Last Resort Quit - Has WoW Changed So Much For the Worst?

[Izenhart]

I've been raiding up to Naxx in Vanilla and cleared SWP in Tbc (yeah, yeah, M'uru postnerf) and all I can say is that WoW raiding only improved over these 5 years.

40men raiding in Naxx or AQ were so ridicolously plain and boring I still can't believe I actually did spend time on them.

The game, and that's a fact, was RAW. Was POOR.

How many abilities the hunter did use in BWL? Aimed, Serpent and Multi shot, plus Arcane shot POSTbuff. FOUR.
With no rotation, no "theorycrafting" at all, basically non existant enchants, or very poor if even. No procs whatsover untill BWL trinkets, ridicolous specs.

Healers had to ROTATE and stand still to regen mana.


I've noticed about LR quittingg and I can't really understand their point.

[jb226]

Some people are entirely too concerned with what top guilds are doing.

Were you ever in school, taking a test, and were happy to hear the teacher say they were going to curve it because you felt like you bombed? Then you get your test back only to find out that two or three of the "smart kids" did so damn well and wrecked the curve so much that it may as well have not been curved at all?

That's what some people seem to want Blizzard to do. They want them to cater content difficulty such that the top guilds in the world stumble on it. There are any number of "ZOMG LICH KING DOWN FIRST DAY LULZ" threads here and elsewhere, and are oblivious to the fact that making content hard for the world's best guilds makes it impossible for the vast majority of others. That would be stupid even if it weren't bad business. Blizzard knows this, as they've basically said as much in various ways plenty of times before.

Limited attempts are somewhat clunky, but they're simply a recognition that even the not-quite-top-but-still-damn-good guilds are so far above the average guilds that the only way to slow them down yet not make it impossible for another huge chunk of people is to make the learning curve itself limiting. So, for that matter, is the plan with ICC to start dropping buffs on the zone as they go, which is probably a better mechanics all in all.

The reality is, whatever your particular views on how hard the content is or should be, you simply come to conflicting viewpoints and somebody is going to be upset. Hardcore guilds are upset with easy content and silly gating mechanisms, casual guilds wouldn't get to experience the content without it being dumbed down. You can't please everybody. For better or worse, Blizzard has decided to lean more toward the latter audience. They try (hard modes, gating, etc) to throw the hardcore types a bone, but for various reasons they tend not to be well-received.

If that ruins the game for them, then the proper response is to move on. It may be sad after years invested in the game, but that's just how it is. No big deal either way.

[Claym]

imo they should have something to let new 80s get some gear but there should still be progression (i.e. guilds need to do Naxx, for gear to do Uld, etc...) the badges system should be setup better rather than just giving you the nearly top end gear.

The problem is this model doesn't work. It's unsustainable on virtually every level. If you aren't in one of the first guilds to clear content, you may miss the chance to ever enter raiding because guilds don't want to go back and redo old stuff. If the answer is, "then form a guild to start at the beginning" you're absolutely delusional and willfully ignorant about the degree of work involved in something like that. People should be able to participate in content without having to take on the burden of being a GM.

I remember in Vanilla when we'd have raiders quit in AQ, it was a nightmare to replace them, there were almost no unguilded people who were sufficiently geared to enter AQ, meaning we'd need to take at least a week out of our normal raids to gear up recruits (who usually would just quit after a week of MC and BWL because they got lolepikz). If you have a guild of people who will NEVER quit and that same 10 or 25 people are always raiding together then it works fine. The problem is, not everyone is so lucky; it's entirely unrealistic to expect that.

It also entirely ignores the idea that some people simply don't want to raid, just like some people simply don't want to arena for PvP. Their characters should NOT stagnate because they want to play the game that is fun for them. That's how people end up quitting, they see their character never improving so they stop. This is why badge gear scaling was introduced (also so guilds on the latest raid actually had a shot in hell at recruiting new people when needed without having to lear 3 other raids).

Assume you have 4 raid instances in the tiered category. Assume the RNG loves you and in 25 man you only need to run each raid for 2 months so everyone has every item they need. You'd need to lear Naxx, Ulduar, ToC before you could enter ICC meaning you'd take 6 months to get there. This might sound great for the minority of people who could accomplish it, because they would feel accomplished. It would be miserable for anyone wanting to break into it because if most guilds are working on ToC still, and almost none are working Naxx they have no options. Even if they DID find an option, Cataclysm might be out by the time they're geared enough to see ICC.

This model was tired, and it was terrible for raiding guilds as well as people who had a casual interesting in raiding. Everyone benefits from the way it is now.

[Memory]

Some people are entirely too concerned with what top guilds are doing.

[...]

That's what some people seem to want Blizzard to do. They want them to cater content difficulty such that the top guilds in the world stumble on it. There are any number of "ZOMG LICH KING DOWN FIRST DAY LULZ" threads here and elsewhere, and are oblivious to the fact that making content hard for the world's best guilds makes it impossible for the vast majority of others. That would be stupid even if it weren't bad business. Blizzard knows this, as they've basically said as much in various ways plenty of times before.

False. I just wish they wouldn't have to nerf Oculus heroic four or five times. I just wish they wouldn't have ever nerfed every heroic with patch 2.1 (in the BC). How is it related to the very top guilds? Seriously, we're not talking about a game that got more casual friendly as you wanna intend it. It's DUMB friendly.

[Neb-X]

As it has been said, you probably watch their videos before attempting the bosses. Enough said.

This is what's wrong with the game. People complain about how's it's so easy, but spend so much time watching the videos, playing the PTRs, using UI mods that tell you exactly what to do and when to do it. As far as I see it it's almost like cheating. They don't even attempt to find out how to do things on their own, it's just straight to the walkthrough.

As far as Last Resort quitting? Who cares? Like it's been said, it doesn't change the game for anyone else. They quit because they've been playing the same game for five years, probably looked at themselves in the mirror and realised how much of their lives they've wasted.

It's not WoW that's changed for the worst, it's the players.

[Memory]

This is what's wrong with the game. People complain about how's it's so easy, but spend so much time watching the videos, playing the PTRs

I agree on this part. But people are too much concerned about omg, we're gonna kill him first, we're gonna kill him first, to act any different (yeah, server first).
But it's not just that ofc, hehe. Game IS different, now, not only people.

[seam]

DnT quit in BC.

This must mean wow was dying in BC!

[Bowen]

The problem is this model doesn't work. It's unsustainable on virtually every level. If you aren't in one of the first guilds to clear content, you may miss the chance to ever enter raiding because guilds don't want to go back and redo old stuff

Hardly true, I cleared nax in first week on my main, when ulduar was release I put an alt into another casual raiding guild and did nax and then some ulduar on that. There are always new guilds but now that you can be toc and ICC ready from 5mans people and guilds don't make the effort to run nax or ulduar because there is no need, there should be a need !

This is what's wrong with the game. People complain about how's it's so easy, but spend so much time watching the videos, playing the PTRs

Not true to a whole extent, we cleared nax again the first week without any ptr play or doing it in vanilla, we one shot some ulduar bosses, one shot all TOC bosses, one shot the first four ICC bosses, we did this without the full picture, and no ptr experience. With real content this shouldn't happen.

[Memory]

...and this is what many people fail to understand...maybe because they didn't experience MC..and BWL..and everything after that in the old system like some of us did.

One year of MC with exactly ONE shaman tier headpiece? 8 consecutive Ragnaros kills with 8 warlock pants (we had 6 locks) and at the same time out first 10 Onyxia kills with zero warlock T2 head? The entire warlock class in an emo rage discussion because when the robe finally dropped it would have made one guy the best geared lock on the server and another completed his first setbonus?

I never ever ever want something like the Molten Bore times again, with 4-8 hour raid days on some weekends....

Well, that's not the point, would you ever bother to reply to someone who cries about how fun it was to raid Molten Core? Vanilla WoW had it's strengths, but they aren't Molten Core raiding model. Yet I'd take the Burning Crusade over any other WotLK raiding model.
Not saying BC raiding was perfect, tho, just better than this (excepting the release dates of content patches, that was totally wrong in the BC, Blizzard itself said it - but that's just an external aspect).

[Skip]

They've outgrown the game to a point where they're so good that they can't see hard content anymore unless the dev's make it hard for them (think original firefighter/yogg0 difficulty), which would exclude a fair number of even good guilds from ever seeing the content.

They should have went that way though -- there's always the autonerf if you're not good enough in ICC.

Well here is the thing - they can make the fights really hard i.e. top tier level guilds hard at first and then nerf them little by little. It won't be the first time and nobody will complain. I am not saying make all of them as hard as 4h or yogg 0, but as long as it takes a guild like Ensidia 3-4 days of constant attempts to kill a boss - it is hard enough.

After the top 20 or so have done the fight - just nerf it and the middle of the pack can do it also.

As for why people make a big deal out of LR quitting? Well it has been said in the other topic about it also: Top tier guilds are the ones that help the community most. They really test stuff on PTR and beta, they do all the spreadsheets and videos of encounters and basically keep the game going. I really can't see the game being as popular if it weren't for guilds like LR. Of course only LR quitting is not a big deal, but if a lot of the other guilds follow it will be.

[Memory]

After the top 20 or so have done the fight - just nerf it and the middle of the pack can do it also.

No way, top 20 is just a bunch of people, I don't either wanna be within the top 20, yet I wanna kill not nerfed bosses :|

[Cpttrips]

Im five years in and having as much fun as ever...

i for one dont miss the long grinds followed by more grinding with a touch of grinding on top.

if i only have two hours to kill i can actually jump in and knock out a raid now.

or in that same two hours i can lvl an alt twice.

[Skip]

No way, top 20 is just a bunch of people, I don't either wanna be within the top 20, yet I wanna kill not nerfed bosses :|

You are still doing nerfed content, but instead it is nerfed before release.

How would giving challenging content to top tier guilds affect you in any way? You will not see it any way, the version you would kill will be the same as the one you kill now. Your experience in the game doesn't change one bit.

This is the same attitude that people had when the PvP gear looked the same as PvE, when they released badge loot at the same level as BT loot etc. I just don't get why would people care about changes that do not affect them. It is silly attitude and i never liked it.

[Memory]

How would giving challenging content to top tier guilds affect you in any way? You will not see it any way, the version you would kill will be the same as the one you kill now. Your experience in the game doesn't change one bit.

Hm? What do I kill, when and why? I don't know what you're talking about
I just cba to deal with easy bosses only because Blizzard nerfed 'em for the noobs; especially if it means just one week after the first kills. And I know the difference between beating original content and beating nerfed content. So it does affect me. I can't understand what you're trying to mean.

[Skip]

Hm? What do I kill, when and why? I don't know what you're talking about
I just cba to deal with easy bosses only because Blizzard nerfed 'em for the noobs; especially if it means just one week after the first kills. And I know the difference between beating original content and beating nerfed content. So it does affect me. I can't understand what you're trying to mean.

What i mean is this:

There are basically 3 types of guilds:

Top tier guilds - Ensidia, Paragon, Stars, Premonition etc. everyone knows them.

Middle of the pack - these are mostly semi-hardcore guilds raiding 3-5 times a week and having decent players. Depending on the boss they are a couple of weeks to a month behind the top

Bottom of the pack - basically very casual and new guilds that really only raid normal modes and don't really care about HMs.

Currently the bosses are tuned like this: Normal modes for the bottom of the pack and a bit of challenge for the middle and Hard mode for the middle of the pack and in order for Hard modes to be challenging for the top guilds they have limited attempts.

My point is that at first the hard mode versions of the bosses should be tuned for the top tier guilds so that they could have their challenge and then tuned down to the level of those in the middle of the pack (basically to the level they are currently released at).

Yes you will know that you are doing nerfed content, but you should also know that there is hardly any way you could kill a boss tuned for the top tier guilds. As an example of those bosses you can take: Magtheridon ( the version that Nihilum killed, not sure if it was 1 or 2), M'uru v1 (only 3-4 guilds killed it) and yogg 0. These were bosses tuned for the best of the best.

[sulfuric]

First off, this thread looks familiar

So I was perusing the interwebz (totally jacked up on caffeine, as I had to work overnight shift at work), when I came across the news blurb, "Last Resort Quits WoW". This is a guild who has been around for roughly five years, and was well known for quite a few feats.

The main reason they decided to quit was that WoW had changed for the worse, and they simply were not having fun anymore. Now, they aren't exactly the first guild to quit WoW (and don't be surprised if Ensidia doesn't follow), but it did set out a huge debate as to how the game has somehow become 'bland' and 'easy'. It got me thinking, all 'elite' or 'casual catering' terms aside, why are guilds coming to this conclusion? Btw, this is meant be simply a 'fun discussion', one of which I realize has probably been mentioned many times over, but I'm mostly looking for veteran player / guild or raid leader opinions.

Sitting in normal mode content for weeks waiting for heroics to even unlock because of bizarre gating strategy, this is bland easy and far from fun all wrapped into one. Almost complete removal of things to do on a main character alone while waiting at these artifical walls. Very few reps to grind and the reps that are introduced are so quickly over that they occupy a weeks time at most, destruction of one PvP bracket makes 3v3 or 5v5 the only real options for high end arena, BG's are chock fun of people who do not want to be there or have no desire to win or improve themselves. So people generally log out after raiding due to a lack of other options, or they create an alt and do all the things they have already done on their main, again.

As a player of five years myself, and remember that this is simply an opinion, I simply cannot understand where people are coming up with this?
First, the difficulty factor. Though I could have been considered 'hardcore' in my prime (I was part of a guild who was Alliance firsts on our server), I am lucky if I get to raid 3 days a week now. I am raid leader of a 'casual' guild now, and we seem to be stuttering on Rotface (only about half of our guild are long time raiders). Heck, on our server at least, an Alliance guild just got Yogg + 0 a couple of weeks ago. Not a single guild has downed normal LK. Are we a cutting edge server? Not really, but it at least goes to show that not every encounter is a walk in and win scenario, much like ICC is now. Hardmodes almost cleared? Ya, by THE cutting edge guilds of WoW. I imagine that many servers won't see HM LK for quite some time.

You are comparing the difficulty of the game to the best players in the world, to the difficulty you feel as a casual guild still on rotface? I think the explosion of the MMO-Champ front page the past few days tells you the kind of "challenges" they are finding in ICC heroic, and it gets nothing but easier after the first kill. This entire thread is (or at least it seems to be) dissecting why a guild like LR would feel that the game is bland easy and boring and have chosen to leave because of it.

Secondly, the bland factor. This expansion has spiced up the game in a way that made me become interested again. In TBC, I had my main lvled to 70 in about 1.5 months, and my alt got to 70 just two months before WotLK was released. In WotLK, I have lvled four characters to 80, and am working on my fifth, possibly sixth. With the LFG system, multiple lvling zones, heirloom gear, and 10 - 25 raiding (I much prefer 10s to 25s), I find myself playing the game much more for fun than I ever used to, and I expect Cataclysm to only heighten this.

The main reason I can figure from most opinions I have read, is that the 'grind' factor has been removed. I'd gather that many players who started WoW many years ago migrated from Everquest (I, myself, am one of these), and any ex EQ player will remember that you won't accomplish anything without a super amount of time and effort. One of my ex guild members would get very nostalgic about having to raid 60 hours a week in order to actually down certain bosses, and the sheer amount of time it took to clear the Planes was staggering. This is what WoW was based off of originally, and this is the thing that most players miss. I also think these players are leaving WoW to find a game that involves the huge time expenditure, and unfortunately, I don't think one exists anymore (please correct me if I'm wrong on this, btw). It's simply an outdated game model.

Wow was a nice happy medium in its first inception and people related to that, it's good to have to spend time and effort to obtain things and just like your father will tell you. Having to work for your first car will make you appreciate it so much more, that timeless mindset applies to everything even video games. People want challenges, and the better you become the harder and larger you want the challenges to be.

So - raid leaders, guild leaders, long time raiders - what do you think? Try to set aside the snide remarks, and let us have a nice discussion.

Personally everyone knows how I feel and few people at least few people on this specific website agree with me. I feel that the game has been stripped of its original intent and its new direction is one of instant gratification. I liked having factions to grind, (and I use the word grind on purpose here) in my spare time outside of raiding or any activity that required group play. People like having a single player option at least something to do while outside a group, the WoW community is very grating and prolonged exposure to them can make you want to quit (I personally have seen the term "QQ moar, plox, kthnx, k, amg, pew pew, lazers" or any of the other nerd rant terms) in itself.

[credible]

So I was perusing the interwebz (totally jacked up on caffeine, as I had to work overnight shift at work), when I came across the news blurb, "Last Resort Quits WoW". This is a guild who has been around for roughly five years, and was well known for quite a few feats.

The main reason they decided to quit was that WoW had changed for the worse, and they simply were not having fun anymore. Now, they aren't exactly the first guild to quit WoW (and don't be surprised if Ensidia doesn't follow), but it did set out a huge debate as to how the game has somehow become 'bland' and 'easy'. It got me thinking, all 'elite' or 'casual catering' terms aside, why are guilds coming to this conclusion? Btw, this is meant be simply a 'fun discussion', one of which I realize has probably been mentioned many times over, but I'm mostly looking for veteran player / guild or raid leader opinions.

As a player of five years myself, and remember that this is simply an opinion, I simply cannot understand where people are coming up with this?

First, the difficulty factor. Though I could have been considered 'hardcore' in my prime (I was part of a guild who was Alliance firsts on our server), I am lucky if I get to raid 3 days a week now. I am raid leader of a 'casual' guild now, and we seem to be stuttering on Rotface (only about half of our guild are long time raiders). Heck, on our server at least, an Alliance guild just got Yogg + 0 a couple of weeks ago. Not a single guild has downed normal LK. Are we a cutting edge server? Not really, but it at least goes to show that not every encounter is a walk in and win scenario, much like ICC is now. Hardmodes almost cleared? Ya, by THE cutting edge guilds of WoW. I imagine that many servers won't see HM LK for quite some time.

Secondly, the bland factor. This expansion has spiced up the game in a way that made me become interested again. In TBC, I had my main lvled to 70 in about 1.5 months, and my alt got to 70 just two months before WotLK was released. In WotLK, I have lvled four characters to 80, and am working on my fifth, possibly sixth. With the LFG system, multiple lvling zones, heirloom gear, and 10 - 25 raiding (I much prefer 10s to 25s), I find myself playing the game much more for fun than I ever used to, and I expect Cataclysm to only heighten this.

The main reason I can figure from most opinions I have read, is that the 'grind' factor has been removed. I'd gather that many players who started WoW many years ago migrated from Everquest (I, myself, am one of these), and any ex EQ player will remember that you won't accomplish anything without a super amount of time and effort. One of my ex guild members would get very nostalgic about having to raid 60 hours a week in order to actually down certain bosses, and the sheer amount of time it took to clear the Planes was staggering. This is what WoW was based off of originally, and this is the thing that most players miss. I also think these players are leaving WoW to find a game that involves the huge time expenditure, and unfortunately, I don't think one exists anymore (please correct me if I'm wrong on this, btw). It's simply an outdated game model.

So - raid leaders, guild leaders, long time raiders - what do you think? Try to set aside the snide remarks, and let us have a nice discussion.

You hit the nail on the head my good friend....I have not read all the responses,but I read your post.

My feeling and we just got fester 25 man,lol,so we are at the same point as you,I love the way the game the way it is.

I remember in Diablo,the amount of characters I had was ridiculous,lol.

I have no desire for that in wow,never have for some reason,I have the 1 main and...get this...I get to spend time with my wife and kids also....WOW.

Thanx for the post,there are a lot of people like us in this game.

[Deleted]

Let them quit, who cares, really? In those Guilds are people same as us playing WoW ... They are nothing more. Who cares if they are bored and dunno what else ...

[Thetruth1400]

For the players that quit, yes, WoW has changed to the point it isn't worth them playing anymore. That's their call and while it might be Blizzard's fault, for so many others, Blizzard did the right thing.

For my personal opinion, which is worth no more or less then anyone elses, I think Blizzard is on the decline and I as well canceled my account. To me, the whole idea of "hard modes" is BS. It isn't new content. It's almost insulting to hear Blizzard say, "But there's still new content, you haven't done hard modes yet." I know I haven't, they're exactly the same as the normal content, just a little more challenging. The fights aren't new fights, the experience isn't new, it's just more difficult. It's like handing someone a rubix cube, having them complete it, then handing it to them and telling them to do it one handed. It's the same, just harder. It isn't more fun, it's the same thing. Do some people find it a bigger accomplishment? Sure. But then again, there are also people that realize that it's just the same stuff handed to them in a different way, and that doesn't sit too well with them.

[Skip]

Let them quit, who cares, really? In those Guilds are people same as us playing WoW ... They are nothing more. Who cares if they are bored and dunno what else ...

You are joking right?

I have been in both middle of the pack guilds and in a top 10 guild. I can tell you the difference in skill level is big big big. They are just better at this game than the rest of the people and that is it.

The information regarding gear choices, spell cycles and boss strategies that 99% of the raiding guilds use also comes from them. So yeah no big deal. But think about it next time you watch a video, read a boss strategy or go to EJ to check what item to choose.