Can't figure it out... (Haste Versus Exp)

[Contion_BB]

Some People are telling me I should drop my EXP gems for haste gems... By Doing So... I will loose a good 6/6 Exp taking me down to 20 if not to 19. Is the small gain in haste worth the lose of being able to hit a boss? the math doesn't work in my head where that would be more viable...

this is the Priority I follow

IF CD up - SR (2p t10)
IF CD up - SW
IF CD up - MT
IF no SS - SS
IF MW5 & SS - LB(CL)
IF no FS DoT - FS
IF Shock on CD - LL
IF SS & FS Dot - ES
IF CD up - FN
IF no LS - LS
IF Threat => 75% - WS (usually not a problem)

There is only one button I have macroed for DPS...

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=combat/target Flame Shock, Earth Shock

Button Layout
1-Wind Shear, 2-StormStrike, 3-ShockMacro, 4-LavaLash, 5-ChainLightning, 6-MagmaTotem, 7-FireNova, 8-LightningShield, 9-ShamansiticRage

my armory page - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...hed&cn=Contion

In the 25man Toravon (before troll we did not down him cause ranged weren't doing their job) I did last night I was pulling 7.2k DPS

People are swearing that increasing my haste to 526 (soft cap or something like that) that I will increase my DPS by almost 2k? I don't see how the numbers are playing out to be able to... if the boss is dodging more...

Please give me some input.

[sicness]

No it's not worth it. The two primary stats you should always focus on before anything else is getting hit capped with spells and expertise capped to dodge. The only time I don't cap out expertise is when I'm 1 away from being capped and just deal with that rather than using a gem to make it up, otherwise you should always cap it.

You shouldn't be using a cast sequence macro if you're looking to maximizing your dps. Even though they one you show isn't as bad as others it's still not optimal dps as flame shock will always do more damage than earth shock if the dot can complete.

Gemming for haste can improve your dps, but it varies with your gear so your best bet is to import your character into RAWR and use the sim to see what is maximum dps for your gear.

[Contion_BB]

Gemming for haste can improve your dps, but it varies with your gear so your best bet is to import your character into RAWR and use the sim to see what is maximum dps for your gear.

unless I am doing something wrong in ehnSim... it says I should be doing 4k less DPS then I actually do in game :-/

[evan_s]

Well issue number 1 is the Shock Macro. It's not a good idea and as it is written it's even worse. If you insist on using a shock macro you need to add at least one more earth shock on. As it is your shock macro is casting Flame shock, then 1 earth shock ~ 6 seconds later and then casting flame shock again after 12 seconds clipping several dot ticks. This is actually a dps loss over just using only earth shock.

As far as the 7.2k dps goes I'd say that isn't bad for your gear level. You could probably be doing a bit more but I don't think you'd hit the 9k dps they seem to think you should be doing with out more 264 iLevel gear.

As far as the simm goes make sure you have your talents setup properly (should be if you loaded a profile) and you have appropriate raid buffs check.

[Ecology]

Get exp cap and then start gemming haste.. Your ap gemming makes me wanna scratch my eyes out... and your spec/glyphs are shit

[Contion_BB]

Get exp cap and then start gemming haste.. Your ap gemming makes me wanna scratch my eyes out... and your spec/glyphs are shit

you should do more then just down my stuff... you should give me advice as this is a forum asking for it... >.<

[evan_s]

Glyph of feral spirit is one of the best glyphs available assuming you remember to use them regularly. Currently the glyph of Flameshock is usually only worth taking if you still have the t9 4peice set. After the 3.3.3 patch that may change.

Recommended glyphs would be Storm strike, Feral Spirit and windfury.

As far as the spec goes you could probably loose some points in mana regen/saving talents and pick up the last point in Call of flame and another point in Imp shields. 1 point in imp storm strike and shamanistic focus should be enough to maintain your mana since you are using SR every chance you get for the t10 2 peice set bonus.

[LyskaWF]

unless I am doing something wrong in ehnSim... it says I should be doing 4k less DPS then I actually do in game :-/

There are certain points where being a couple rating under the expertise cap in exchange for other stats is a DPS increase, but I can't imagine any situation in which being 6/6 under is helpful. I don't think the sim is going to say otherwise.

Post your config file so we can take a look at it. One suggestion I have for you is to take some points out of mana conservation/regen talents. You really don't need any once you're in 245 gear (maybe 1 or 2 points, but definitely not 4), but definitely not in 251/264.

[heartlarva]

unless I am doing something wrong in ehnSim... it says I should be doing 4k less DPS then I actually do in game :-/

You may need to check if you are running out of mana in your sim, or you do not have your raid buffs enabled, or you don't have priorities set up...

[Fornaw]

Some People are telling me I should drop my EXP gems for haste gems... By Doing So... I will loose a good 6/6 Exp taking me down to 20 if not to 19. Is the small gain in haste worth the lose of being able to hit a boss? the math doesn't work in my head where that would be more viable...

this is the Priority I follow

IF CD up - SR (2p t10)
IF CD up - SW
IF CD up - MT
IF no SS - SS
IF MW5 - LB(CL)
IF no FS DoT - FS
ES
SS
IF Shock on CD - LL
IF SS & FS Dot - ES
IF CD up - FN
IF no LS - LS
IF Threat => 75% - WS (usually not a problem)

Fixed that a little, made my head hurt to see falling logic fail (how can you reach "IF SS & FS Dot - ES" having passed through "IF no SS - SS"?). It's still not quite right, consult the sticky.

There is only one button I have macroed for DPS...

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=combat/target Flame Shock, Earth Shock

Yeah... That means you clip your dots and you would be quite a bit better off just using earthshock. This macro could be improved if it had a 2:1 ratio, at least then it would be an improvement over ignoring FS completely, but you should really just do it manually.

Button Layout
1-Wind Shear, 2-StormStrike, 3-ShockMacro, 4-LavaLash, 5-ChainLightning, 6-MagmaTotem, 7-FireNova, 8-LightningShield, 9-ShamansiticRage

Aside from the fact that I have never understood how people can play with the 1 button bound to something inane, 5 is Lightning bolt, right? ... right?

my armory page - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...hed&cn=Contion

In the 25man Toravon (before troll we did not down him cause ranged weren't doing their job) I did last night I was pulling 7.2k DPS

People are swearing that increasing my haste to 526 (soft cap or something like that) that I will increase my DPS by almost 2k? I don't see how the numbers are playing out to be able to... if the boss is dodging more...

Please give me some input.

Regemming more haste to lose expertise hasn't ever looked like a valid option, whoever is telling you this is violating the Sticky on this thread, violating the Enhancement Credo (SIM IT), and violating logic. Also there is no softcap below 1k rating (closest softcap that I am aware of is ~1300).

unless I am doing something wrong in ehnSim... it says I should be doing 4k less DPS then I actually do in game :-/

I guarantee you did something wrong. Did you spend your talent points? Did you tell it to use SR? Did you give it a priority queue at all?

If you post your config or output we should be able to tell what went wrong. (enclose it in code delimiters {code} *wall of text* {\code}, replace { with [ and } with ])

[Deleted]

unless I am doing something wrong in ehnSim... it says I should be doing 4k less DPS then I actually do in game :-/

Yes you are either forgetting to tell Enhsim about your buffs or your are not telling it what your priorities are. You will NEVER EVER be able to out dps the sim unless something is seriously broken with it.

[Deleted]

Fixed that a little, made my head hurt to see falling logic fail (how can you reach "IF SS & FS Dot - ES" having passed through "IF no SS - SS"?). It's still not quite right, consult the sticky.

Actually its perfectly possible to pass through "If no SS - SS"!!! When??? When SS is on CD but you have used up all your SS debuffs, doesn't often happen but it can happen. It is not a logic fail.

Remember EVERY test in the priority list has an implicit "and if ability is off cooldown".

[heartlarva]

Also there is no softcap below 1k rating (closest softcap that I am aware of is ~1300).

Is that a haste soft cap? I am curious to learn more...

[Deleted]

Is that a haste soft cap? I am curious to learn more...

Any Enhancement Shaman in ICC gear that's even close to 1300 haste has some serious balance issues re:crit/hit. There is no recognisable haste cap per-se that is achievable with current gear. There may be a theoretical haste cap but to date no effort has been expended on reaching that. The issue is that unlike our Elemental brothers we'd still get benefit from haste even at a level beyond that of the 1sec GCD. This is because a massive proportion of our damage comes from white hits and more haste means more white hits.

So I am not aware of a theoretical haste cap. I would however be interested in theories in what that might be as a purely intellectual exercise.

[Contion_BB]

so plugging my Rawr Data into EhnSim. **** EDIT **** just found out my enhsim version downloaded was the wrong version


I get two errors...

EP hit goes pass cap with spells
MH and OH exp are over cap. EP exp will be skipped

as well its not seeing my trinkets, set bonus, or totem.

i played with the enhsim and it seems 7.2k is what it is roughly telling me now...

### Saved by version 1.7.0 of EnhSimGUI

simulation_time         1000
simulation_time_combatlog    30
combat_length          6
report_count          80
threads             2
min_lag             0
max_lag             0
simulate_mana          1

ep_precision          2
ep_base_stat          ap
ep_ap              64
ep_crit_rating         46
ep_hit_rating          30
ep_expertise          4
ep_haste_rating         33
ep_armor_penetration_rating   15
ep_spellpower          28
ep_dps             10.0
ep_mana             200
ep_spirit            100
ep_mp5             20

mh_auto_attack         1
oh_auto_attack         1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd       0
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd    0
bloodlust_casters        1
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets  1
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left    15.0
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left  4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active   1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left    0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left  0
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left    750
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left  3000

rotation_priority_count     8
rotation_priority1       MW5_LB
rotation_priority2       SR
rotation_priority3       SW
rotation_priority4       SS
rotation_priority5       FS
rotation_priority6       ES_SS
rotation_priority7       LL
rotation_priority8       MT

miss              8.0
dodge              6.5
glancing            24.0
armor              10645
spell_miss           17.0
nature_resistance        0
fire_resistance         0
frost_resistance        0
arcane_resistance        0
shadow_resistance        0

armor_debuff_major       20.0/20.0
armor_debuff_minor       5.0/5.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff  4.0/4.0
melee_haste_buff        20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff     5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat     687/687
attack_power_buff_multiplier  0/99.7
spell_haste_buff        5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff     5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff    5.0/5.0
spell_damage_debuff       13.0/13.0
spellpower_buff         280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff     3.0/3.0
haste_buff           3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase   3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff       3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier         10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff          51/51
agi_and_strength_buff      178/178
intellect_buff         60/60

replenishment          1
water_shield          0
mana_spring_totem        0
blessing_of_wisdom       1
judgement_of_wisdom       1

flask_elixir          flask_of_endless_rage
guardian_elixir         -
potion             -
food              fish_feast

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon     ###
###############################################################################

race              tauren
mh_speed            2.6
oh_speed            2.6
mh_dps             205.6
oh_dps             205.6
mh_crit             46.10
oh_crit             46.10
mh_hit             13.54
oh_hit             13.54
mh_expertise_rating       140
oh_expertise_rating       140
ap               4905
melee_haste           9.75
armor_penetration        14.43
str               145
agi               1324
int               672
spi               165
spellpower           1472
spell_crit           33.52
spell_hit            16.93
spell_haste           7.50
max_mana            14196
mp5               0

mh_imbue            windfury
oh_imbue            flametongue

mh_enchant           berserking
oh_enchant           berserking

mh_weapon            -
oh_weapon            axe

trinket1            50342
trinket2            50355

totem              50463

set_bonus1           t10_battlegear_2
set_bonus2           -
set_bonus3           -

metagem             41398

gloves_enchant         -
cloak_enchant          -

glyph_major1          lightning_shield
glyph_major2          flame_shock
glyph_major3          stormstrike

glyph_minor1          -
glyph_minor2          -
glyph_minor3          -

ancestral_knowledge       2/5
improved_shields        1/3
mental_dexterity        3/3
shamanistic_focus        1/1
flurry             5/5
elemental_weapons        3/3
unleashed_rage         3/3
weapon_mastery         3/3
dual_wield_specialization    3/3
mental_quickness        3/3
improved_stormstrike      2/2
static_shock          3/3
maelstrom_weapon        5/5

convection           0/5
concussion           5/5
call_of_flame          2/3
elemental_devastation      3/3
reverberation          0/5
elemental_focus         1/1
elemental_fury         5/5
call_of_thunder         0/1
unrelenting_storm        0/3
elemental_precision       0/3
lightning_mastery        0/5
elemental_oath         0/2
lightning_overload       0/5
lava_flows           0/3
storm_earth_and_fire      0/3
shamanism            0/5

Here are the Results

Trinket 50342 not found.
Trinket 50355 not found.
Totem 50463 not found.
Set bonus t10_battlegear_2 not found.
EnhSim version 1.7.0

................................................................................

MH:
miss        87       7.15%
dodge        0       0.00%
glancing      304      25.00%
hit         82       6.74%
crit        743      61.10%

MH Windfury:
procs/hits     15.06%
procs/swings    14.14%
miss        0       0.00%
dodge        0       0.00%
hit         172      42.79%
crit        230      57.21%

MH Storsmtrike:
miss        0       0.00%
dodge        0       0.00%
hit         86       41.75%
crit        120      58.25%

OH:
miss        97       7.98%
dodge        0       0.00%
glancing      292      24.01%
hit         88       7.24%
crit        739      60.77%

OH Flametongue:
miss        0       0.00%
hit         800      50.63%
crit        780      49.37%

OH Stormstrike:
miss        0       0.00%
dodge        0       0.00%
hit         67       32.52%
crit        139      67.48%

Earth Shock:
miss        0       0.00%
hit         98       55.06%
crit        80       44.94%

Flame Shock:
miss        0       0.00%
hit         50       55.56%
crit        40       44.44%
dots        535.00

Lava Lash:
miss        0       0.00%
dodge        0       0.00%
hit         93       36.47%
crit        162      63.53%

Lightning Bolt:
miss        0       0.00%
hit         156      59.09%
crit        108      40.91%

Spirit Wolves:
miss        0       0.00%
dodge        38       4.90%
glancing      168      21.65%
hit         474      61.08%
crit        96       12.37%

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM         48.87

flurry uptime         99.42%
unleashed rage uptime     100.04%
elemental devastation uptime  81.89%
elemental oath uptime     0.00%

mh enchant uptime       42.84%
oh enchant uptime       41.83%
trinket1 uptime        0.00%
trinket2 uptime        0.00%
totem uptime          0.00%
set bonus uptime        0.00%
metagem uptime         0.00%
gloves enchant uptime     0.00%
cloak enchant uptime      0.00%

          MRPS without overregen
mana regen     0.00   0.00%
mp5         18.18   10.66%
replenishment    42.72   25.04%
unrelenting storm  0.00   0.00%
judgement of wisdom 9.13   5.35%
shamanistic rage  0.00   0.00%
mana potion     0.00   0.00%
misc        0.00   0.00%
stormstrike     100.59  58.96%

          DPS         PPM    MPS
white        2423.62  33.82%  81.07
windfury      894.71  12.48%  6.70
flametongue     632.58  8.83%   52.67
stormstrike     451.25  6.3%   6.87   37.83   19.14%
lava lash      389.58  5.44%   8.50   16.89   8.55%
magma totem     549.91  7.67%   2.77   51.45   26.03%
earth shock     447.96  6.25%   5.93   23.75   12.01%
flame shock     240.69  3.36%   3.00   12.33   6.24%
lightning bolt   919.90  12.84%  8.80   52.65   26.64%
spirit wolves    216.90  3.03%   0.33   2.75   1.39%

DPS         7167.10
MPS         197.66
MP2min       23718.82
MRPS        170.79
Out of mana time  0.00%

elapsed simulation time: 0.50h
elapsed real time: 0.76s
simulation speed: 2352x

[TerryBogard]

Haste works like a limit function as far as I am aware of. That means you can never actually have 100% haste, but you can get infinitely closer to it.

[Contion_BB]

so I was playing with numbers and this is what I would be loosing/gaining if I changed all my gems/enchants to haste over AP...

(which seems to be more of an issue everyone is bringing up versus the exp question)

Lose - 40x9 + 22 ap = 342 ap
Gain - 20(.79%)x9 + 15(.60%) = 195(7.71%) haste

from my understanding...

1 ap = 1 dps
1 haste = 1.2 dps

so with the difference

320 ap = 342 dps
195 haste = 234 dps

342-234 = a loss of 108 dps

Please correct me if I am wrong...


the latest ENH with the newest Enh version running

with my AP over HASTE DPS - 8687.65
with my HASTE over AP DPS - 8810.33

[Fornaw]

Haste works like a limit function as far as I am aware of. That means you can never actually have 100% haste, but you can get infinitely closer to it.

100% haste is fully possible, in fact it should be achievable by any enhancer during bloodlust [1.25*1.2*1.3*1.03=2.01 or +101% haste from buffs (flurry*wf totem*bloodlust*swiftret)]. Thing is 100% haste does not lower your swing speed by 100%, it causes you to make 100% more melee hits, thus it reduces your swing speed to 1.3 assuming a 2.6 speed weapon. You would need infinite haste to drop your swing speed to 0, of course you would hit the boss an infinite number of times so this makes sense.

so I was playing with numbers and this is what I would be loosing/gaining if I changed all my gems/enchants to haste over AP...

(which seems to be more of an issue everyone is bringing up versus the exp question)

Lose - 40x9 + 22 ap = 342 ap
Gain - 20(.79%)x9 + 15(.60%) = 195(7.71%) haste

from my understanding...

1 ap = 1 dps
1 haste = 1.2 dps

I have no idea where you got these numbers from. 1ap will give differing amounts of DPS depending on your crit, hit, haste, expertise etc. Same with haste except it depends on AP instead of how much haste you currently have.

I'm guessing you found whatever was wrong with Enhsim, since 8k sounds pretty reasonable with your gear. I only did a cursory look over your output and config, they looked alright, with the obvious caveat that you were clearly running an out of date version.

Actually its perfectly possible to pass through "If no SS - SS"!!! When??? When SS is on CD but you have used up all your SS debuffs, doesn't often happen but it can happen. It is not a logic fail.

Remember EVERY test in the priority list has an implicit "and if ability is off cooldown".

Yeah I mistyped, I meant that the If SS debuff check before ES was superfluous with a SS if no SS debuff at the top, in fact its detrimental because it could cause you to skip ES for LL or FN if SS has fallen off but SS is not available to refresh.

[Deleted]

so plugging my Rawr Data into EhnSim. **** EDIT **** just found out my enhsim version downloaded was the wrong version


I get two errors...

EP hit goes pass cap with spells
MH and OH exp are over cap. EP exp will be skipped

as well its not seeing my trinkets, set bonus, or totem.

i played with the enhsim and it seems 7.2k is what it is roughly telling me now...

### Saved by version 1.7.0 of EnhSimGUI

You need to get version 1.9.7.1 or higher from http://enhsim.codeplex.com/ that version 1.7.0 is ancient.

[Deleted]

from my understanding...

1 ap = 1 dps
1 haste = 1.2 dps

No that is very very very wrong. You CANNOT ever just take 1 haste = x dps. The only stat you can do that with is AP where 14 AP = 1 dps. Haste, Agi, Crit etc etc etc all have very interdependent influences. eg: more haste = more white swings = more MW procs + more berserking procs and more haste = faster GCD = more abilities in a shorter time frame etc. So the amount of dps you get from 1 haste is never a constant.

Therefore the whole of the rest of your calculations just completely fall apart. This is why we have a simulator, so that it can take account of all the little changes.