warriors had a bloody tough time getting in guilds and I have had personality issues (I was young):P But I guess you figured that out already hehe.
[Stuff]

It doesn't make you look any better, specially over the internet.

Yes, most people used Paladins for heroics and some raids, I don't think that it's still the case though, am I one of those people? I didn't and I don't care in heroics, specially in TBC since we had to spam trade looking for a tank, and I didn't mind in raids as long as we killed things.

[Vespian]

[...]

You should have attempted to read it in context to the quote I replied to. There has never been a statistic such as best tank. Claiming I'd be the one would be silly. Was I good, damn yes. But that the best comment was just a parody on the former mentioned quote. I know, text sometimes doesn't bring across what spoken words do.

Nonetheless, your behavior is appalling and below any standard..correction, I'll take that back. I find it personally offensive, but I might have asked for it.

[HiltonLange]

Thanks for your replies Vespian. I know you don't care what anyone thinks, but here's what I think anyway. Since you don't care, don't let it bother you. You threw out a casual claim that you could claim 9+ heroic mobs in TBC without thinking anyone would challenge you on it. When challenged, your story got taller and taller, but you're having to wildly backpedal. 10 seconds of no dps? Good luck, what about healing aggro? And your claims of "I could tank 9 mobs easily" quickly degenerated into "There were 9 mobs this one time, when a warlock feared". Incidentally the situation you mentioned had a few non-elites, plus... why was the warlock fearing if all the mobs were sticking to you? Unless of course, a loose mob from the initial 5-pull was attacking him?

The fact is, while you were tanking heroics in your Kara gear, I and many other warriors, were tanking heroics in our regular and heroic gear, and finding success by using the tools at our disposal. Marking targets, coordinating CC, and *most importantly*, pulling responsibly so that 9 elites didn't rush us and wipe the party. I'm sorry, but those skills, entirely missing now in WotLK, are the real signs of skill and ability to tank effectively.

I'll leave the thread now, please don't make wild claims in future, it just makes constructive debate turn into e-peen comparisons.

"9 mobs are easy" backpedaling.

To be frank, I could tank 9 mobs easily with my Warrior,even on heroic, and that's with Karazhan gear.

I've never had issues keeping threat on anything below 9 mobs.

I'm not saying that I never had a sweat over it, but I was damn good.

Losing agro isn't bad, as long as you know how and when you're going to get it back.

(this one time) The warlock feared one of the adds into that room and they came back with nearly that entire room

"Who is Vespian"?

And yes, I am the best tBC Warrior that I encountered. I've leveled 1-60, to 70 in full prot, leveling only on dungeons and a rare class quest. I was the best in Vanilla as well tbh.

And the sad truth of all this bragging is, I'm not even lying.

I've considered many times to actually make movies about my tanking..but I'm not really that kind of attention whore.

There has never been a statistic such as best tank. Claiming I'd be the one would be silly.

Frequently it's people's own words which do most of the arguing for me. Thanks for saving me additional typing.

[QSPhoenix]

[Awesome ownage]

You took it out of context man!
/sarcasm

[Vashdakari]

Although Vespian's claims are somewhat dubious, i think the main point he's making is being overlooked by a bunch of people who think warrior tanks couldn't tank more than 4 things (or less) pre-WotLK. The truth is, a well played warrior could tank several mobs, as long as the healing was there, and the dps wasn't dumb. Sure thunderclap didn't have unlimited targets like it does now, but you could spam it more. WotLK buffed the damage of Thunderclap, and to avoid "spammy" abilities, they upped the CD on it. Tab TC'ing while rotating Devastates, Revenges, Concussion Blows, and Shield Slams was an extremely viable form of AoE tanking through Vanilla and BC. How else did high level raiding guilds make it into TK pre-attunement nerf, if warriors couldn't tank SH?

My guild actually didn't use a Paladin Tank until we had already cleared Hyjal. It wasn't until our Druid tank disappeared for two weeks that our GM finally granted a Holy Pally's wish to become a tank. Prior to that decision, we were doing all of Hyjal with two warrior tanks and the druid, which means the first week the druid was gone, it was nothing but the two warrior tanks. Sure there was a lot of kiting, and sure the first few waves we lost a dps or two, but we cleared it that night without wiping. I don't think i've ever had a more stressful night of tanking, as that night with two warriors in Hyjal.

Do i know how many mobs were on me at a given time? No. Did we use a lot of NPC's? Yes. Did the guild faceroll through it? Hell no. In fact i think the guild had more fun that night as we utilized kiting, CC, and intelligent threat management, more so than any night once the faceroll pally tank entered the fray. If anything, i only appreciated the Pally because it allowed me to swap DPS gear on easy packs and WW/Cleave dps for lulz. On top of that, our Pally tank became a very reliable tank, and continued tanking all the way to Sunwell.

As for tanking large packs of 9+ mobs in an oshit moment, the only move i think that would work for that is; Battlestance, Retaliation, AoE Taunt, Defensive Stance, Spell Reflect. and then tab Devastate as usual. (Pre WotLK mechanics)

All the posts that seem to be in denial of competent warrior tanks, have clearly never been with a well played warrior tank. Pre-WotLK, where threat actually mattered, the reason Pally tanks were so desirable in SH was because of how easy they could tank. If you deny that, you're just lying to yourself. Hell, i even looked for Pally tanks on my alts, because they made 5 mans so easy. To play a warrior in a 5 man pre-WotLK actually took skill, and the sad truth is, there were a lot of warriors who were forced into tanking because of the Tank shortage, and they honestly had no clue what they were doing. While any warrior tank worth anything could give a damn about 5 mans, cause they were raiding. Whereas, any noob who could consecrate and cast holy shield could be a pally tank.

@ Vespian
The only thing i'm doubting of your claims is that you leveled 1-60 as Prot in Vanilla. Nooooobody leveled as Prot in Vanilla. Hell, half the tanks in Vanilla weren't even specced prot. It wasn't until Devestate that prot even became a somewhat acceptable leveling build, and even then (60-70) they would spend their whole day in instances.

As for me, i'll make no such claims of being the best warrior around....

I'll let screenshots do the talking;

:P

[Nessa]

Tanks AE Tanking

3)Druid tanks are jealous of anyone with more than one button.

Is true....
*macro maul to swipe button*
*swipeswipeswipeswipeswipeswipeMANGLEswipeswipeswipeswipeswipeswipeswipe*

but i like my teddy :3

[QSPhoenix]

Tanks AE Tanking

3)Druid tanks are jealous of anyone with more than one button.

Is true....
*macro maul to swipe button*
*swipeswipeswipeswipeswipeswipeMANGLEswipeswipeswipeswipeswipeswipeswipe*

but i like my teddy :3

That's what I read the first time. But I agree, druid tanking needs some love so you we can stop wiping because the tank falls asleep.

[TheRabidDeer]

"paladin manner of generating AE damage and threat is probably too good" - it would be good enough if DPS would have enough brain to wait till consecration make at least one tick on mobs... Usualy I run to pack of mobs (no charge like war, druid) I hit first mob, running to second and 3th mob to gather them and aoe - but dps is start nuking first mob while i run to second...

yesterdays random HC (HoL) dps table:
1. mage 3,6k dps - always nuking one mob from a pack - mostly not my primary target
2. me - pala tank 2,2k dps
3. priest 1,6k dps
4. DK 836 dps
5. shammy healer 200 dps

- for that group my AE tanking threat was low... :-)
(because they never waited, till I gather the mobs and even few times they pulled pack from front or some packs from back - which I skipped)

You are doing it wrong. Avengers shield (or taunt if its down) -> judge -> hammer of the righteous -> consecrate (usually not necessary but hey, may as well) -> SoR etc etc. If you are having trouble AE tanking as a paladin then you really need to reconsider tanking.

[Warbec]

4) Long-term, the paladin manner of generating AE damage and threat is probably too good, especially given how simple it is. To be honest, we have very mixed feelings on the whole AE tanking game. We brought the druid and warrior more in line with the paladin for fear of recreating the Shattered Halls / Mount Hyjal experience, where other tanks just weren't competitive. What that has led to of course is the AE tank + AE style of damage for almost every pull. You need the tools to be able to tank legitimate adds fights (imagine lots of incoming mobs), but does that mean every pull needs to devolve into that? We'd like to see less AE overall, so buffing everyone's AE tools isn't going to be tops on our agenda. That does however mean that we really can't afford to have a "best AE tank", and while things are more fair there than they were in BC, they aren't fair enough.

Sorry for going off topic here, but these kinds of questions have come up a lot lately, so I figured I'd just share some of our discussions publicly.

ZOMG!!! PALAS CAN HOLD AGGRO!!!
PLZ NERF!!!

-.-
Seriously... DPS is increasing in such a way that we can have problems creating aggro when DPS decides to AoEDPS in every group.
(and I´m talking about when you get those PUGs where DPS doesn´t care about markings or CC or anything they just run wild and pull before you even do)

[Raegon7]

Why does Boubouille even post about Teh Gladiators? I have yet to find someone who thinks its funny.

And Paladins couldnt tank all of Hyjal trash. A warrior was very useful for the abomination waves, as paladins just took much more damage during that time.

I like it, I don't laugh tho, but to be fair I never laugh. :'(

[CCloak]

The speed with which you can gain gear has nothing to do with level of skill required by the game. The speed is there so people can gear alts fast. The lack of skill is evident in mechanics, not progression. Utility spells are rarely used (even in raids); everyone simply sticks to their role be it dps, healing or tanking and maybe uses some extra ability every third boss to handle a mechanic. Utilities, as in crowd control, are rarely used. Note that the WoW community misuses the term crowd control badly. People only consider absolute CC that removes an enemy from the game as CC. Any condition that controls/limits the activity of a mob is CC. This is were "deskilling" can be observed. Group and raid synergy have been diminished in favor of individual effect probably because individual effect on a specific role is easier to quantify and balance around.

The reason to degrade CC usage is an effort to make building raids less tougher, as utilities are very specific among classes and designing encounters that rely on lots of utility usage would evidently limit on how raids can be build, which could adversely result in a guild simply switching a bad player from a good player because of the character selection screen. Even today, there are people that are blaming shamans finding its place in every raid because they happen to be the only class that brings bloodlust/heroism(this is usually evident in realms where shamans, particularly dps shamans, are rare to find).

[Markluzz]

[blizzquote="Ghostcrawler;http://blue.mmo-champion.com/26/22748775349-when-will-the-prot-dps-buff-come.html]Druids are jealous of anyone with more than one button. [/blizzquote"]

Thats so not true the only classes im jealous of on my druid are

1.A Death Knight's army of the dead and awesome AoE
2.A mage's teleport to city and awesome damage! So not fair, my boomkin cant do that!
3.Paladin, should I say more they are already best at everything, especially bubble hearths (I've actually seen a pally do that in an onyxia, i raid kicked him for being retarded) we druids deserve all that!
4.Priest, they have all those absorbs, druids deserve at least 1 shield thing to put on tanks!
5.Rogue, why cant we be in cat form and dps like them, we are basically the same thing?!
6.Shamans, self rez's, heroism, they are clearly overpowered and we need their abilities!
7.Warrior, they are high dps and super high threat we need that!

Warlocks, they are fine and have nothing we need

Hunters, we dont want their abilities we dont want to inherent their noobness that you recieve just rolling one, its the only character I ever stand in the fire or pull aggro on, druids dont want that.

[d/c]

Definitely digging the MMO-Report. Keep'em coming when they're available if possible.

[Niissa]

[blizzquote="Ghostcrawler;http://blue.mmo-champion.com/26/22748775349-when-will-the-prot-dps-buff-come.html]Druids are jealous of anyone with more than one button. [/blizzquote"]

Thats so not true the only classes im jealous of on my druid are

1.A Death Knight's army of the dead and awesome AoE
2.A mage's teleport to city and awesome damage! So not fair, my boomkin cant do that!
3.Paladin, should I say more they are already best at everything, especially bubble hearths (I've actually seen a pally do that in an onyxia, i raid kicked him for being retarded) we druids deserve all that!
4.Priest, they have all those absorbs, druids deserve at least 1 shield thing to put on tanks!
5.Rogue, why cant we be in cat form and dps like them, we are basically the same thing?!
6.Shamans, self rez's, heroism, they are clearly overpowered and we need their abilities!
7.Warrior, they are high dps and super high threat we need that!

Warlocks, they are fine and have nothing we need

Hunters, we dont want their abilities we dont want to inherent their noobness that you recieve just rolling one, its the only character I ever stand in the fire or pull aggro on, druids dont want that.

Is there any thought process to your comment? It is so far from a half way intelligent reply ...

Blizzard expanded the ignore list due to people like you.

[Miranger]

I think alot of people who saw the ICC 25man content with a warrior tank saw some issues on that regard. I healed a few times 10man content and saw alot of spiking with highly geared warrior and feral tanks not so much with pallies or DKs.

[Vitamens]

DLC was GREAT!!!!

Nerf AE tanking to the ground.. Im ready for Blizz to bring back CC and make it useful again...