Revitalize not so good, why do so many druids take it?

[Sarcasm]

EDIT: My main point with this wasn't to attack Revitalize and druids who take it, it was more an argument between me and a druid, the druid claiming that Nature's Splendor was shit and that Revitalize was one of the best talents in his arsenal, and myself claiming otherwise. This thread was a working space for my numbers and I invited opinions (or implied that I did) after I was done working. I apologize to any druids I may offend.

Got in to an argument with a druid I pugged a raid with just now, I asked why he'd taken Revitalize when it was a fairly poor gain for talents spent, and he slung me the typical "baddie", "scrub", "your guild sucks" etc. So I decided to calculate the absolute maximum gains Revitalize can give in a raid, plus the realistic gains it can give.

---Max gain---
-90 ticks (30 Rejuv, 60 Wild Growth) per minute per person.
-15% chance to trigger a gain per tick.
-13.5 triggers per minute.
The numbers above assume the druid has glyphed Rejuvenation with maximum haste + Wild Growth on all players at ALL times throughout the fight (which is fairly unrealistic in itself). You will see the following gains per person:

Energy: 13.5*8 = 108 energy per minute.
Rage: 13.5*4 = 54 rage per minute.
Runic Power: 13.5*16 = 216 RP per minute.
Mana (assuming 35k paladin or disc priest pool): 13.5*350 = 4,725 mana per minute or 78.75 MP5.
Mana (assuming 25k caster DPS or other healer pool): 13.5*250 = 3,375 mana per minute or 56.25 MP5.

So two free Mutilates every minute for rogues, two free Whirlwinds every minute for fury warriors, 5 free Death Coils per minute for DKs etc. But remember this is the absolute maximum potential gain (assuming you constantly have the two HoTs rolling on you as fast as possible) and you will not see gains anywhere near this in reality.


---Realistic gain---
EDIT: Made a huge mistake. When I originally wrote this part of the math I took only the effective healing ticks in to account, and not the over healing ticks. Over healing ticks can still proc Revitalize. Since I'm already satisfied with my conclusion and have moved on, I won't bother adding them in to the math, but someone else might want to: There were 830 EH ticks (as listed below). In addition to that there were 650 OH ticks. So the predicted resource gains below could be roughly doubled.
---
Now I happen to have the healing log of my dear druid friend from the twins fight, where he was spamming his heart out to top the meter (and made sure everyone knew he was doing so). His top two heals were:
Rejuvenation - 253 counts
Wild Growth - 577 counts
Total - 830 counts
Total estimated triggers - 124.5

The fight was rougly five minutes in length (since the DPS let a Twin's Pact go off), so we can assume ~24.9 triggers per minute, or let's say 1 trigger per minute on everyone in the raid (since that makes the next calculation easier).

The raid was composed of 25 people in total:
3 energy users
3 RP users
2 rage users
15 mana users (~25k pool)
2 mana users (~35k pool)

So assuming 1 trigger per minute per person, the total gains per minute raidwide were:
3*8 = 24 energy (less than half a Mutilate shared between three rogues)
3*12 = 36 RP (a Death Coil shared between three DKs)
2*4 = 8 rage (half a Heroic Strike shared between two warriors)
15*250 = 3,750 mana or 62.5 MP5 (4.2 MP5 per person)
2*350 = 700 mana or 11.6 MP5 (5.8 MP5 per person)


This is what you are giving the raid by taking 3/3 Revitalize. I understand that one druid on one fight is hardly a worthy sample size, but I can't see the numbers going much higher than that, especially since this was a fight where the druid was spamming like crazy. Revitalize, to me, seems like a complete waste of 3 talent points.

[Nephod]

I don't have any math to underline my statement, but when I spec'd into 3/3 Revitalize I got huge feedback from guildies. Mana, energy and rune-users alike: "Did you spec into Revitalize?".

So I guess it's worth it. Seeing as ppl notice a clear difference. We raid 10man only atm, btw.

Just my $.02.

[Belajas]

Atm being my offspec, Im specced 2/3 revitalize myself, but the reason I put points into it instead of example Natural Perfection wasnt because I considered it some hopefully great dps increaser but rather a "patch" for dpser buff maintenance.

You know those situations example on feral druid or rogue when some of your buff or debuff is dropping off at the same time with something else and you need to make the "think-fast" decision which to refresh first... This might patch up the situation and sometimes helps refreshing both without worrying on either one dropping off because you need to wait that extra few secs for energy to regen...

And anyways, even with lowend decent gear, mana shouldnt that big of an issue that you couldnt throw some revi-WGs around... or at least im not playing for Recount efficient heals meters, I play to get the encounter done.

[Slonah]

My guild's main tree healer speced into it for like a week, and it was a noticeable increase for the DPSer's (our DK really noticed it), but in the end I think he sacrificed some haste to get it and to him it wasn't worth it. He just respeced back to his old build last night. It was a short experiment, and fun for the DPSer's who were gaining rage/RP but the healing suffered.

[Nassam]

look at logs and at "energy gain / rage gain and so on" revitalize ~= tiger fury for feral (generally a little under TF)...

[Beetlejuice]

It's the runic power and energy that counts. Especially energy users are usually resource capped, So they will never complain about having more of their resource to burn. It's not an overwhelming gain, but it is a gain no one else can supply. And since you can't do much important stuff with those talent points anyway why not just spec it. Not a must have talent but a nice talent point dump.

Actually the biggest problem i have with that talent is that it is so random. You just can't calculate with a 15% proc chance. It might not proc a single time on a full rejuve duration. I would have prefered a 100% (or at least 50%) proc chance and accordingly lowered proc value.

[Puri]

The question is: What would you spec instead? And would your raid benefit more from this/those other talent(s)?

[Phage0070]

Revitalize is terrible. If people want it, they don't know what they are talking about.

[Djomka]

And like Living Seed is any better than Revitalize, right?
For me, it's not how good Revitalize is, it's rather "What's better than it?" and since our T10 set bonuses directly point to WG and Reju, why not squeeze whatever we can out of them?

[Pokemaster]

Revitalize is great talent, take it, there are no better to take instead.

[cheesypeas]

I think you fail at basic maths.

Rejuvenation - 253 counts
Wild Growth - 577 counts
Total - 830 counts
Total estimated triggers - 124.5

Would mean he cast Rejuvenation 253 / 6 = 42.1666 times.

Also I can assume you haven't done professor putricde. Try him with and without revitalise on the abomination (was more apparent before the nerf).

[Degrador]

The question is: What would you spec instead? And would your raid benefit more from this/those other talent(s)?

This is the key thing. Here is the 'standard' 11/0/60 spec that most people recommend atm: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0VG0zZZf0fuduxiuiIsVo

Where else would you put the 3 points from Revitalize?

[Deleted]

Revitalize is crap don't fret your head about it ... Given there's isn't a lot of talents that you can replace with it to give you much gain living seed is pretty hand especially if you like to dabble in all sorts of healing. I never have and never will spec into revitalize just due to the fact that it is absolutly poo ;

I'm using - http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-ta...ldara&gn=Drama

at the moment and not one person ever has complained about how I heal infact I get nothing but compliments

[ECZO]

Revitalize is good and I take it because I'm not there to top meters but to kill bosses (great news: more dps means more leet purplez for you!), didn't read your math since people on EJ are usually more competent than some random joe posting stuff.

On professor putricide it's very useful.

[xGLxAnubis]

Wait... 90 ticks per minute? Let's relook this....

Rejuve ticks every 3 seconds. With capped/near capped haste, you should be able to manage EASILY 15 rejuves rolling AT ALL TIMES. That's 15 Ticks every 3 seconds, or averaging 5 ticks a second. That's 300 ticks a minute. WG hits 6 People, and ticks every second. Thats 360 ticks a minute. So, I total 660 ticks every minute.


At OP, WTF are you doing? Rolling 2 rejuves and 2 Wild Growths then going AFK for 30 seconds at a time? And how did no one else pickup this terrible math? At 15% proc rate, you can expect 99 procs a minute. lets make it easy for calculation's sake and say your entire raid is mana users at 25k Mana:
(Obviously not correct, since you'd have Rogues, Ferals, DPS warrs, DKs. But for Simplicity we'll say casters and ultimately it should balance overall anyhow since rogues/DKs are going to benefit MORE from the energy gains then casters anyhow. Simply putting it into terms for a Resto Druid comparison).

That means every minute you're giving the raid an equivalent of 24750 mana. That's 2062 Mp5 or 83 Mp5 per person in raid. So basically you're giving your raid an extra Blessing of Wisdom, that works for non mana users as well. How ISN'T this good?

[ECZO]

And how did no one else pickup this terrible math?

because we couldn't be bothered with it

[Sarcasm]

I think you fail at basic maths.

Rejuvenation - 253 counts
Wild Growth - 577 counts
Total - 830 counts
Total estimated triggers - 124.5

Would mean he cast Rejuvenation 253 / 6 = 42.1666 times.

How could I possibly fail at basic maths when I was copy-pasting what Recount told me?

This druid wasn't specced in to Nature's Splendor, which was what prompted me to ask him about his talents in the first place (why he'd taken Revitalize over Nature's Splendor), so really he cast Rejuv 50.6 times, or once every ~10 seconds.

It's the runic power and energy that counts. Especially energy users are usually resource capped, So they will never complain about having more of their resource to burn.

The 3 rogues in the raid were granted 120, 48 and 48 energy over the 5 minute period. One rogue was lucky enough to get two free Mutilates out of it while the others didn't even get that. I play a rogue for my main and two 'free' Muts over a 5 minute period is hardly noticeable (even a non-rogue could tell you that though).

[Sarcasm]

Wait... 90 ticks per minute? Let's relook this....

I think you're confused about what I was doing. The 'maximum gain' section is per person. The 'realistic gain' section is based on the raidwide numbers I pulled from the twins encounter.

[torny]

Wait... 90 ticks per minute? Let's relook this....

Rejuve ticks every 3 seconds. With capped/near capped haste, you should be able to manage EASILY 15 rejuves rolling AT ALL TIMES. That's 15 Ticks every 3 seconds, or averaging 5 ticks a second. That's 300 ticks a minute. WG hits 6 People, and ticks every second. Thats 360 ticks a minute. So, I total 660 ticks every minute.


At OP, WTF are you doing? Rolling 2 rejuves and 2 Wild Growths then going AFK for 30 seconds at a time? And how did no one else pickup this terrible math? At 15% proc rate, you can expect 99 procs a minute. lets make it easy for calculation's sake and say your entire raid is mana users at 25k Mana:
(Obviously not correct, since you'd have Rogues, Ferals, DPS warrs, DKs. But for Simplicity we'll say casters and ultimately it should balance overall anyhow since rogues/DKs are going to benefit MORE from the energy gains then casters anyhow. Simply putting it into terms for a Resto Druid comparison).

That means every minute you're giving the raid an equivalent of 24750 mana. That's 2062 Mp5 or 83 Mp5 per person in raid. So basically you're giving your raid an extra Blessing of Wisdom, that works for non mana users as well. How ISN'T this good?

no...

btw i don't think rejuv is placed on 25 people at the same time.

[Deleted]

From our last Lanathel kill Revitalize from 2 resto druids restored a total of :

720 energy (2 energy users)
1056 runic power (2 dps death knights)
104536 mana (to 18 mana users)

That's over a 5:13 kill, so just the mana gain was worth 1669 mp/5. The biggest mana gained was our holy paladin with 11151 mana over the fight. Now Blood Queen is pretty much the optimal fight for revitalize since it's all rejuvenation and wild growth healing, but those are still huge gains for 3 talent points.

Energy gains are a direct damage increase to both Rogues and Feral druids. Runic power gains are a direct damage increase to Unholy Death Knights and DK tanks of all specs. Frost and Blood dps Death Knights don't benefit from extra runic power as much due to their GCD heavy rotation.