Tank Vs. Tank

[TagTeam]

Semi-Wall inc

So my guild was running ICC10 man, we haven't progressed far for various reasons and one of the solutions was for myself to play a Warrior tank, after gearing etc we went to ICC10 and got to Festergut

Our raid composition was pretty balanced, but the important part is I was tanking with a Death Knight, we are very similarly geared, to the point where there is about 400 HP difference and 300 Armour difference, He has 5% more avoidance (dodge + parry) and I have about 18% block on top of that

My armory:
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...denar&cn=Paige

His armory:
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...enar&cn=Spitty

The point of this thread is that when I was starting on Festergut i'd begin to get mauled on his second inhale, on the first 2 attempts I was Dying at about 7 or 8 gastric bloats

On the third attempt I died just as the 9th hit and was about to be taunted off of me, then we decided to swap

With the Death Knight tanking his health was far more stable during the initial phase, and we were able to rotate enough cooldowns through the third inhale and subsequent pungent blight, then managed to kill before it became a problem again.

We always run two healers, and in this raid they were a Holy Paladin and Priest (I believe Holy)
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...r&cn=Joanofarc
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...kullcand%C3%BF

We had a talk afterwards and were trying to work out why, the Death Knight was blood and we guess the Will of the Necropolis was helping him alot, and after some more investigation I suppose his self healing was doing more than my block, but the difference was huge, my health was all over the place and his was really very stable, to the point where I don't actually think the Will of the Necropolis was being used.

So, just wondering, is anyone able to provide any insight as to the huge difference between the two of us?

[Pokemaster]

Get third healer, resto druid or a shaman.

[Revitalize]

Its possible to two heal, but it seems like a third healer may be needed for you.

[Powell]

DKs have it much easier with cooldown rotation because they are on a much lower CD, especially vampiric blood, wich makes a huge difference. combined with his self healing increase and the healers heals increased, it adds up to.


OT:
i do seem to have a problem with his spec though.
Spell deflection is to RNG based to make a difference.
also, 3/3 scent of blood seems like a waste, i only have 1/3 and i manage to have it up enough to keep my RP high enough to use rune strike every time.

My spec

i know its personal preference, and you can switch abomination's might for something else if you have an enh shaman.
Mark of Blood isnt a life saver against hard hitting bosses, but it can make a difference in your CD rotation, not only for yourself, but for the raid aswell.
and i think Imp Icy Touch is a must, ofcourse you have thunderclap, but your not always going to tank attack the same thing.

ofcourse i dont want to sound like the smartass, but its just my 2cents.

also dont spec for anger management, its a wasted talent point, and puncture.
get 1h spec, 10% dmg difference on all attacks is major, both for overall dmg as threat gen

3d edit: Dont gem for Parry, it has a larger DR then dodge.

[Teippi]

you dont have [One-handed weapon specialization] on ur spec...?

[TagTeam]

We did it with two healers, and have done it with other tanks before the raid comp changed, previously though we did it with a priest and druid

Once the Death Knight was tanking the first phase we did it, but we were stumped as to why he had a much easier time in that phase =/

p.s I don't think he used vamp. blood, as far as i'm aware he used the DK version of Shield Block, where I had ofc been using Shield Block on my attempts

you dont have [One-handed weapon specialization] on ur spec...?

No I went for Deep Wounds, found it more useful the left over points I put into 'Armored to the Teeth' as I figured this was a greater threat increase

[Taun]

Semi-Wall inc

So my guild was running ICC10 man, we haven't progressed far for various reasons and one of the solutions was for myself to play a Warrior tank, after gearing etc we went to ICC10 and got to Festergut

Our raid composition was pretty balanced, but the important part is I was tanking with a Death Knight, we are very similarly geared, to the point where there is about 400 HP difference and 300 Armour difference, He has 5% more avoidance (dodge + parry) and I have about 18% block on top of that

My armory:
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...denar&cn=Paige

His armory:
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...enar&cn=Spitty

The point of this thread is that when I was starting on Festergut i'd begin to get mauled on his second inhale, on the first 2 attempts I was Dying at about 7 or 8 gastric bloats

On the third attempt I died just as the 9th hit and was about to be taunted off of me, then we decided to swap

With the Death Knight tanking his health was far more stable during the initial phase, and we were able to rotate enough cooldowns through the third inhale and subsequent pungent blight, then managed to kill before it became a problem again.

We always run two healers, and in this raid they were a Holy Paladin and Priest (I believe Holy)
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...r&cn=Joanofarc
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...kullcand%C3%BF

We had a talk afterwards and were trying to work out why, the Death Knight was blood and we guess the Will of the Necropolis was helping him alot, and after some more investigation I suppose his self healing was doing more than my block, but the difference was huge, my health was all over the place and his was really very stable, to the point where I don't actually think the Will of the Necropolis was being used.

So, just wondering, is anyone able to provide any insight as to the huge difference between the two of us?

That dk is actually better geared then you first of all.

The other thing i'm curious about is your gemming. Your gemming parry which never ever should be gemmed. Either you go dodge or you go agi (exp if really needed). Then i see you gemming pure defence, don't! if you wanna filla yellow socket either use a defence stam gem or a hit stam gem depending on your hitrating.

The only thing i can think about with the problems to your health is that you aren't using cds accordingly.

I have a paladintank (yeye palainds = op) which is much lesser geared then you. We ran with a holydin and a druid and i was never below 30%.

I would say the healer got better at healing the dks attempts or cd prolems.

Edit: Get onehand specialization, take away the point from anger management and from puncture and focused rage. You should by no means be ragestarved on any encounter in icc. the crit in the fury tree is quite a good talent for your tps instead. I would also suggest that you get the helm and the shoulder offpieces

<a href="http://eu.wowarmory.com/talent-calc....30113321">Link This specc</a>

[Elessa]

May I suggest that you get a third healer? Prefebly a resto druid.
If you have trouble with tank damage have your priest go disc.

[klaps_05]

paladin with t9 4pc = win. and if you bring a holy priest + druid its a cakewalk

[TagTeam]

That dk is actually better geared then you first of all.

The other thing i'm curious about is your gemming. Your gemming parry which never ever should be gemmed. Either you go dodge or you go agi (exp if really needed). Then i see you gemming pure defence, don't! if you wanna filla yellow socket either use a defence stam gem or a hit stam gem depending on your hitrating.

The only thing i can think about with the problems to your health is that you aren't using cds accordingly.

I have a paladintank (yeye palainds = op) which is much lesser geared then you. We ran with a holydin and a druid and i was never below 30%.

I would say the healer got better at healing the dks attempts or cd prolems.

Yeee I had someone else comment about parry, thanks I didn't think it was such a problem though as i'm still around 20% parry (guessing its a problem regardless heh)

The defense was from when I was under defense cap, relatively new char

The other tank is better geared your right, but where our stats are so similar I wasn't sure this was the problem =/ highly doubt it at least, same armour, same health and same avoidance (in my favour) what other stats are there?

p.s thanks for the fast replies
Powell - not smart ass, really helpful actually ty
Taun - That's a good point, but I can't take out focused rage, not enough points left in Prot at that point One-Hand spec really that good?

[Taun]

Just realised your also very low on expertise. It might be that way your parryhasting the boss and therefore actually take more dmg.

[Taun]

Yeee I had someone else comment about parry, thanks I didn't think it was such a problem though as i'm still around 20% parry (guessing its a problem regardless heh)

The defense was from when I was under defense cap, relatively new char

The other tank is better geared your right, but where our stats are so similar I wasn't sure this was the problem =/ highly doubt it at least, same armour, same health and same avoidance (in my favour) what other stats are there?

p.s thanks for the fast replies
Powell - not smart ass, really helpful actually ty
Taun - That's a good point, but I can't take out focused rage, not enough points left in Prot at that point One-Hand spec really that good?

The onehand spec is threat which focused rage and the other is too. The thing is when your tanking thoose kind of bosses rage isn't an issue therefore why lower the cost of abilitys when you got no limitation anyway? Therefore it's better to get a damage upping to increase threat.

It's mostly pointers though, nothing that will make or break the fight. What i believe is happening is parryhasting where he parrying you increases his attackspeed even more.

[Loklar]

May I suggest that you get a third healer? Prefebly a resto druid.
If you have trouble with tank damage have your priest go disc.

That's terrible advice.

You're suggesting a tank get better by doing nothing and change the team she goes with?

Heck, if the tank still has trouble staying alive you can bring 4 healers, amirite?

[TagTeam]

I thought parry hasting only occured on like, three fights in WotLK, Gormok and two others I can't remember, Is festergut one of these?

That may well be it, because one of the attempts the healers did say I seemed to drop from 100% to dead in one hit (hit + parry hit would be like less than a second)

But to happen twice and not to him? (his expertise is about the same as mine)

Bad luck on my part haha

[blizzy]

You're suggesting a tank get better by doing nothing and change the team she goes with?

Heck, if the tank still has trouble staying alive you can bring 4 healers, amirite?

This. Festergut 10-man can be two-healed quite easily.

[Sierro]

Parry haste is only on Deathwhisper and Sindragosa.

http://pwnwear.com/2010/02/11/parry-...crown-citadel/

[Deleted]

Ok OP - Here we go.

Spec
Iron Will is pointless as a tank - sure you get stunned sometimes but you are geared enough to sit through it.
Anger management is also crap, even DPS don't take it. 1rP3 - Thats 20 rage every minute, you see?
1/3 In Puncture is a waste of a point - You never need that extra rage, and Focus Rage reduces it by 3 already

And things that you don't have.
One Handed Spec - It increases ALL OF YOU DAMAGE by 10%. So you are throwing away 10% damage/threat.

Here is a Spec I suggest using - You will find yourself doing more threat, so you have more room to think about survivability.
Threat Spec - Focus Rage + Imp Revenge - This is the build I run with, I find the block is very lack luster from Shield Spec in raids as you don't block for a lot and the threat generated from Shield Spec is random compared to a solid 3 rage reduction in focus rage.

Gear
I would Suggest getting the onyxia head (25m) as its higher item level and has no block on it. - Also don't gem parry (Gem dodge if you must)
Change your Shoulder enchant to 30 stam 15 resil - (You need all the HP you can get for Fester
Try and get the frost badge cloak, its very good.
Change your chest to 3x30 stam - You only need 1 red to fill the Meta, and you are wasting stats using your gems like that (Never use a Tear)
Change the hit gem in your bracers to 30 stam (you need it more than the hit)
I would suggest getting the stamina enchant for gloves (but if you like that one, keep it) - Also same as before, 30 stam instead of hit.
The T9 legs are the worst out of the set, I would suggest getting the ToC25 legs (Its easy to get as you only need 2 tanks, so make the group with a druid OT win/win) and same with the gem, no parry - 30 stam instead.
You should never use 20 defense gem (boots) instead use Enduring (defense + stam)
Rings are good just get more rep.
1 of your trinkets is nice, the other is quite low item level, try and get the ToC25.


Boss + Cooldowns
The fight will look like this: (percentages are rough estimate)

Tank 1 Pull - Boss 0 Debuff (33% Tank damage - 66% raid damage)

Tank 1 - 1 Debuff (50% Tank damage - 50% Raid damage)

Tank 1 - 2 Debuffs (75% tank damage - 25% Raid damage) - Now, This is when Tank 1 uses Shield wall

Tank 2 (TAUNT) - 3 Debuffs (100% Tank damage - 0% Raid damage) - Tank 2 - shield wall (The tank should taunt just before the second cast, that way he doesn't take any damage (Because the boss is casting) and the healers can switch with ease (because of no tank damage) Shield wall just before the cast is over.

Tank 2 - 0 Debuff (33% Tank, 66% Raid) - Now its just rinse and repeat

Tank 2 - 1 Debuff (50% Tank, 50% Raid)

Tank 2 - 2 Debuffs (75% Tank, 25% Raid) - Tank 1 should almost have shield wall ready, as soon as shield wall is read get tank 1 to taunt and pop shield wall. When shield wall is up, use any other cooldowns in a row.

Tank 1 - 3 Debuffs (100% Tank, 0% Raid) - The boss should die around this point, just have the healers spam the tank (nothing else to heal) and bring him down.

And ofcorse, shield wall just means damage reduction ability, change depending on class ^^

Let me know if there is anything else I can help with
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...batol&cn=virgz
my armoury

[TagTeam]

Ok OP - Here we go.

Spec
Iron Will is pointless as a tank - sure you get stunned sometimes but you are geared enough to sit through it.
Anger management is also crap, even DPS don't take it. 1rP3 - Thats 20 rage every minute, you see?
1/3 In Puncture is a waste of a point - You never need that extra rage, and Focus Rage reduces it by 3 already

And things that you don't have.
One Handed Spec - It increases ALL OF YOU DAMAGE by 10%. So you are throwing away 10% damage/threat.

Here is a Spec I suggest using - You will find yourself doing more threat, so you have more room to think about survivability.
Threat Spec - Focus Rage + Imp Revenge - This is the build I run with, I find the block is very lack luster from Shield Spec in raids as you don't block for a lot and the threat generated from Shield Spec is random compared to a solid 3 rage reduction in focus rage.

Gear
I would Suggest getting the onyxia head (25m) as its higher item level and has no block on it. - Also don't gem parry (Gem dodge if you must)
Change your Shoulder enchant to 30 stam 15 resil - (You need all the HP you can get for Fester
Try and get the frost badge cloak, its very good.
Change your chest to 3x30 stam - You only need 1 red to fill the Meta, and you are wasting stats using your gems like that (Never use a Tear)
Change the hit gem in your bracers to 30 stam (you need it more than the hit)
I would suggest getting the stamina enchant for gloves (but if you like that one, keep it) - Also same as before, 30 stam instead of hit.
The T9 legs are the worst out of the set, I would suggest getting the ToC25 legs (Its easy to get as you only need 2 tanks, so make the group with a druid OT win/win) and same with the gem, no parry - 30 stam instead.
You should never use 20 defense gem (boots) instead use Enduring (defense + stam)
Rings are good just get more rep.
1 of your trinkets is nice, the other is quite low item level, try and get the ToC25.


Boss + Cooldowns
The fight will look like this: (percentages are rough estimate)

Tank 1 Pull - Boss 0 Debuff (33% Tank damage - 66% raid damage)

Tank 1 - 1 Debuff (50% Tank damage - 50% Raid damage)

Tank 1 - 2 Debuffs (75% tank damage - 25% Raid damage) - Now, This is when Tank 1 uses Shield wall

Tank 2 (TAUNT) - 3 Debuffs (100% Tank damage - 0% Raid damage) - Tank 2 - shield wall (The tank should taunt just before the second cast, that way he doesn't take any damage (Because the boss is casting) and the healers can switch with ease (because of no tank damage) Shield wall just before the cast is over.

Tank 2 - 0 Debuff (33% Tank, 66% Raid) - Now its just rinse and repeat

Tank 2 - 1 Debuff (50% Tank, 50% Raid)

Tank 2 - 2 Debuffs (75% Tank, 25% Raid) - Tank 1 should almost have shield wall ready, as soon as shield wall is read get tank 1 to taunt and pop shield wall. When shield wall is up, use any other cooldowns in a row.

Tank 1 - 3 Debuffs (100% Tank, 0% Raid) - The boss should die around this point, just have the healers spam the tank (nothing else to heal) and bring him down.

And ofcorse, shield wall just means damage reduction ability, change depending on class ^^

Let me know if there is anything else I can help with
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...batol&cn=virgz
my armoury

Thanks clampy, alot of good advise there it's quite funny actually, as I posted this and people were saying about my spec I found myself thinking... My god why the *$@# do I still have that >.<

Your defo right about when to use cooldowns, but we were planning to get through the first phase (tank 1 to 9 gastric bloat) with only minor CD (ie shield block) so as to cover our ass if we had to endure a second 3 stack on the boss (90% dmg inc)

I still don't quite understand though, how under the same conditions the DK survived easier than I did =/

[Deleted]

Thanks clampy, alot of good advise there it's quite funny actually, as I posted this and people were saying about my spec I found myself thinking... My god why the *$@# do I still have that >.<

Your defo right about when to use cooldowns, but we were planning to get through the first phase (tank 1 to 9 gastric bloat) with only minor CD (ie shield block) so as to cover our ass if we had to endure a second 3 stack on the boss (90% dmg inc)

I still don't quite understand though, how under the same conditions the DK survived easier than I did =/

I don't know, you have to talk to him and see when hes using cooldowns, Maybe he has more armour (Hes not in frost p on armoury)

I think a lot of the fight is getting your DPS to nuke as hard as possible so the cooldowns increase in strength (If the fight goes on too long, then you don't have any more cooldowns to use).

Personally I've never had a problem, try rotating cooldowns better I think that will help you more than anything else (Using heroism when the healing gets intense in the first P3 or something so you make the healers job easier).

sorry i couldn't help more

[Taun]

Agree with all that clappo is saying except about the trinket. Ofc the toc 25 is an upgrade but even though it's ilvl 200 the black heart is a great trinket. And yes the wrath head is better but the 75 badge one is a sure card and it won't take long to get since your tanking, 2 sec queues ftw. Get the conquest belt etc too. The trinkets is the least of your worries imo.

Other then that good luck at fester and keep us updated