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  1. #1

    Worshaka and Kelesti:

    When lurking on these priest forums basically every day I tend to find your posts a lot and they are usually pretty enlightening when you're not arguing with each other about semantics or something silly.

    I was wondering if I could have a discussion primarily with you two (this sounds bad, anybody feel free to contribute obviously).
    What I'm looking for is a sorta intelligent discussion on both healing specs atm.
    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-ta...ave&gn=Clarity
    There's my armory, I wouldn't mind looking at both of yours to see differences in talents/gear/gems.

    For holy, am I too worried about spirit items? I made a modest wishlist on wowhead to model what I'd like to make my gear look like in the coming weeks. (I.e no 277 stuff, no full sanctified, etc)
    I made sure every item I found had spirit to try and keep a 1:1 ratio, and I'm still using Spark of Hope.
    http://www.wowhead.com/?profile=20807822
    (Oh, I'm also a bit of a tier whore, don't bash me for picking all the crit ones, I just like the way it looks and can't wait to get my grubby hands on sexy colored 277 priest tier. I also don't have 4pc yet and I'd like to try it myself even though I know nooooooooobody likes it.)

    Ok Holy is my mainspec, so I gear/gem for that, with the exception of a few extra pieces I have with sp/int gems or something, for disc.

    I remember reading a thread a few weeks ago about B&S, I think Kelesti was in favor of the talent, but I don't remember if Worshaka contributed. Also how much haste would you guys push for? In that wishlist, to keep spirit on every item I had to go for more crit items than I normally would've probably...


    Disc is something I think both of you play more than me (I do go disc on every fight it makes sense of course. Saurfang yadda yadda. I've only done some LK10 attempts and disc basically makes infest a nonfactor). Which brings me to my next point... In some thread I was reading last night I think, Kelesti was bashing shield mashers...
    I've got a few questions... On fights where spambubbling is neccesary (25m), there will hopefully be 2 disc priests and we'll divide up the work so that we have free globals. On "normal" fights, I usually keep all the melee bubbled anyway because I can't honestly see what else I'd do. Bubbling melee on Gormok in ToGC25 was godly.. Bubbling melee on deathwhisper p2 is also nice to prevent possible DnD+frostbolt volley/spirit gibs.
    Otherwise my only issue with disc is that it seems to me that it has zero scaling power. As long as you're keeping BT up for a relatively high portion of the fight you get haste capped at like 500 haste, it's stupid. Since so much of your throughput comes from bubbles, the value of crit is diminished as well. I won't deny that crit is nice for tank healing to improve DA uptime, but I wouldn't stack haste OR crit as disc. All you can really go for is spellpower, and int... I can get into serious mana problems as disc if I'm really pushing it.

    But enough wall of text. If people (especially you two in particular) could share their views I'd appreciate it. (Feel free to also state what content you run.) My guild has raiders who don't really have powerful enough computers to make us very competitive in 25mans (several people do 25mans with like 3 fps). So *kinda* focus more on 10m. We're at: 11/12 ICC10 and 10/12 ICC25.

  2. #2

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Disc is something I think both of you play more than me (I do go disc on every fight it makes sense of course. Saurfang yadda yadda. I've only done some LK10 attempts and disc basically makes infest a nonfactor). Which brings me to my next point... In some thread I was reading last night I think, Kelesti was bashing shield mashers...
    Honestly, too wordy. I dont mind reading walloftext, but at least it should be informative. And your thread name suggests nothing (I only clicked on it out of boredom).

  3. #3

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Spellpower+Int has proven to be the best gems you can get. In general int on gear grants you way more pr. IP ( Itempoint) Than spirit would ever get even near. So, gem Haste if your regen is fine, gem int if its not.

    Being at where you are in progression, you should be able to either request the math on EJ, or figure it out yourself. Posting a wall of text asking a question that either comes down to preference, or can be concluded directly from math makes me want to butcher you.

  4. #4

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Topic should be more like "Plz rate my priest Worshaka and Kelesti, armorylink here"

    For your healing issues, please check out sticky posts in priest section (where you happened to post this) and also EJ healingpriest discussion http://elitistjerks.com/f77/t83203-w...thas_downfall/

    "any type of person converting RL money into WoW is retarded by default." - Choppers
    "That makes all of WoW players retards, since we all pay our monthly fee." - Kenjji

  5. #5

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Firstly... i'm primarily shadow, but I do have a Holy OS and I do heal on occasion... however since ICC i've healed a lot less than I did during T9 and T8.

    I'm not actually a disc expert, I played disc as my OS way back at the start of LK when it was snubbed. I found that disc was going to be rather viable and also knew how powerful it was when you first hit 80 in blues. When 3.1 came around and disc got a couple of slight buffs the community went nuts but I was bored of the spec by then and changed to holy which I enjoy far more than disc for some well documented, if not accepted reasons. Primarily I found disc to have no mana management, extremely simple and too much of a narrow niche. Overall I just found it boring and still do.

    I'll start with Holy, your spec is almost identical to mine, except I have taken 1 point out of Divine Fury for 3/3 Blessed Resilience and the 2 points in Body & Soul I have in EH. All i'd say is take 1 point out of Divine Fury and max BR, throughput is the key and that 1% healing is going to output a lot more healing than 0.1 sec of Greater Heal which is really reserved for emergency healing, and thus isn't used often.

    If you want to keep B&S thats fine... I don't personally because if I heal my role is to output as much healing as I possibly can. If I need to heal for my guild the amount of healing is more important than any utility I can bring. If I was always healing i'd probably consider getting it... it also boils down to whether you have a Disc priest in your raid as B&S is severely limited by the disc's shields or you're going to tread on their toes. In any case I think it's a personal choice, if u want it go for it.

    I think its a good idea to grab spirit/haste items in particular. There is a point though where non spirit items look attractive, particularly rings and necks. You mention you love crit but crit at the end of the day is somewhat mediocre, particularly once you hit around the 30% mark. Crit heals are unreliable sources of HPS, and less HPS than the equivalent amounts of haste and SP. Just think about upping your crit to get 1 more per 100 spells landed... crits only heal for 50% more... if you were to up your haste by 1% you get an entire extra cast which could crit... the extra cast is 100% more healing and maybe 150% more.... at the end of the day upping your crit is a diminishing relationship with HPS, and thats assuming that crit is 100% effective. Upping your haste always has a linear effect to your HPS and this is one of the reasons it's far more desirable. Lastly increasing your casting speed increases your reaction times and that can lead to less deaths or better survivability.

    Personally let crit come naturally, look to gain as much sp/haste as possible... i'd actually begin to favour haste at very high sp levels because extra sp is going to result in more overhealing than effective healing...

    I'm not going to comment on the disc side... I don't profess to be an expert there. I'll let kelesti give you his insight for that.

  6. #6

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysdexic
    Thank you for your insightful contribution.
    I can see where your 5k posts came from.
    That is pretty ammusing Nez...

  7. #7

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Quote Originally Posted by Flormelis
    Spellpower+Int has proven to be the best gems you can get. In general int on gear grants you way more pr. IP ( Itempoint) Than spirit would ever get even near. So, gem Haste if your regen is fine, gem int if its not.

    Being at where you are in progression, you should be able to either request the math on EJ, or figure it out yourself. Posting a wall of text asking a question that either comes down to preference, or can be concluded directly from math makes me want to butcher you.
    I don't actually agree with these sentiments... firstly you don't itemise gear, ie you don't get to select the amount of int/sp on an item. In addition when it comes to gemming you don't need to gem for more int because our mana pool and regen levels are so massive that its virtually impossible to go oom anyways. Gems should be used for throughput and spirit is a better throughput stat than int... not that you would chose spirit over int anyways, yellow gems are going to attract sp/haste or maybe pure haste... the only spirit you gem is in a blue socket for sp/spirit coz there really isn't a better option.

    So getting back to this item level argument, u dont specify how the gear is presented to you, so squeezing a bit of extra ilvl points to be spent on what you want isn't actually physically possible. Instead you'll find a majority of spirit/haste gear is about the best itemised you can find and this leads you to rely on spirit for a lot of your regen.

    In addition some assumptions made at EJ's are poor and undervalue the true value of spirit. I have linked many times some work from Bobturkey (do a google search to find his blog) and he shows plenty of convincing math to show that spirit and int are close to identical. That's just in terms of pure mp/5, spirit then has the benefit of being converted to SP. Which means spirit is a better throughput stat and thus in my view more desirable than int.

    So while some people will argue this point, its not like you can remove the 60 spirit off an item for say 45 more int and then use the 15 remaining ilvl budget on extra sp... thats why that argument doesnt work. Perhaps when reforging becomes possible this line of thought might have some weight.

  8. #8

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Im assuming your discipline spec is a pvp spec..?

  9. #9

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Ok the disc spec atm is pvp obviously, I swap it for a cookie cutter pve spec when needed.

    The only thing that I'm a little confused about is what worshaka was posting. If you were posting everything from a holy PoV, then I wasn't being clear enough. The big wall of text where I wrote crit > haste was for disc because you're at the BT-haste cap so more DA would be the way to go imo. (Unless you meant regardless of BT-haste cap, get more haste anyway for when you're spamming).

    Assuming, however that you were just talking about holy. Yes I agree, I pref haste items to crit. However, if I want a spirit item in every slot then in some places I'm just going to have to get crit. (Bracers are an excellent example, there is not a single haste/spirit wrist in ICC10/25).

    Being at where you are in progression, you should be able to either request the math on EJ, or figure it out yourself. Posting a wall of text asking a question that either comes down to preference, or can be concluded directly from math makes me want to butcher you.
    The EJ healing compendium is a piece of trash. And besides, I don't want math. I wanted a discussion/comparison with 2 priests who I've seen around here and I trust their judgement.

    Q: What talents are low priority, or useless now, from the Holy tree? (for PvE)
    A: Blessed Recovery and Searing Light (useless). Spell Warding. Improved Renew. Empowered Renew. Lightwell. Blessed Resilience.
    ^ This is from EJ. This is also very wrong.


    Btw, ty worshaka, I like the idea of dropping 1 from Divine fury.

  10. #10

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    I don't consider myself an expert or heavily experienced with Priest healing, but I've done a lot of research the past couple months coupled with the raiding I've done and very experienced Priests I converse with regularly in-game.

    I haven't played Disc in several months, and probably couldn't go back to it now for raid healing. For me, Holy is the only option. Looking at your spec, gear and gemming, it seems like it should do just well, with maybe the switch of points from Emp. Healing and 1/2 SoL to Blessed Resilience the only change I would really suggest personally.

    To me Holy feels like it should be more of a jack-of-all-trades. With our talents and abilities we're able to cover every area/type of healing adequately. We can certainly top the meters on many fights and can usually even shine as tank healers if done correctly with spec, all while rarely having mana issues. That's also usually the position I find myself in for my raids. I typically run with at least 1 shaman, 1 druid, 1 (sometimes 2) paladin(s), and at least 1 other priest healing. I find myself helping out tank healing sometimes but mostly raid healing, and I have no problems keeping pace with the Druid, pulling 3.5k-4.5k HPS on most fights in ICC, higher on some.

    I have not yet experimented with B&S, but have toyed around with making a few specs on WoWHead that include it along with other talents that I personally deem "necessary", and will be trying them in time. It just seems too situational to really be useful in my standard healing build, especially for 2 points.

    Feel free to check out my current spec/gear/glyphs/gems/etc (see signature). Any and all critique welcome as long as it's constructive.

    My "goal" is: WoWHead Profile

    Quick explanation of the "goal" stats/gems: The haste level is something I'm comfortable with there, 23% is fairly nice haste, 3600+ sp unbuffed = very nice, I gemmed sp+crit because my crit was too low for my liking, still is slightly low, I generally prefer 20% unbuffed (sans talents), but 19.6% is close enough. Though I could easily swap out the cloak or ring for the crit equivalent without losing much haste at all.

    Thoughts? Ideas? Specific topics to discuss about the specs? I don't feel like I've really talked about much, but you post didn't seem to ask a clear question or pose a specific point of discussion.

  11. #11

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Quote Originally Posted by klaugh
    My "goal" is: WoWHead Profile

    Quick explanation of the "goal" stats/gems: The haste level is something I'm comfortable with there, 23% is fairly nice haste, 3600+ sp unbuffed = very nice, I gemmed sp+crit because my crit was too low for my liking, still is slightly low, I generally prefer 20% unbuffed (sans talents), but 19.6% is close enough. Though I could easily swap out the cloak or ring for the crit equivalent without losing much haste at all.
    That set is too concerned with Spirit. You only need to float around 1k unbuffed and dipping down to around 900 is perfectly acceptable. Switch some of the Spirit gear with Haste/Crit gear and you could get some better results. Check the Crit/Spirit gear first, then the Haste/Spirit gear for Crit/Spirit alternatives. That will bring up your crit without hurting your haste and then allow you to gem better. It looks like you can gain an extra 150 crit and 100 haste pretty easily in exchange for Spirit giving you a lot more well rounded stats. You could then safely gem SP/haste instead of SP/crit and gain another 80 haste from the regem.

  12. #12

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Quote Originally Posted by klaugh
    I don't consider myself an expert or heavily experienced with Priest healing, but I've done a lot of research the past couple months coupled with the raiding I've done and very experienced Priests I converse with regularly in-game.

    I haven't played Disc in several months, and probably couldn't go back to it now for raid healing. For me, Holy is the only option. Looking at your spec, gear and gemming, it seems like it should do just well, with maybe the switch of points from Emp. Healing and 1/2 SoL to Blessed Resilience the only change I would really suggest personally.

    To me Holy feels like it should be more of a jack-of-all-trades. With our talents and abilities we're able to cover every area/type of healing adequately. We can certainly top the meters on many fights and can usually even shine as tank healers if done correctly with spec, all while rarely having mana issues. That's also usually the position I find myself in for my raids. I typically run with at least 1 shaman, 1 druid, 1 (sometimes 2) paladin(s), and at least 1 other priest healing. I find myself helping out tank healing sometimes but mostly raid healing, and I have no problems keeping pace with the Druid, pulling 3.5k-4.5k HPS on most fights in ICC, higher on some.

    I have not yet experimented with B&S, but have toyed around with making a few specs on WoWHead that include it along with other talents that I personally deem "necessary", and will be trying them in time. It just seems too situational to really be useful in my standard healing build, especially for 2 points.

    Feel free to check out my current spec/gear/glyphs/gems/etc (see signature). Any and all critique welcome as long as it's constructive.

    My "goal" is: WoWHead Profile

    Quick explanation of the "goal" stats/gems: The haste level is something I'm comfortable with there, 23% is fairly nice haste, 3600+ sp unbuffed = very nice, I gemmed sp+crit because my crit was too low for my liking, still is slightly low, I generally prefer 20% unbuffed (sans talents), but 19.6% is close enough. Though I could easily swap out the cloak or ring for the crit equivalent without losing much haste at all.

    Thoughts? Ideas? Specific topics to discuss about the specs? I don't feel like I've really talked about much, but you post didn't seem to ask a clear question or pose a specific point of discussion.
    Well your spec looks fine obviously, ours are identical with the exception of mine taking a point out of divine fury (ty worshaka) and inner focus to get BaS.
    You need to try it yourself to see if you like it. I can't live without it, and it's gotten to the point where my RL yells at me to BaS certain people at certain points to help them (I gotta BaS one of our resto druids on sindragosa's magic pulls cuz his fps drops to nothing with that kind of stuff)
    Your current gear doesn't look great obviously but your wishlist looks fine.

    I'd call the spirit/int/haste/crit thing preference. As it is I think I'm starting to realize maybe I was just a bit paranoid about how much spirit I need. I'm working towards getting a few items for a more throughput oriented gear setup (i.e althor's abacus over spark).

  13. #13

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    First, let me state that I am incredibly sorry I couldn't be in here earlier. And let me start off with:
    usually pretty enlightening when you're not arguing with each other about semantics or something silly.
    If I didn't argue about something silly, it'd have to be about something cereal!

    I'm going to stay away from commenting on Discipline for the time being, simply because others can do it better and I'm looking into their insight to help improve my own play with the spec as well as bumping up the game of those I play with.

    On to Holy:
    The build's a nice solid build, but I generally try to squeeze out a Divine Hymn nearly every boss fight so I see value in Inner Focus that others most definitely do not. Personally, I'd take that one point out of Blessed Resilience, and you have pretty much the build I'm running at the moment. (I know, I'm sorry to disappoint my fans but I dropped lolwell this week.)

    Given the return of actual raid damage, I've looked again to Spell Warding, not because I need it to survive, but because I can use it to higher effect than I can with Divine Fury (I do cast Greater Heals, but I don't feel the need to talent them). It lets me get away with things I shouldn't be able to. Careless? A bit. Breathing room that makes others jealous of my filler talent "options"? Absolutely. Is it or Body and Soul required at this point? Not required in the least, but they're both a lot of fun.

    Taking a step away from that, and moving into your gear choices from your wishlist. Personally, I'd step away from a couple tier pieces. There's even a chest peice (Sanguine something robes) from Blood Princes 25 that's similar itemisation, but less crit, and replaced with haste. It also has the same skin so you can keep the look you were going for. I'd also personally replace Lightweave with Darkglow, and drop the Solace of the Fallen for the Althor's Abacus. More "bang for your buck" there, in my honest opinion.

    I also like the itemisation points that Worshaka brings up. Most people tend to forget that "forget spirit int is better" really makes absolutely no sense. Comes down to Int/SP/Haste, then what? Hit/Crit/Spirit. Well, spirit's alright for some added regen and a little bit of solid thoroughput, hit is obviously a big waste, and crit has huge diminishing value for mana sustainability and its thoroughput is weak and still subject to RNG. A big meh on that one.

    Also of note: You don't need to have Spirit on every peice of gear either. If there are some better choices available, it's okay to run with a 0-spirit peice in one (or several) slot/s, trying to tone down your abundant regen. Careful though, hard-modes are tending to take a little while longer to do, as is Arthas himself. Find a regen level you're comfortable with, a bit heavy is alright but you shouldn't feel the need to soak it.

    As even you pointed out, the EJ boards are generally pretty bad. This is true for a lot of classes/specs. Unless you run a Rogue, Death Knight, or DPS Warrior, the quality of the boards are pretty subpar, and the healing ones are nothing but theory and untested/outdated ideas to begin with. Good in concept, flawed in execution, and often abandoned regardless.

    Judging from your most recent post, I'd have to say something I've said before. Your own testing and findings will outweigh anything of what people can say. I can post 1000 tips, but unless you figure out the how/why for yourself, well there's not really much point in doing it. So good luck, and keep it up.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  14. #14

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Thanks for the posts
    And I'll consider getting inner focus again, I do use hymn a lot and I wouldn't get IF again to save mana, but more to make it heal even MOAR.

    What I kiiiiiinda wanted were your armories
    And yes I saw the chest from council, so i can use that as my offset instead of gloves since tier gloves have haste anyway. I just gotta make sure the heroic council chest is also white/blue like our tier >


    Btw, nobody has said a word about spark of hope. I know the trinket guide has it rated at like 200 mp5 if you're heavy spammer or whatever, but do people in general still tend to use this thing?
    I can't help but think it's still ridiculously awesome and sexy and stuff.

  15. #15

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Worshaka's armory is easy. Just take a look at her sig and look her up on the armory. Kelesti, however, I can't help you much with.
    If curiosity killed the cat, why can't speculation kill you?
    There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.

  16. #16

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Cereal?
    I personally like Honey Bunches of Oats.

  17. #17
    Dreadlord
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    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysdexic
    Thanks for the posts
    And I'll consider getting inner focus again, I do use hymn a lot and I wouldn't get IF again to save mana, but more to make it heal even MOAR.
    Bah, I just made a post about this in the spec discussion sticky, so I won't reitterate myself, but suffice to say, I think getting IF for DH isn't anywhere near worth it IMO.

    What I kiiiiiinda wanted were your armories
    And yes I saw the chest from council, so i can use that as my offset instead of gloves since tier gloves have haste anyway. I just gotta make sure the heroic council chest is also white/blue like our tier >
    I messed up my gearing and already got the tier chest before I knew that chest was available; it made me sad. FWIW, I have yet to see a case where the heroic version of a piece of gear looks any different from the normal version, so you should be fine. I'll definitely be aiming for that chest when we get to heroics.

    Btw, nobody has said a word about spark of hope. I know the trinket guide has it rated at like 200 mp5 if you're heavy spammer or whatever, but do people in general still tend to use this thing?
    I can't help but think it's still ridiculously awesome and sexy and stuff.
    It's still generally the best trinket out there in terms of pure regen, so it's definitely worth having. However, I simply have found that I don't need the regen, but the added spell power of something like Purified Lunar Dust (losing ~100 MP5 for ~150 SP) is helpful. That said, I always carry it around with me in the event that an encounter ends up needing more regen.

  18. #18

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    This is about as close to an armory as you're going to get at the moment.
    But this is my wishlist.
    And yes, I've screwed up my badges too, hence me not having the stupid badge belt.

    As for Spark of Hope, I love it. I absolutely do, and don't see myself replacing it any time soon. Sure you might get a fair chunk of thoroughput by dropping it for a mixed trinket (like the stupid Lunar Dust for example), and that's fine for your 6 minute fights. But when Arthas comes calling, you should be reaching for this again considering the length of the fight, if nothing else.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  19. #19

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Trauma

    I know it got fixed recently, and we have 1 resto shammy who is using it. It went from doing like 1% of his healing to 5-6%. When it drops next maybe I'll pick it up just to play with it (it went to an off speccer last time, I think people don't like proccy stuff much in my guild).

    And ty btw I gotta say though, in fights where regen isn't that big of a deal I'd probably drop spark for the abacus to have 2sp trinkets. I mean the only reason I'd swap it in is if regen wasn't an issue, and the logical implication is that you'd want more throughput.

  20. #20

    Re: Worshaka and Kelesti:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti

    On to Holy:
    The build's a nice solid build, but I generally try to squeeze out a Divine Hymn nearly every boss fight so I see value in Inner Focus that others most definitely do not.
    At the end of the day taking IF isn't a poor thing to do, however I think to justify it you need more than being able to use in conjunction with a 10min CD.

    Like I said not a poor choice but think carefully before getting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Given the return of actual raid damage, I've looked again to Spell Warding, not because I need it to survive, but because I can use it to higher effect than I can with Divine Fury (I do cast Greater Heals, but I don't feel the need to talent them).
    Spell warding isn't a poor choice either... however I play with Aussie ping and I use Gheal as a reactive tool to those near death. In that vain I find that divine fury is more value for my circumstances... if you find yourself barely using Gheal or use it in a different way to how I use it, spell warding is worth some thought.


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