WotLK too easy for Casuals (fine for hardcore)

[Phenomina]

That is the big riddle!!!!!!!

About 1000 people have actually cleared Naxx

BUT:

3 years later, 100 000 ppl on MMO champion claim they facerolled it back in "the good old day when the game was awesome and we had to walk to school barefoot in the snow for 10 miles and it was uphill in both directions"

:

I hear ya!

I miss those good ol' days... Boss strat's were the most difficult and unique ideas ever, PvP was balanced, world PvP was bountiful, the grass in Goldshire was greener and people really lived... You could repair for 5G! Life was glorious! * sigh * :

According to MMO player status, I'm probably the worst player in the world... I can't faceroll most of this stuff :'(

[Gron]

Ermm... I would not say Naxx 2.0 is not a faceroll for semi-intelligent people.
I believe most of the players are semi-intelligent.

I also believe not many people want to raid, they don't have the time/dedication, will to do it NO MATTER HOW EASY Blizzard is going to make raids. Still a lot of people have not cleared Naxx 2.0 yet I don't see how easier you can do a raid (ah sorry I am lying... there is VOA)!


Let's not hijack this thread on "raids are faceroll or not". The OP was saying something about heroics being too easy, and I have to agree with him there - there is quite a big difference between making a heroic 5-man casual friendly or retard friendly. I think notching up the difficulty for 5-mans next expansion should be done - they were easy in blue items too.

And don't hurt ICC much, at least this raid instance is one of the better things that have happened in WOTLK.

[jontaxe]

The only reason not many people killed Queen so far(including us) its because there are too many idiots in this game.

While I realize that you are ranting about your guild, Queen is not faceroll. Not the first time you try her. We 1 shot Putricide last night (so we aren't total idiots) but Queen handed us our fucking asses and sent us limping home. There is not a lot you can do when you get feared into the shadow.

My favorite wipe was when due to lag, or a bug, or the general spite of the universe one of our DPS bit a second one and got MC'ed anyway. Do you know how quickly an MCd DPS with Essence of the Blood Queen will slaughter your raid?

[dazline]

personally i think the issue with wotlk is the multi tier tokens. Even in TBC you could buy gear via badges. However the badges were at that gear lvl. So basicly old content that is loleasy is constantly handing people gear afew tiers ahead of the content they cleared to get it.

basicly would be like making kara drop sunwell gear. Then saying "well kara is too easy now"

^^^^^ this is wotlk

naxx dropping toc ilvl gear.

[Phenomina]

Ermm... I would not say Naxx 2.0 is not a faceroll for semi-intelligent people.
I believe most of the players are semi-intelligent.

I also believe not many people want to raid, they don't have the time/dedication, will to do it NO MATTER HOW EASY Blizzard is going to make raids. Still a lot of people have not cleared Naxx 2.0 yet I don't see how easier you can do a raid (ah sorry I am lying... there is VOA)!


Let's not hijack this thread on "raids are faceroll or not". The OP was saying something about heroics being too easy, and I have to agree with him there - there is quite a big difference between making a heroic 5-man casual friendly or retard friendly. I think notching up the difficulty for 5-mans next expansion should be done - they were easy in blue items too.

And don't hurt ICC much, at least this raid instance is one of the better things that have happened in WOTLK.

They were not that easy when healers had 13K mana and tanks had 23K health and fights lasted longer with DPS doing like 900 - 1500 dps :-\

Today healers have 30K mana and tanks have like 45K health and DPS butns bosses down in 12 seconds with 5K DPS ;D

[Keoren]

If you find all that content faceroll you are indeed a unique snowflake.

Without being an unique snowflake, I must say Professor and Blood-Queen are in fact extremely simple fights on normal as long as people do what they're told to. Both fights, especially Queen, lack fight-altering random factors so as long as you execute them as supposed to there should only be the occasional, mostly acceptable human mistake. Most people simply aren't very good at this game. Of course it doesn't make them any less important as players, it's just bell curve seen in action.

On topic, I think the issue you are describing can be on spot depending on the person. I believe there are many, many casuals who like the current system along with many, many who would love more challenge from 5-mans.

Personally TBC heroics got me all hyped up when I did them after leveling to 70. Doing level 80 heroics in comparison felt extremely boring and unlike the TBC heroics which I enjoyed doing for very long, I dread the very idea of doing my daily heroic at WotLK.

I would love to see one solution being a slight 5-man progression path. WotLK almost completely removed this by planning all heroics available in the release around the same numbers. If in Cataclysm we'll see the starting heroics as something easy like WotLK heroics are with a path that slowly leads us to harder and harder heroics until we reach couple that catch up to what we had in TBC, I'll be happy. The Icecrown heroics were a nice step to the right direction, but can't alone redeem the whole heroic pool.

[jontaxe]

1) Heroics are too easy:

Words words words....
You know... 4 months ago no one was saying shit about heroics, no one cared about the fate of poor heroic HoL but now, Blizz throws a couple of rewards worth doing and all of a sudden there are 10 threads a day about "Wah heroics too easy now."

I don't know if I agree with Blizz decision to send us back there, but whatever. Here's the deal:

It's 2 frost badges. You know what that's worth to me? About 15 - 20 mins of my time. Hell, even now I sometime slack off on running them because I can't be bothered.

Do you know what would happen if you made the damn Nexus scale with gear, or have lethal trash packs or CC requirements or take a leet group an hour to go through and destroy pugs or whatever other dumbass ideas I've seen to make them harder?

I'd quit running them and take a little longer to get my t10 set. So would everyone else. And doubtless there would be "heroics empty now Blizz fix" threads along with "casual scrubs want everything handed to them, won't run hard heroics" threads. And the poor brand new 80s would again have no way to gear up other than running 5 man ToC forever.

It's 2 frost badges. I get home at ~7, raid starts at 8:30. Do you think I have any time or even the vaguest of desires to sit through an hour of your gear scaling heroic for 2 lousy frost badges?

Hell no, I'll watch Jeopardy or something instead and skip that crap.

As an aside, here is one place I disagree w/ Blizz: I think 10 mans should have been harder than 25s and dropped better loot. Further I think there should have been a 2nd set of heroic 5 mans that were damn near impossible and dropped better loot than that. It is easier to find and coordinate 5 and 10 people than 25. The 10 mans should have been the hard ones.

[Entitygm]

I also believe not many people want to raid, they don't have the time/dedication, will to do it NO MATTER HOW EASY Blizzard is going to make raids.

Lot of this. For years common knowledge has been that unless you dedicate 3-5 hours a night for several nights a week, you don't count as a player and deserve nothing but junk because obviously anything you do can't be as worthy as raiding. I tried that for a long while, realized I was sick of scheduling things around game time, realized I hated the people obsessed with progression who forgot this is supposed to be a game not a job, and now I just show up for raids when I feel like it.

Fortunately Blizzard realizes that this is how a huge portion of their player base feels (what was the stat, 8% of ranked guilds even made it that far?) and decided that there's more than one way to skin a cat, or whatever the saying is, and catered to the broad player base rather than the vocal minority. Well played, Blizzard

[SirLancelittle]

I wanted to respond to a large number of posts but I just picked a few the express some of the common sentiments. One thing i noticed a number of people seemed to miss was the fact this post was centered around casuals. Not hardcore raiders, though I believe some of these problem do affect hardcore players too. Just not as many.

To your 1a, people leave too quickly for that now. 1-2 wipes and they're gone.
1b, if mob difficulty is going to increase the gear reward should as well, otherwise you're running something that is harder for gear that you no longer need. This would mean blizz making multiple item levels for the same item for heroics. Which in that case, why run anything else at all? Get gear from heros, heros drop better gear, run them for the better gear, etc.
1c, it would still be a time issue instead of a difficulty issue. You would just be able to farm a fast resetable instance for badges instead of having to do randoms.
1d, The BOP gem idea is what they did in BC. It sucked. You would have to run an entire hero for the one gem that you needed and hope that you won the roll when it did finally drop for you. It would bring up the same issue as 1a, they'd have to keep adding stats to the hero gear. I'd prefer that they spend their time on other content.

2a, they've given CC to everone. They've said they wanted to make at least a few pulls in heros un-aoe'able. Yes I made up a word.
2b, threat wasn't always a problem in BC. Ever run with a pally tank back then? Also, trying to tank mobs as a dps is a bad idea, always. It took a lot more coordination to get through pulls back then, yes, but you also didn't have the random tool and at least personally I ran a lot more with people I knew. I'd prefer not to run instances that are equivalent to Slabs with 90% of the people I've gotten through the random tool.

3, if casuals run raids so much later than everyone else, and they out gear it so much that they can make up for the loss of 6 dps on an otherwise tight enrage timer, why are they doing the raid? You can be a casual raider and still do the current content.

1a. Yes people do leave quickly. However, I believe this is because they expect to clear it easily. I think that if heroics were better balanced, people's expectations would change and this wouldn't be a problem.
1b. Perhaps I explained my idea poorly. All I'm saying in that the hardest heroics should drop gear that is between the current level of content and the previous level. This is similar to what is happening now with badges.
1c. yes, getting badges if you were trying to catch up would still be a time issue. I don't really care as much about that, if people want to grind then good for them. I'm just trying to give players who want difficult interesting content to be able to have it and be rewarded for it. Let the grinders grind.
1d. I'm not saying the BC way worked perfectly, I think there could be ways to improve it. The final boss always drops 2 gems. Or it just drops the patterns. Like it or not even raiders spend a significant amount of time in heroics (15-20 mins * 7 days a week = 2 hours a week). If people are going to spend that much of their time there, it should be better designed.

2a. They gave CC to most classes yes. However, I would argue that in heroics they really haven't forced you to use it. I also would agree that having CC on every pull is just as boring as having CC on no pulls. I hope they will fulfill this promise of theirs in Cataclysm
2b. I actually tried to refer to the inbalance in tank threat in my original post (without picking on pallies). I remember very well how much easier it was to have a pally tank in heroics which is why I mentioned that tank threat would have to be well balanced. I think it is also true that I wouldn't want to run hard heroics with a lot of people in LFG but I think part of the problem is that hard heroics don't exist. Many players have developed poor habits as a result of not having to pay attention in heroics (I know I often watch hulu while running heroics). I think many players would improve their play in heroics if they were actually difficult. And I don't think running heroics with guildies is a bad idea, I quite enjoyed that in BC. For the recorf though, shadow labs is probably my favorite heroic ever and one my most memorable runs through there was with a PuG.

3. I'm pretty sure I didn't do a great job explaining this. The first problem here is 10 mans. You can get gear from heroic badges that is better than 10 man gear. If a casual tries to join a 10 man PuG it will often contain about 5 raiders from 25 mans (who clearly outgear the place) and 5 casuals (whose gear is often right on par). This means the group will outgear the instance. Generally 25 mans are much much harder to PuG and it is often hard to find a 25 man PuG until the raid has been out for a long time (on my server for example 10 man ICC is being Pugged but 25 man is not) meaning that when enough people start Pugging it a significant fraction of the raid will have cleared it tons of times (meaning they will be over geared).

For the OP, I want to first challenge you to link your armory so we can see that you've downed the new wings.
Lots of people like to comment on how easy a fight is just because some guild on their server has downed something.

Heroics are easy for the most part yes. I do about 3-4 random heroics a day, some of the group are terrible, the tank has 28k hp, the dps does under 2kdps. Get a under geared group for HoR and tell me it's easy.

Your definition is not what casual means. Casual is not a guild that raids 3 nights a week, casual is a person who raids sometimes and does some random heroics in their offtime.

If you want a challenge go to ICC, you will find a decent challenge.

This post here really speaks to my comment that WotLK is hard enough for hardcore players but not so much for Casuals. Like you said "casual is a person who raids sometimes and does some random heroics in their offtime." This person probably has not really had a chance to run ICC, they are mostly running heroics. So the fact that ICC is hard is great for the hardcore player, but not so much for the casual. I'm not questioning how hard the new wings are.

I've run a ton of heroics and occasionally you will get a group like you are talking about but it is rare. I think it is extremely unfortunate that the only time these heroics are at all challenging is when everyone is very poorly geared.

Part nr 3: The reason you have enrage timers is to actually put some pressure on the dps to perform well. With no enrage timers you could just go with 2 tanks, 3 dps and 5 healers in a 10-man and never die.

As I mentioned above my enrage timer explanation was apparently poorly done. The problem is not that bosses have an enrage timer. The problem is that the majority of the difficulty comes from the enrage timer. This means that gear is one the most important factors. Part of the problem is that these encounters are designed so that no one person can wipe the raid. Let me give you a few examples where a fight can have mechanics that wouldn't be beatable by your "2 tanks, 3 dps and 5 healers" but still don't focus on an enrage timer. I've picked a bunch from BC (early on in the expansion so hopefully most people have seen them). A number of these could still become overgeared, but the threshold is much much higher

1) Shade of Aran. If someone moved during flame wreath it usually instantly killed 2-3 people.
3) Netherspite. If no one stood in the red beam the boss would one shot people. If no one stood in the blue beam the boss would do double damage. If no one stood in the green beam the boss would heal to full.
2) Hyrdoss (first boss in SCC). The hardest part was the transition phase when he changed from water to poison. If the dps didn't stop dpsing usually someone would pull aggro causing 3 times as many adds to spawn. These extra adds would proceed to 1 shot everyone.

What you should notice in these examples is that a mistake doesn't 'decrease the dps being done by 5%' or 'increase the dmg taken by a single player by 20%.' A mistake doubles the damage taken by the raid or one shots people. Or it decreases the damage done by the raid by 50%. These sorts of mistakes can't be overcome by increasing your gear by 10%. Yes these encounters have enrage timers, but they aren't the focus. If you hit the enrage timer on netherspite it was usually because he healed 50% of his life because of the green beam, and 10% more dps wouldn't have mattered.

It's 2 frost badges. You know what that's worth to me? About 15 - 20 mins of my time. Hell, even now I sometime slack off on running them because I can't be bothered.

Do you know what would happen if you made the damn Nexus scale with gear, or have lethal trash packs or CC requirements or take a leet group an hour to go through and destroy pugs or whatever other dumbass ideas I've seen to make them harder?

I'd quit running them and take a little longer to get my t10 set. So would everyone else. And doubtless there would be "heroics empty now Blizz fix" threads along with "casual scrubs want everything handed to them, won't run hard heroics" threads. And the poor brand new 80s would again have no way to gear up other than running 5 man ToC forever.

It's 2 frost badges. I get home at ~7, raid starts at 8:30. Do you think I have any time or even the vaguest of desires to sit through an hour of your gear scaling heroic for 2 lousy frost badges?

Hell no, I'll watch Jeopardy or something instead and skip that crap.

As an aside, here is one place I disagree w/ Blizz: I think 10 mans should have been harder than 25s and dropped better loot. Further I think there should have been a 2nd set of heroic 5 mans that were damn near impossible and dropped better loot than that. It is easier to find and coordinate 5 and 10 people than 25. The 10 mans should have been the hard ones.

Even though Jontaxe appears to be disagreeing with me here I think he is spot on with most of his comments and actually is reinforcing my points. Let me explain:
First off he points out that even though Heroics drop good gear (Frost Badges) he often can’t be bothered to run them. Why? Because they are BORING, he would rather watch Jeopardy than run boring heroics. Well essentially he is saying that if he became a casual player (and thus would mostly only have time to run heroics) he would rather quit Wow. I personally think this is a problem.
I also find his second comment interesting: that if heroics were extremely hard he wouldn’t run them because he wouldn’t have time (and 2 frost badges wouldn’t be worth it). Although this might make it a little harder to find a group, I believe this actually exactly what Wow players should want. People who enjoying raiding, but don’t have time for heroics should not be running them 3 patches into an expansion. People who enjoy raiding and have even more time should get some small bonus for running them (like 2 extra frost badges). And people who don’t raid, who only have time for heroics, should get something if they run easy ones (gear-up badges for normal instance) but something better if they overcome the more interesting/difficult heroics. I think this would be much more ideal than everyone running them because they have to, and hating it.

[jontaxe]

First off he points out that even though Heroics drop good gear (Frost Badges) he often can’t be bothered to run them. Why? Because they are BORING, he would rather watch Jeopardy than run boring heroics.

I don't believe that is what Jontaxe was saying at all. I believe what he was actually saying is that even 15 mins is sometimes too long for 2 frost emblems. Any longer and I don't believe Jontaxe would ever set foot in a heroic, I don't care if you made it more fun than a roller coaster.

I didn't set foot in heroics back when they were released. We all had Sunwell/BT gear. My guild levelled up, levelled up alts, went off to Xmas holidays, and hit Naxx. I avoided that nonsense back when it was more challenging, what in the world makes you think I want to go back and do a "challenging" version now? The only people I knew that went were the achievement whores and the non stop farming of Violet Hold for Mark of the War prisoner. You think I, my guildmates, or 99% of the WoW population at large wants to run impossible ass heroics with the random mouthbreathing idiots I find in the /lfg tool for the low low price of 2 frost emblems?

Well essentially he is saying that if he became a casual player (and thus would mostly only have time to run heroics) he would rather quit Wow. I personally think this is a problem.
I also find his second comment interesting: that if heroics were extremely hard he wouldn’t run them because he wouldn’t have time (and 2 frost badges wouldn’t be worth it). Although this might make it a little harder to find a group, I believe this actually exactly what Wow players should want.

This is in fact _not_ what people want. If I quit raiding I would have all the time in the world to run heroics. I still wouldn't run your hypothetical juiced up hard mode for 2 lousy frost badges. An actual gear upgrade? Possibly, but not with a pug. But for 2 badges?

They would be a ghost town.

Here's what I am actually saying: You are asking for something the rest of us don't want. I don't want a vanilla only server. I don't want to rerun Molten Core. I don't want to spend 5 mins. coordinating CC for every stupid trash pull, tbh I don't really want any trash at all, and I damn sure have no interest whatsoever in wiping to an upgunned Old Kingdom boss a full year after there was a point to it for no gear upgrades.

I also have no interest in lev 80 Wailing Caverns that still drop lev 20 loot. You know what else I don't have an interest in? Lev 80 Wailing Caverns that drop lev 80 loot. I've seen Wailing Caverns. I've seen Auchindon. I've seen Nexus. I don't really want to be dragged back there, to either an original or a "harder" version.

Actually, that's a bold faced lie. Put decent loot on them and I will slaughter lev 80 Wailing Caverns til the cows come home. I'd rather you didn't, though.

[Gron]

It's 2 frost badges. You know what that's worth to me? About 15 - 20 mins of my time.

Do you know what would happen if you made the damn Nexus scale with gear, or have lethal trash packs or CC requirements or take a leet group an hour to go through and destroy pugs or whatever other dumbass ideas I've seen to make them harder?

I'd quit running them and take a little longer to get my t10 set.

You know what would happen if some heroics could scale / offer something worthwile? I'd run more than 1 heroic per day, and enjoy the game. Once all 5-mans are flat and not interesting, I don't understand why you feel fine with them. I have to admit, sometimes I like doing easy things. But what I remember WOW is when I did 5-man BC heroics, which got adrenaline going, which felt great defeating. Back in BC there were easy heroics (like Mech or Slave Pens) and some harder ones, like Shattered Halls. WTLK has one type of 5-man heroics, the easy type. And they hand out badges on par of the latest/best raid tier.

And jumping back to raids... there are more people raiding the "easy" content than ever - but nowhere near to big numbers like Blizzard expected. There is still a huge gap of players not raiding - even if they create flame leviathan and other VOA type bosses.

[k0102]

a few good pointers have been noted here..

- people still dont clear raids due to time commitment: very true.. i tend to do small raids like EoE, OS, VoA, because they can be done in under an hour (or even half an hour ;D) I used to be in a "hot Kharazan" guild, where we started at 21:00 , raiding til 00:30 to clear Kara.. Thats just too long. I like hard and difficult encounters, not just spending time killing some bosses where you already know you gunna pwn/faceroll the boss anyway..

- Blizzard stated they never intended to make gearitem levels this high, so thats why heroics are too easy. I like the old TBC days where you first could get gear with proffessions, go raid kara, go do (difficult) heroics, and than start raiding big bosses like Gruul and Maggy.. it was pretty statisfying when killing those!

For cataclysm, i hope they just get rid for the farming part, make all encounters hard, stop using tokens/emblems/badges all the time, but focus more on proffessions and boss-drops.. oh my.. maybe we might even get exited over the loot that drops!

[Terminated]

Even in BC a Sunwell guild could still screw up a MT or SH pull a wipe in a heroic.
Here heroics have been nerfed to the point all boss abilities are not only too forgiving, but can even be TOTALLY ignored.
They are just trash mobs with a few more hitpoints. New players don't even have to learn what a 'strategy' is, just dps down, get heals, get loot.

Ever done the mage in the Occulus recently ? DPS stand in the ice, don't even try hide when the mage TP, eat the arcane blast, and survive.
Same thing for the blue draconide on the red platform, who cares about moving, about the ability, about the ray from the flying dragon, just stand and dps.
Ingvar ? Tank eats all shocks, no need to move or avoid the bladestorm
Loken ? All stay close, dps, don't move, don't need watch for the Nova, kill him, loot.
Anub (Naxx) ? Stand where you are, ignore the add, ignore the swarm, dps, kill, loot.
Faerlina ? Stand where you are, ignore the add, ignore the enrage, dps, kill, loot.

and the list goes on for 90% of the bosses in the game, from heroics, Naxx and early Ulduar.

New 80 does that for a while, gears up with 232/245/264 stuff, wipes in HoR 3 times, gives up, leaves thinking the tank/heal/dps (remove the role he plays) sucks.

It's too easy for today's casuals, but will not be for long with the new generation of players.

[PaladinBash]

I sure as hell didn't clear 40m Naxx. It was painful as hell and I genuinely hated having to show up to raids and put my genitals in the blender for the sake of my guild. Those were the days when I really loved raiding...and now I look back I cannot fathom why. It was hard, unbearably so at points...and while nowadays people that have never played such content would dismiss it as "you were all bad". If you made it to 40m Naxx, you were not bad. Not amazing really...because we didn't clear it before I quit WoW to move overseas (I don't think they did after I left either) but honestly, the mechanics of organising a raid (consumables, gearing up 40 people that weren't bad/ninjas/AFK etc) was far more of a challenge than actually doing the fights themselves in many cases. I am not the least bit sad to see those problems resolved.

I think the issue is that people think of themselves as a bar and measure all others according to it. To put it simply;

If you play more than me, you're a no lifer that lives with his mother and is a virgin. If you play less than me, you are a scrub that doesn't deserve to see content that elite people that know everything do. If you beat me in a duel/battleground/arena, you are a talentless noob that plays a faceroll class/spec/whatever. If I beat you in PVP, you are a keyboard turning clicker that must observe as many teabaggings and /y LOL emotes as I can do before you release.

In other words, what everyone else thinks is clearly wrong and what everyone else does is bad in some way or another. Remember this and stand proudly in fires because it's a healer's job to heal you through it.

[Thalur]

I partly agree with the OP: the "casual", every-day content (meaning heroics, but also like daily quests and leveling an alt) is much too easy and boring.
However, I disagree that ICC is not fine for casuals. Actually, being a casual player, I really find it to my liking. Never before have there been so many 25 man pugs that are successful right at the start of a new raid tier.

So what do I want from a 25 man pug in ICC? 1) I want the chance to get something down - otherwise it's frustrating. 2) I want challenge - that's the fun part of the game after all. 3) I also want to see limits - if a pug can easily clear ICC-25, there would be no more challenges left in the game for a casual.

Current ICC-25 has all that. The first boss is easy, the next 2 bosses are fun, and the 4th is challenging. Roughly 50% of the pugs can get Saurfang down, the other half cannot (in my experience). I find that a good number.
The other wings are currently un-puggable. That is alright - if I see parses of hardcore raiders, and every dps does about twice as much dps as in the common pug, then the pug should not be able to down everything. Nerfs to the bosses will come, zone-wide buffs will come, and average gear will get better, so they will be puggable in time.

Blizzard has done everything right with ICC-25 for casuals.

[Demorz]

All you Vanilla raiders QQ about 'the good old days', but truly (I was one, and I'm CERTAINLY not whining about losing it)... if Blizz pushed all of you into a doom-portal back to a 'good old day' server together, where you waited 4 hours to find 40 people, had to waste 6+ hours of your time to clear raids, freeze your balls with icecubes to numb the pain of people going AFK, and struggled to do almost anything with fresh tards to fill your mass of 40, you'd all have a new forum titled, "We miss the cream cheese of Wotlk! QQ!"

Things were not better. Things were utterly sh!t - memories of Vanilla only 'seem' better than they actually were at the time. If you got to play it all again, you'd reaize how sh!t it actually was in the 'good old days' when you couldn't even take a druid along to heal your dungeons because they couldn't rez...

Be appreciative of the things we get. Not the crap we had to deal with when we were naive... unappreciative people -_-

I vote to push you all into the Doom Portal back to Vanilla together...

[jontaxe]

I think the issue is that people think of themselves as a bar and measure all others according to it. To put it simply;

If you play more than me, you're a no lifer that lives with his mother and is a virgin. If you play less than me, you are a scrub that doesn't deserve to see content that elite people that know everything do.

Hah. Preach on, brother.

“Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?” - the late great George Carlin

I second the doom portal idea. Ideally you come out the other side as the OOC rezzer. Now _that_ was fucking awesome.

I actually sort of like the current thing they are playing with of new harder heroics that drop gear in line with older raids, ie Frozen Halls. You can leave the old instances alone and faceroll them for your two badges, if you raid you won't care, if you don't or are trying to gear up an alt you can do Frozen Halls.

Blizzard always like to roll out little tests of ideas they have to see how they work. Expect to see more of Frozen Halls type things if it winds up being as popular as I suspect it might be.

[Lerathu]

"2b, threat wasn't always a problem in BC. Ever run with a pally tank back then?"
Quoted from some chap on first page :P

Just agreeing threat was never an issue, Pallies threat has always been rediculous

[lagmoose]

What "other difficulty mode" to add?
Now there are normal and heroic modes. Both are on the same difficulty level. Why call the easy mode "heroic" in the first place?

I want to say it was either in beta for BC or LK that it was datamined there was a 3rd difficulty level to switch for 5 man dungeons. It was like Normal, Heroic, Epic (I believe). Obviously it isn't active, but could have been some feature they intended to do or are toying with implementing soon. (Cataclysm?)

[Shiggity]

Playerbase doing BC heroics: "wtf blizz this shit is too hard"

Playerbase doing WotLK heroics: "wtf blizz this shit is too easy"

Devs: "wtf do you people want from us?!"

Happy medium please