the pseudo-facerollers

[Darthwader]

hi all,

with all the nerf and boost on 4 tanking classes, isn't only me or the called "facerollers"(DKs) on beginning now are the most difficult class to tank???

i guess with the stupid pally tanking rotation, the 2 button druid and the new 2 button warrior single target rotation we have a lot to do comparing to them....

[KhameleonN]

single target tanking in one spot is facerolling no matter what class you're playing

[MushroomBomb]

single target tanking in one spot is facerolling no matter what class you're playing

This. There are differences in difficulty when it comes to taking aggro on multiple adds, there are differences in how each class has to use their cooldowns. I don't necessarely think that DKs are any more complicated than any other class, though you might perhaps have more buttons to press.

[Deralte]

single target tanking in one spot is facerolling no matter what class you're playing

'cept feral druid.
edit: cat

[rabbimojo]

'cept feral druid.
edit: cat

Yeah, that cat tanking's really getting popular.
What?

[klauskleber]

as a bear i have to use 6 buttons for my single target tanking rotation:
mangle
maul
demo roar
lacerate
swipe
faerie fire

[rabbimojo]

Anyways: DK tanking has never been any more faceroll than any other, and typically has been a good bit harder to do really well. Skill requirements for tanking, overall, was previously something like:
Warrior/DK > Paladin > Bear (depending on DK spec)

Now, Warriors are approaching a 2-button rotation, but do have a lot of tools. So, it's something more like:
DK > Warrior/Paladin/Bear, again depending on DK spec (and it's only a slight difference)

The thing making DKs fundamentally a step ahead for difficulty is having to plan around resource availability for significant things rather than simple TPS. e.g., icebound fortitude, AMS, VB/UA/BS. This is easy in a lot of fights, to the point it's not worth considering a confounding factor.

However, there have been fights where it was not a trivial aspect of the class, and it is something they fundamentally have had to worry about that other tanks have not.
Resource management difficulty is ordered like this:
DK > Warrior/Bear > Paladin

If you want to throw heroic/trash tanking in here, mob positioning becomes a part of tank skill, and that difficulty is probably Bear > War > DK/Paladin, just due to the lack of tools. Warriors I place slightly ahead of DK/Pal because you actually really need to get cleave positioned properly to hold AOE threat with eager DPS.

And I guess worth throwing in here is the final factor, utility management. Here I'd probably say:
Warrior > Paladin/DK > Bear
Though it's been a few patches since I tanked on my paladin, and various talents have been shifted around enough that I'm not 100% on their placement.

DKs have always been called faceroll, whether they were or not. For some parts of this expansion, DK tanking -and- DPS has been wonderfully nuanced, to the point I'd call it one of the deepest classes. If you don't know why, then you either don't play a DK, or you're a bad DK.

Oh, and for the record: Cat isn't hard to DPS with either. I think the feral community has just latched onto that to maintain some dignity, with bear being relatively simple. Yes, I know GC half-heartedly agreed, and I don't care. :P

[klauskleber]

Oh, and for the record: Cat isn't hard to DPS with either. I think the feral community has just latched onto that to maintain some dignity, with bear being relatively simple. Yes, I know GC half-heartedly agreed, and I don't care. :P

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1...srotationa.jpg

[iamaugur]

as a bear i have to use 6 buttons for my single target tanking rotation:
mangle
maul
demo roar
lacerate
swipe
faerie fire

Why do you have a button for each?

On my druid I have 9 buttons counting cooldowns.
1. My single target rotation -> Mangle FFF Swipe swipe lacerate repeat. Maul being used after each attack. Using lacerate if < 5 stacks rather than swipe with a timer to reset to mangle if the button isn't clicked in 3 GCDs
*2. Growl
*3. Feral Charge
*4. Lacerate
5. Barkskin
**6. My I want to live macro. It blows all my CDs including the herbalism one.
7. My AOE macro -> swipe swipe swipe with maul always on.
**8. Bash
**9. Berserk

So in short, I have 2 'rotational' buttons, 2 cooldowns, and 2 agro generators, and 3 situational abilities that are fight dependant.

* Situtational (Only need lacerate at the beginning of the fight due to #1
** Rarely used

Druid tanking is very easy, but still not as easy as a 3 button macro'd paladin.

To the OPs questions. DKs have more to keep track of in terms of resources. This coupled with the warrior like CDs make them the hardest tanking class to master IMO.

Summary: In terms of difficulty, DK > warr >> druid > paladin. However, the real difficulty in tanking is know the fight, knowing the positions, and having the reflexes to grab adds before they instagib a DPS/Healer. These are all class independent.

[Neichus]

I tend to agree with iamaugur. I've played a Warrior tank for years, and I tried DK tanking and it took a lot of concentration to really get right. I ultimately ended up ditching the class since I was frustrated by their weakness to surprise; that is, DKs do great when they can see what's coming and plan around it but surprise pulls were just hard to compensate for due to the nature of runes. But I definitely walked away feeling that being a really good DK tank under a variety of situations is the hardest tanking out there all around.

[Simbert]

Yeah, that cat tanking's really getting popular.
What?

I know a guy who likes to tank heroics in cat form. But only if he knows the healer.

[Nangz]

Oh, and for the record: Cat isn't hard to DPS with either. I think the feral community has just latched onto that to maintain some dignity, with bear being relatively simple. Yes, I know GC half-heartedly agreed, and I don't care. :P

Part one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nuc5MhpekM

part two
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb5jM...eature=related

just look for the rotation priority part in part one and tell me it isn't hard.

[Valquirie]

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1...srotationa.jpg

Is that a serious, real flowchart, or one created for humor? I have never played a Druid, and complaints from players are...well, it's specific: one player might find it hard, while another finds it extremely easy. :P

[Simbert]

From my very basic knowledge of druids, it seems real, and the rotation is at least plausible. Though some of the decisions in this flowchart do not necessarily need to be performed at the point they are at, especially the choice of finishers is very early in the process, while the whole process afterwards is kind of the same until you reach the finisher, which is different, making the whole thing look much more complicated than it actually is. It comes down to a system of priorities.

I believe the main problem ferals have with their rotation is not even the complexity, but that it is so long that any switching of targets becomes a pain in the ass.

[Valquirie]

. . .I believe the main problem ferals have with their rotation is not even the complexity, but that it is so long that any switching of targets becomes a pain in the ass.

No AoE's? :'( ...I thought every class had one! :-o

[Nangz]

From my very basic knowledge of druids, it seems real, and the rotation is at least plausible. Though some of the decisions in this flowchart do not necessarily need to be performed at the point they are at, especially the choice of finishers is very early in the process, while the whole process afterwards is kind of the same until you reach the finisher, which is different, making the whole thing look much more complicated than it actually is. It comes down to a system of priorities.

I believe the main problem ferals have with their rotation is not even the complexity, but that it is so long that any switching of targets becomes a pain in the ass.

Target swaps do suck and yes that picture is real.

The problems is a variety of short lived buffs debuffs all overlayed onto combo point and energy system. The only real difference between ferals and a affliction warlock is that the affliction warlock can reapply a dot in one gcd. For us ferals it can take up to 4 globals and ~7 secs.

Another HUGE problem is the fact that ferals MUST be behind the target for competative dps. (try kologarn and tell me feral isn't a pain in the ass sometimes) As outlined in the vid links i posted it can be hard due to raid postioning for ferals to get behind which will result in much lower dps.

Ask any rogue they will probably say that compared to a class that can mash keys and chain arcane blasts or a tight rotation together there is lots of downtime in an energy rotation due to the mechanic of regeneration. This is the reason for it being hard to refersh dots.


I simply can't say all about feral dps in a post so just watch the vid. Watch it 2 times, 3 or 4 works too. Hey i still watch it and i've been learnign new things since it came out. Even since early wotlk i've been learning new things.

No AoE's? :'( ...I thought every class had one! :-o

Tell that to a quick target swap likes blood princes. that fight is BS for ferals.

[Mr_Bojangles]

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1...srotationa.jpg

That flow chart is inefficient. To start, the same segment is repeated 3 times in different locations. You could create the whole thing with 1 loop and 1 sequential if/else segment.

[Nangz]

That flow chart is inefficient. To start, the same segment is repeated 3 times in different locations. You could create the whole thing with 1 loop and 1 sequential if/else segment.

like this?
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/1687/catdps.jpg

[Kaminío]

Personally I play a feral druid and I do not find it hard at all... I remember being told it was the hardest dps rota ingame and I was like "wtf? Srsly?"

[rabbimojo]

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1...srotationa.jpg

I'm well aware of the picture. I still stand by what I stated.

Part one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nuc5MhpekM

part two
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb5jM...eature=related

just look for the rotation priority part in part one and tell me it isn't hard.

I'm well aware of how cat plays and the list it goes through. I just really don't feel that it's hard. It has an extra button/talent or two on its priority list but it's still just a list. I raided pre-easymode affi comfortably, I raided feral comfortably, and I've raided as a lot of other specs comfortably. I think feral difficulty is overhyped.

I'm not saying feral is easy, because there are definitely far simpler specs to play as, but I don't find anything in playing feral that would make me think of it as some sort of badge of honor.