Feral: haste > agi

[Elunedra]

i personaly defetly think not

but once u are crit capped like 79.8% u competely loose the crit part fo agility

i saw in someone's BiS list he nechant haste rating on his cape instead of agi and it was verry surprised
(http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t63774-cat_dps_guide/p27/)

but if agi gets so bad will mongooze still be best enchant ? i gues it will be bezerger then

[arel00]

Yes, once at the crit cap Haste beats agility.

Mongoose wins because it's 120ap, a small amount of crit which still benefits some strikes, AND 2% haste.
Don't forget the last part.

[Shifthappens]

why is it when i used mongoose i didnt notice any DPS increase over beserker and im sitting at 12.900 AP in raid

just asking how can 120 AP 1% crit and 2% haste can outweight berserking?

if good answers provided and ill get conviced ill enchant it on my Distant Land, else no thx.

[Sunshine]

just asking how can 120 AP 1% crit and 2% haste can outweight berserking?

Mongoose is 120 agi = 157 ap and 1.7% crit (with kings and all applicable modifiers), plus 2% haste. Berserking is 400 AP.

The question is, would you prefer 1.7% crit and 2% haste or 280 AP? Crit may be meh if you're near the crit cap, but the haste is really where it's at. Don't forget that haste gives more OoC procs, in addition to more white hits. Especially as your armor pen gets higher, haste gets better because your white hits count for more.

[Elunedra]

if u look at it in term of stat values :

Mungooze
120 agi = 157 AP
120 agi = 1.7% crit

1.7% crit
45.91 CritRating = 1% Crit
45.91 * 1.7 = 78.05 crit rating

2% haste
32.79 HasteRating = 1% Haste
32.79 * 2 = 65.58 haste rating

2 AP = ~1 rating
157 / 2 = 78.5

sort of budget points = 222.14

Bezerker
400 AP
1 AP = 21 AP
400 * 1.21 = 484
2 AP = ~1 rating
484 / 2 = 242

soft of budget points = 242

so on budget bezerker wins ofc lol, the real question is how mcuh is each stat worth for a feral druid

that is something i cannot help u whit but i am sure AP is worth pretty crap

[arel00]

why is it when i used mongoose i didnt notice any DPS increase over beserker and im sitting at 12.900 AP in raid

just asking how can 120 AP 1% crit and 2% haste can outweight berserking?

if good answers provided and ill get conviced ill enchant it on my Distant Land, else no thx.

It's about stats-weight. But be prepared to see extremely small differences, often the gap between enchants isn't big for druid.

I'll give you an example, but first:

- DISCLAIMER : these value change with every single shift in your gear -

These are the values (from RAWR) once you capped ArP (1st prio), Crit (2nd prio) and then Hit/Exp. It is wise to note that at the crit cap, the start weight of hit and crit is so insanely hard, that you'll want those 2 caps asap.
Well, here we go:

Haste 2.34
Agility 2.24
Strength 2.14
Crit 1.80
AP 0.90

Now let's do some math:

Berserk is 400AP, plus 10% form HotW, plus 10% from raid buffs (such as AM).
400*1.1(HotW)*1.1(AM) = 484AP

With the given budget:
484*0.9 = 435.6

Mongoose is 120agi and 2% haste. Given the haste conversion, it's 120agi and 65.58 haste rating.
Take into account all modifiers:
120*1.02(Imp.MotW)*1.06(SotF)*1.1(Kings) = 142.718, take 142agi

With the given budget:
142*2.24 = 318.08
65.58*2.34 = 153.457

Total of 471.537

As you can see, at that level Mongoose has a bigger DPS value than Berserk.

Is it better for you? We don't know. As I said, the stat weights change a lot when you shift around your gear.
When do you meet the turning point? The only answer is check something like RAWR or Toskk, and then get your answer.
But if you wanted a proof at those caps, well, served.

Edit: Elunedra, you should change your wording. You measured the item points, not the stat values. On that regard, Berserk always wins, and guess what, level80 enchants > level 70 enchants on "item-level equivalent".
Stat weights and item points are very different things tho.

[Shifthappens]

im in full 264 gear, but im still using Berserking, i just didnt see any DPS difference and from my experience mongoose proc is much lower then berserking

my stats be (in combat, in raid)
13000 + AP
94% passive ARP
68% Crit
433 Haste
5.25% exp
hit capped

i pull around 10700 DPS on Festergut.

[Cheezee]

Looking at the fights from last night where I get to be a cat I saw mongoose up times from 24-41% (rounded). Oddly enough though the lowest up time was Saurfang and the highest was Blood Princes. WTF? ???

[Elunedra]

Edit: Elunedra, you should change your wording. You measured the item points, not the stat values. On that regard, Berserk always wins, and guess what, level80 enchants > level 70 enchants on "item-level equivalent".
Stat weights and item points are very different things tho.

yeh tru

anyway i use rawr myzelf but how can i get it show my stat values ?

and at witch crit cap does haste get better then agi ?

76% - White crit cap (+ 24% Glancing Blows = 100%) or
79.8% - Ferocious Bite Crit Cap (+ 25% Crit from Talent - 4.8% Crit Suppression = 100%) or
104.8% - Yellow Crit Cap (- 4.8% Crit Suppression = 100%)

[Biznick]

yeh tru

anyway i use rawr myzelf but how can i get it show my stat values ?

and at witch crit cap does haste get better then agi ?

76% - White crit cap (+ 24% Glancing Blows = 100%) or
79.8% - Ferocious Bite Crit Cap (+ 25% Crit from Talent - 4.8% Crit Suppression = 100%) or
104.8% - Yellow Crit Cap (- 4.8% Crit Suppression = 100%)

Apparantly the crit capped was hot fixxed and you can now overcome crit suppression (per EJ, other theorycrafters) so it essentially works like yellow attacks.

That being said, the new white crit cap is 80.8%, or 77.8% with a ret pally or ele shammy in raid. This will make it much more of a stretch to hit crit cap, especially since most of us will be stacking ArP and shooting for hard cap.

[arel00]

yeh tru

anyway i use rawr myzelf but how can i get it show my stat values ?

On the right side, where is shows the comparison between items.

Click "Slot: Gear" and it will pop a menu. One of the voices you can choose is "Relative Stat Values". And there you go.

im in full 264 gear, but im still using Berserking, i just didnt see any DPS difference and from my experience mongoose proc is much lower then berserking

Actually, no. Berserker and Mongoose are both 1PPM, they have the same duration, and they are affected in the exact same way by Haste and specials. The effective PPM they get is 100% identical.

[Biznick]

why is it when i used mongoose i didnt notice any DPS increase over beserker and im sitting at 12.900 AP in raid

Its because its really not that big of a difference. Its about a 10-20 DPS increase depending on your stats.

[pizzola]

im in full 264 gear, but im still using Berserking, i just didnt see any DPS difference and from my experience mongoose proc is much lower then berserking

I've seen the proc rates vary anywhere between 35-60% up-time for both enchants. Thus being said, the enchants are pretty much a personal preference because the small amount of difference will be lost in rng.

[Pikapika]

Apparantly the crit capped was hot fixxed and you can now overcome crit suppression (per EJ, other theorycrafters) so it essentially works like yellow attacks.

That being said, the new white crit cap is 80.8%, or 77.8% with a ret pally or ele shammy in raid. This will make it much more of a stretch to hit crit cap, especially since most of us will be stacking ArP and shooting for hard cap.

Or mutilate rogue.

[snuzzle]

I'm pretty surprised that, when you're crit capped (assuming hit/exp/arp are capped as well), haste beats out strength.

[braxx]

about mongoose vs berserk I think we should look at the uptime more than anything else since you cant do sh*t with mongoose uptime imo

[arel00]

about mongoose vs berserk I think we should look at the uptime more than anything else since you cant do sh*t with mongoose uptime imo

I think you should dig more into both spells before posting wrong information to be honest.

Both Mongoose and Berserk are 15sec duration, 1PPM enchant. The average uptime of the two enchants is identical.

[littlepiggy]

I'm pretty surprised that, when you're crit capped (assuming hit/exp/arp are capped as well), haste beats out strength.

it depends on the gear set, i've made about 4 different set's on rawr to play around with possible upgrades i could get, gear i'll never see and gear i can probably get eventually and strength has always been over haste. its going to take a certain amount of gear / lots of 277 to get there

[ctskelton]

i personaly defetly think not

but once u are crit capped like 79.8% u competely loose the crit part fo agility

i saw in someone's BiS list he nechant haste rating on his cape instead of agi and it was verry surprised
(http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t63774-cat_dps_guide/p27/)

but if agi gets so bad will mongooze still be best enchant ? i gues it will be bezerger then

Is this for real? Not the concept, I could barely make that out, but the grammar and spelling? You spell worse than the guy who wrote your sig.

Sorry I can't respond to this kind of stupidity you're putting out to me right now.

[Biznick]

I'm pretty surprised that, when you're crit capped (assuming hit/exp/arp are capped as well), haste beats out strength.

I honestly don't think its going to matter. With the changes to the crit cap I don't think were going to be able to hit arp hard cap, hit the hit and expertise caps, and hit the crit cap all at the same time and still have room to gem or enchant haste.