Last Resort Quit - Has WoW Changed So Much For the Worst?

[anyaka21]

we also have to remember that part of the reason things have changed and changed in many ways for the easier or the casual player is because of boredom.

Seriously, how long can someone play hardcore? Are the main raiders of Paragon and Enisidia/Nihilim/SWGamer (or whatever) the same as they were? just that one example of e/n/s should give you all the indication that we need. People are going to come and go from games. People are going to play until the game is no longer fun.

The advantage that Blizzard and Warcraft have created is that it isn't too hard to get in the game. I new player can come into the game and really in about a month be 80, and in about another month be fully raid ready and that's in ICC. And that also doesn't mean that the raid will suck because they have a 2month old rookie either. Time in game, while helpful, does not mean skill.

The problem lots of games have is that they die through attition(sp?) and there isn't a population base not only to replace those people, but those games haven't created an environment where new players can also prosper.

EQ lost people because of the Alt Advance levels. And in their forums people were constantly talking about ways to make the game easier, and while admirable, Sony stayed on course. People left through attrition and there weren't players coming up the ranks to take their place.

By the time Sony realized the problem, WoW came along and had basically stolen 75% of their population.

Blizzard, IMO, has seen this and is taking proactive steps to continue the game. And while it's been helpful for them to have such a great run and with little to no competition, that is also in part to them have adjusted the game over time to make sure they stay on top.

How would a lot of the population today compare Vanilla with Warhammer or Aion? Which would be the better game if things didn't change? If Blizzard didn't make the changes would Warhammer or Aion or something else be the game of choice?

And while many may say that WoW would still remain on top, I find it hard to agree. For example, how many druids would still be playing if they stayed the same as they were in Vanilla as basically innervate bots. Blizzard has changed this game hugely, from bascially making most classes and specs viable for playing, raiding, and to some extent pvp.

[Skip]

Well i don't know anyone in Paragon, but as far as Ensidia go:

Kungen - founder, GM and RL of Nihilum

Mackzter - officer and again one of the first members of Curse

Mek - officer in Curse since Naxx, i think he was RL in another top guild on Stormscale before that.

Tjani - druid CL in Inner Sanctum

Ragebar - officer in Inner Sanctum

Tun - officer in Glodge - one of the top horde guilds on Magtheridon

Basically you get the picture. In the other top guilds that i know it is a similar story.

So to answer your question - a lot of these people have been playing hardcore for 5 years or so. They change guilds and such, but they stay at the top.

[Katakain]

While I understand that the new system for casuals obtaining Frost Badges makes it seem flawed, it really isn't. It would take 15 minutes at worst every day to get an extra two frost badges. And an extra 45 minutes at worst a week for the five frost/five triumph badges. It's not that bad, it really isn't. If you don't want to invest the time for those extra 24 frost badges a week, then don't. Chances are, you raid ICC far more than the casuals who don't.

The system isn't flawed at all. In fact, it's the best thing that's happened for the game, speaking from a purely profit point of view. In the end, that's what it's about for Blizzard. Profits.

This crying and baying about people running heroics to get the "best" gear really confounds me, to be perfectly honest. So someone can spend a couple of nights grinding heroics to build up on their T9 and T9 equivalent gear. If that is their prerogative, let them have it. How does that effect you in any way?

Doesn't personally affect me but c'mon, catering to casuals for profit just floods the game with the wrong type of players and encourages them. Here's an example of the type of player I'm sick of seeing, from a heroic Culling of Stratholme run a month ago:



Retribution paladin using a tank helm, wearing nothing but 5man heroic gear, triumph non set pieces (obviously from running heroics) or PvP gear from emblems and he can't gem any of it properly, he then went on to do horrible DPS while talking crap the whole run.

It affected me in that way and pretty much kills the game for me when it's being played by people like that wearing gear you spent hours raiding for during the previous patch, it's a joke.

[wildcardNS]

Doesn't personally affect me but c'mon, catering to casuals for profit just floods the game with the wrong type of players and encourages them. Here's an example of the type of player I'm sick of seeing, from a heroic Culling of Stratholme run a month ago:



Retribution paladin using a tank helm, wearing nothing but 5man heroic gear, triumph non set pieces (obviously from running heroics) or PvP gear from emblems and he can't gem any of it properly, he then went on to do horrible DPS while talking crap the whole run.

It affected me in that way and pretty much kills the game for me when it's being played by people like that wearing gear you spent hours raiding for during the previous patch, it's a joke.

This is why WoW has become more frustrating. The people represented by this picture are the people Blizzard is designing for now. They're idiots, and they suck at the game, yet Blizzard loves their $15.

Seeing terrible people (not casuals, NOOBS. There IS A DIFFERENCE, PEOPLE.) wearing this gear and acting like they deserve everything you deserve is very frustrating. Its a downright buzzkill and /facepalm in instances where they actually DO get what they don't deserve (t9 from BADGES? COME ON.) and go on not knowing how to use it.

That is whats killing this game. Will it ever completely die? Maybe not next year or the year after it - people will still play. But will they enjoy it? I doubt it.

[Fenixdown]

This is why WoW has become more frustrating. The people represented by this picture are the people Blizzard is designing for now. They're idiots, and they suck at the game, yet Blizzard loves their $15.

Seeing terrible people (not casuals, NOOBS. There IS A DIFFERENCE, PEOPLE.) wearing this gear and acting like they deserve everything you deserve is very frustrating. Its a downright buzzkill and /facepalm in instances where they actually DO get what they don't deserve (t9 from BADGES? COME ON.) and go on not knowing how to use it.

That is whats killing this game. Will it ever completely die? Maybe not next year or the year after it - people will still play. But will they enjoy it? I doubt it.

No, I am very certain that if you took him and nine people like him and put them in front of Marrowgar in ICC10, it would take a miracle of biblical proportions for them to kill it.

I'm guessing that guy hasn't even cleared ToTC10, either. Unless he was carried. That's not what raids are designed for, they actually do require some minor form of intellect to clear. At least beyond Naxx, anyhow.

If a random bad player on a random realm not in your guild and not in your raid group is really what's ruining the game for you, I have to question how you were even able to keep playing this long. Bad players aren't even new, they've existed since vanilla. Heck, they could even get gear in vanilla (39 people + 1 bad still = carried, last I checked). The real difference is it's actually easier to pick them out of the crowd now. If anything, I think that makes the game better. Having an easier ability to tell good players from mediocre ones should give you far fewer headaches, not more of them.

[jai151]

This forum REALLY needs an ignore user option. I'll just have to pointedly skip Sulfuric's posts from now on, will make this a much better place.

Anyway...

This is why WoW has become more frustrating. The people represented by this picture are the people Blizzard is designing for now. They're idiots, and they suck at the game, yet Blizzard loves their $15.

Seeing terrible people (not casuals, NOOBS. There IS A DIFFERENCE, PEOPLE.) wearing this gear and acting like they deserve everything you deserve is very frustrating. Its a downright buzzkill and /facepalm in instances where they actually DO get what they don't deserve (t9 from BADGES? COME ON.) and go on not knowing how to use it.

That is whats killing this game. Will it ever completely die? Maybe not next year or the year after it - people will still play. But will they enjoy it? I doubt it.

The ability for people to get raid gear from heroics is not a factor of casuals/nonraiders/terrible players. It was not put in for casuals/nonraiders/terrible players. It has nothing to do with casuals/nonraiders/terrible players.

The badge loot system was put in for raid guilds, specifically the more hardcore raid guilds who will gear up alts for situational fights or gear up replacements to top tier content. The situation it was explicitly created to correct was one like the main tank either quitting or deciding he didn't want to tank anymore and the guild then having to take a replacement through all multiple previous tiers of content multiple times to get them ready for the top raid, thus setting back progress by a matter of weeks if not months while all raiders who are not the one being geared up get no gain.

[Freedom]

There were plenty of bads running around in Vanilla with epic gear, especially towards the end. My server was beginning to PUG MC when I quit ~5 months before BC and unless you were a critical member like a hunter for tranq shot/ healer on MT/ tank you could easily be carried by the raid. Even then I vividly remember a hunter who absolutely refused to time her Tranq shot correctly on Chromaggus and we still killed him. This way true even in BC as well with reduced raid size - like the priest healer who spammed me to no end while the add tank on the second boss of Hyjal was taking a beating and died right before we killed the boss. It's just now that more of these bads have access to gear and can easily enter the raiding scene with 232 and the odd 245 that creates the problems in PUGs and guild applicants, but as always, trial raids sort the bads from those who know what to do.

If anything bads in epics were more frustrating in Vanilla. Are you really going to kick them and gear up someone who knows how to play by farming MC and BWL for them so they can get in to Naxx40 or AQ40 and not underperform, or are you going to keep the baddie in BWL/AQ40 gear who has been around forever? Shit, I out damaged people in MC/BWL epics in blues and the odd epic in MC/BWL and yes I do have screenshots to prove it.

[Ganimah]

Endgame, nowadays, is easier due to collaboration of strats and Blizzards wanting to make the content available to everyone. Blizz used to dangle that carrot out in front of you to make you try and chase the prize. Now I can level a toon to 80, and have it geared for ICC10 in under 3 weeks. That's ridiculous and not at all in keeping with the mentality from WoW's original developers. I know that Blizz is aiming for long term sustainability, but if there were another game that was actually made with time and care (SWTOR) I would be all over it. Imagine if this current thinking was implemented at the very start of WoW, how quickly this game would have turned into a piece of crap.

[jai151]

Endgame, nowadays, is easier due to collaboration of strats and Blizzards wanting to make the content available to everyone. Blizz used to dangle that carrot out in front of you to make you try and chase the prize. Now I can level a toon to 80, and have it geared for ICC10 in under 3 weeks. That's ridiculous and not at all in keeping with the mentality from WoW's original developers. I know that Blizz is aiming for long term sustainability, but if there were another game that was actually made with time and care (SWTOR) I would be all over it. Imagine if this current thinking was implemented at the very start of WoW, how quickly this game would have turned into a piece of crap.

That thinking was implemented from the outset. WoW at release was several orders of magnitude easier to get into and raid than most if not all other MMOs on the market at the time in terms of raid size (anywhere from 1/2 to 1/3 or less the size of its biggest competitor at the time, Everquest), raid duration, ease of questing, ease of soloing, ease of gearing in and out of raids, everything. What it is now is a factor of what it was. WoW was never the hardcore option, and it has just become more approachable over time.

[Lunataria]

ok, I think I know why a lot of oldies are leaving.

back in vanilla, raiding could be a HUGE chore.
some wrote up a great big wall of text on this, but let me just sumarize the main points that you had to do as a vanilla raiding group that you don't have to worry as much about now:
AS A GUILD:
-hold 40 raiders in a guild
-find times for 40 said raiders to all be online to raid
-Get all 40 raiders to the raid (no summoning stones, 1 shard per summon, and only to outside the instance)
-Grind Resist gear for the guild to even have a CHANCE at some fights (see onyxia scale cloak as a really extreme example)
-raid lower tier content to be able to gear up new recruits (in case 1 of your 40 people drops)

AS A PLAYER:
-Have (in addition to flasks) any elixers that benefitted you, 1 per time you'll be alive (no limit on elixers back then
-have 1 potion to buff your damage, or increase survivability for every 2 minutes of combat.
-Get attuned to raids (not a huge deal, but still)

What I'm trying to get at here, is none of this laborial shit exists anymore. In my opinion for the better.
I don't WANT to spend 2 hours preparing and grinding mats for every hour I'm raiding. that's not fun. But to the old schoolers, that must have been fun, exiting or something to them. Now that that feeling is gone, I think all the vanilla raiders are either going to have to adjust and accept that you can PuG most content (annother thing that never happened in vanilla) or leave. and sadly many people are chosing the later.

[ZzXK]

Why bitch about limited attempts when you use attempts on your alts before your mains?

They made it easy on themselves by doing that...
Didnt even give HLichKing a try...

Sorta glad they left less QQ in the game now

[Offhand]

Lunataria, are you sure your qualified to talk about raids you've hadn't been to until Wrath? Seems kind of silly to me.

[RoseRed]

Well, my quote wasn't directed at you, but at RedRose..and he did exactly use those terms..about "people idolizing" him (back in the days) and the "I love you all" after a bossfight. So..um...I am not making this up, no need to get pissed off at a reply to something that was verbatim in the post of another member.

Yes I love Pixels, I have spent more money on my computer then you probably earn in 3 months. Why? because it's my main hobby, it's been my hobby for years now.
I want to enjoy my hobby to the max, whatever it may be.
What I don't get is, how can one that happens to have the exact same hobby as I do, sit and insult my hobby? You don't see a sky diver go to another sky diver and say "wow, you get an adrenaline rush just for falling..you should quit it, it's better for your health".

Anyway, this game has become for the new generations of gamers. What really matters is that they enjoy it, we had our fun and most of the new generation has killed it for us, in time the next wave of new comers will spoil it for them and so on (assuming the game lasts long enough).
Then again this goes for everything in life

[sulfuric]

Wow, rotten mood, eh?...I think you are only on the Internet to find people that you can get pissy at for whatever reason.

Have fun.....there is unlimited supply.

What is this? Anyone let the cages open? I insulted your hobby? I tell you what..anyone in any hobby who says he does it "because ppl idolize me" will get the same reply as you got. I care that much for your vanity. And I care even less for shitty remarks like "My computer costs more than 3 times of what you make a month". Stop assuming shit, it is ridiculous. What is next in your line of argumenets? "My dad can beat up your dad"?

it has nothing to do with my mood it's just stupid belittling the game you yourself play by referring to it as "pixels".

[blahism]

Endgame, nowadays, is easier due to collaboration of strats and Blizzards wanting to make the content available to everyone. Blizz used to dangle that carrot out in front of you to make you try and chase the prize. Now I can level a toon to 80, and have it geared for ICC10 in under 3 weeks. That's ridiculous and not at all in keeping with the mentality from WoW's original developers. I know that Blizz is aiming for long term sustainability, but if there were another game that was actually made with time and care (SWTOR) I would be all over it. Imagine if this current thinking was implemented at the very start of WoW, how quickly this game would have turned into a piece of crap.

This is only true if you have previous experience and tons of time to play. Someone not experienced with wow isn't gong to lvl up and be raiding that quick.

Sure, if its an alt then true, it can be, but that is sort of the point. You've already paid your dues on your main and can now buy BoA gear to help gear up or at least pay for "twinking" out during leveling to make it a less painful process.

Making the game more accessible is a good thing.

[Katakain]

Anyway...

The ability for people to get raid gear from heroics is not a factor of casuals/nonraiders/terrible players. It was not put in for casuals/nonraiders/terrible players. It has nothing to do with casuals/nonraiders/terrible players.

The badge loot system was put in for raid guilds, specifically the more hardcore raid guilds who will gear up alts for situational fights or gear up replacements to top tier content. The situation it was explicitly created to correct was one like the main tank either quitting or deciding he didn't want to tank anymore and the guild then having to take a replacement through all multiple previous tiers of content multiple times to get them ready for the top raid, thus setting back progress by a matter of weeks if not months while all raiders who are not the one being geared up get no gain.

That's a point but I remember reading blue posts specifically saying it's because they didn't want new players to feel left behind like you could in BC if you didn't have 25 consistent raiders in your guild or you started playing in BC late and had to start from the bottom. Heroics dropping emblems of conquest was alright, let people get 2/5 7.5 and 2/5 8.5 from 3.2 onwards not 5 PIECE T9 and eventually 5 PIECE T10 or 4/5 + any pick of the non set pieces.

Atleast BC had the badge of justice vendors, we didn't get T6 from running heroics did we rofl. Let the noobs farm the 5man crap but why make raiders group with them (unless they run guild only 5 man heroics everyday). My guild just split up because half of the people cbf anymore but we used to get people saying stuff like why do I have to run with groups of retards who can't break 2k dps or tank properly.

Just a few days ago a holy priest I knew was healing and pulling aggro from a prot warrior who obviously had no idea wtf he was doing, I play a prot warrior and it's pretty far from difficult and then there's even easier tanking classes like a prot paladin.

Another thing I hate is Vault of Archavon. Wintergrasp is alright and it needed some PvE incentive so people would participate in it often enough but REALLY simple bosses dropping sanctified T10 and arena gear that usually goes to some idiot; Blizzard are full of stupid ideas but hey, $$$ for them.

[kronpas]

You can only farm Triumphs in Heroics to get T9 gears. If you do no raid, the time to assemble a full T10 set is considerable longer (2x7+5/week against 2x7+10x2+10x2+5x2+5/week), let alone Offset gears.

VoA drops 2 pieces of higest tier pvp/pve gear sounds good, but the loot table is HUGE, and the chance the gear you want actually drop is quite low. My priest ran VoA everyweek, the tier 9 heal hand just dropped last week (not that I want it, but still...).

[jai151]

That's a point but I remember reading blue posts specifically saying it's because they didn't want new players to feel left behind like you could in BC if you didn't have 25 consistent raiders in your guild or you started playing in BC late and had to start from the bottom. Heroics dropping emblems of conquest was alright, let people get 2/5 7.5 and 2/5 8.5 from 3.2 onwards not 5 PIECE T9 and eventually 5 PIECE T10 or 4/5 + any pick of the non set pieces.

Atleast BC had the badge of justice vendors, we didn't get T6 from running heroics did we rofl. Let the noobs farm the 5man crap but why make raiders group with them (unless they run guild only 5 man heroics everyday). My guild just split up because half of the people cbf anymore but we used to get people saying stuff like why do I have to run with groups of retards who can't break 2k dps or tank properly.

Just a few days ago a holy priest I knew was healing and pulling aggro from a prot warrior who obviously had no idea wtf he was doing, I play a prot warrior and it's pretty far from difficult and then there's even easier tanking classes like a prot paladin.

Another thing I hate is Vault of Archavon. Wintergrasp is alright and it needed some PvE incentive so people would participate in it often enough but REALLY simple bosses dropping sanctified T10 and arena gear that usually goes to some idiot; Blizzard are full of stupid ideas but hey, $$$ for them.

That's funny, because I remember a blue post stating it was for the reason I said.

And honestly, letting them get half of the gear they need to be able to get up to speed really doesn't help anything, so 2/5 is a rather lackluster way to do it. But really, do heroics mean that much to you? These prot warriors that don't hold aggro, these dps doing 1k in 245 gear, they don't make it out of heroics. They might get a pug or two, but pugs that take players of that quality won't make it past Marrowgar. Hell, they wouldn't make it past beasts. They might not even make it past Flame Leviathan. You say you're forced to group with them, but you really aren't. You can skip heroics and get your frost badge gear from running frost badge level raids, that's what I do.

As for getting tier from badges, do you forget the old systems so quickly? The amount of tier rot that happened even after they moved to 3 class tokens was ridiculous. And it's no fun to run week after week looking for that one piece and watching the helm rot again and again as the wrong one drops.

Finally, for Vault, I'd love to see all this free tier people are talking about. I've run just about every week since launch, current tier boss only, and have yet to see a single piece of DK tank plate drop. Since the frost boss was launched, we have run every week and seen nothing but worthless glad gear drop. That boss is such loot roulette it's a non-factor.

[Geckomayhem]

As a veteran player myself, the game may have obviously changed, but for me it has changed for the better. Hardcore raiders still exist, and they can really apply themselves with the introduction of heroic raiding. For me, as a casual non-raider, I still find enjoyment in levelling alts and running the 5-mans for upgrades in gear. It's disappointing that some top-end guilds burn themselves out because they lose interest. If challenging raiding was all that their lives revolved around, it's understandable that their interest and dedication to the game fell by the wayside.

As far as world firsts and clearing heroic raids is concerned, it's such a small drop in a veritable ocean of experiences within the game. When Cataclysm comes out, I'm sure a number of players who are currently on hiatus will come and check it out. The game has matured and morphed, and it has evolved into something more epic and consistently entertaining for a wide range of players, from PvP junkies to casual dungeon runners.

It doesn't come as a surprise that a few high-end guilds are going to just quit the game, and I'm sure that there are a number of factors involved. If they feel that they aren't enjoying the content that they restrict themselves to, then a change of scenery -- ie. getting out of the game and focusing on real life things again -- is only healthy.

To all who still do play: take a break every now and then. It's good for your soul.