Please remove the "idea" sticky

[dyce09]

still not an accurate comparison.

Rets have to chose between doing a third/quarter less damage(just guessing, don't have any numbers) or stacking a debuff only applied on autohit 5 times to do full damage.

Locks have the choice of either applying a debuff with a 1.5 second cast time or doing 10% less damage.

It's not a comparison. I wasn't making a comparison. I was making an example as to what burst damage is. It is NOT just having a spell/ability that does lots of damage in a single blow. (Ex, Chaos Bolt hitting for 10k+ is not considered burst because you don't get it instantly or very quickly at all) Ret paladin's do not have any ability that does MORE damage if said debuff was applied, LIKE chaos bolt does x amount more damage if the target is affected by Immolate. Shaman's, same thing, if the target is effected by Flame Shock, Lava Burst does more damage.

There is nothing Ret's need to apply to their target first in order for their other abilities to substantionally more damage.

You're talks about applying the stackable debuff from only white it's a different topic of WHEN to use WHAT abilities, which all classes have those decisions in PvP.

[Styria]

There is nothing Ret's need to apply to their target first in order for their other abilities to substantionally more damage.

actually, our judgements give 3% crit, thus increasing our ability to do damage.


very very poor way to increase burst though

[Ascal]

aight, it may last far long but, i want you guise to brainstorm 1 thing for me- why the hell did blizz give semi-ms to spriests and frostmages?
i may be ok with priests, but mages???

the were not viable enough in 3vs3....

It's not a comparison. I wasn't making a comparison. I was making an example as to what burst damage is. It is NOT just having a spell/ability that does lots of damage in a single blow. (Ex, Chaos Bolt hitting for 10k+ is not considered burst because you don't get it instantly or very quickly at all) Ret paladin's do not have any ability that does MORE damage if said debuff was applied, LIKE chaos bolt does x amount more damage if the target is affected by Immolate. Shaman's, same thing, if the target is effected by Flame Shock, Lava Burst does more damage.

There is nothing Ret's need to apply to their target first in order for their other abilities to substantionally more damage.

You're talks about applying the stackable debuff from only white it's a different topic of WHEN to use WHAT abilities, which all classes have those decisions in PvP.

I was talking about SoV. And yes seal procs as well as Judgements are substantially higher using SoV IF it is stacked 5 times.
Also i think you and me have a different definition for the word burst.

example(just making numbers up):
A Ret constantly attacks a priest for a period of 6 seconds(4 globals). He hits for 2k every global for a total of 8k dmg.
A Lock runs around in a circle for 4.5 seconds and then decides to cast a CB at the Priest. It hits for 8k dmg.

Both did 8k dmg in 6 seconds. still, in my opinion, we'd consider the Lock's damage burst and the Rets sustained.

[Ascal]

frostmages were not viable in 3v3?

just being sarcastic
i don't know why frostmages needed ms, i really don't. never played a frostmage though.

[dyce09]

conclusion is - rets dont have burst.
just as you said.
kkthxbie.

English a second, third, forth... language for you?

Having Burst does NOT mean having a spell/ability that does 10k+ damage.
Burst IS being able to do LOTS of damage with little to no RAMP UP time.
Paladin's have lilttle to no RAMP UP time... therefore have BURST damage!

[Styria]

example(just making numbers up):
A Ret constantly attacks a priest for a period of 6 seconds(4 globals). He hits for 2k every global for a total of 8k dmg.
A Lock fears the priest and spams /rofl for 3 seconds, then decides to cast a CB at the Priest. It hits for 8k dmg.

fixt

OT:the rets damage will be absorbed by discbubble while warlocks will not in this situation, therefore the warlocks burst will be more effective.

[Ascal]

Having Burst does NOT mean having a spell/ability that does 10k+ damage.

that quote is almost sig worthy.

Burst IS being able to do LOTS of damage with little to no RAMP UP time.
Paladin's have lilttle to no RAMP UP time... therefore have BURST damage!

you mean like destro locks do? and don't bring up that 10% immolate buff again. we loose far more dmg. not using sov. guess why we don't? it's ramp up time is too frigging long. it's like using CB without immolate but ten times worse.

[dyce09]

the were not viable enough in 3vs3....

I was talking about SoV. And yes seal procs as well as Judgements are substantially higher using SoV IF it is stacked 5 times.
Also i think you and me have a different definition for the word burst.

example(just making numbers up):
A Ret constantly attacks a priest for a period of 6 seconds(4 globals). He hits for 2k every global for a total of 8k dmg.
A Lock runs around in a circle for 4.5 seconds and then decides to cast a CB at the Priest. It hits for 8k dmg.

Both did 8k dmg in 6 seconds. still, in my opinion, we'd consider the Lock's damage burst and the Rets sustained.

But this was based from your made up numbers, I can make it look completely different if I did what you did and 'made up numbers'

A Ret constantly attacks a priest for a period of 6 seconds(4 globals). He hits for 5k every global for a total of 20k dmg.
A Lock runs around in a circle for 4.5 seconds and then decides to cast CB at the Priest. It hits for 8k dmg.

See, my way looks like Ret's have tremendous damage over the lock. In order to use an 'example' like this, you have to use accurate numbers or they are sckewed to favor your initial point.

Paladin's do max damage with their abilities whether it's the first ability they use in their rotation or the last. A Lock has to use Immolate BEFORE Chaos Bolt to get max damage from that ability. RAMP UP!

If you would like a different example, a rogue dealing varying damage based on the combo points on the target. DK's needed diseases applied first.... so on and so forth.

[Ascal]

*snip*

i was using made up numbers because i tried to explain the concept of burst.

in my example both lock and ret did equal amounts of dmg over the same time period. it was just distributed differently.

[Banzubie]

But this was based from your made up numbers, I can make it look completely different if I did what you did and 'made up numbers'

A Ret constantly attacks a priest for a period of 6 seconds(4 globals). He hits for 5k every global for a total of 20k dmg.
A Lock runs around in a circle for 4.5 seconds and then decides to cast CB at the Priest. It hits for 8k dmg.

The numbers arent the important part, the point was how they dealt their damage.

Edit: Doh I am to slow.

[Joigahdenn]

Hallow is either trolling the hell out of you, or just lacks the basic skills to grasp that there is a give and take from every class and the game CANNOT be balanced about 1v1.

@Hallow - I play a rogue, Mut/Prep for PvP, you know what would make my life a hell of a lot easier? Shadowstep in every spec and a vanish that worked properly. You know why I want those tools? BECAUSE I SUCK AT PVP AND IT IS EASIER TO SAY I WANT THOSE THAN IT IS TO LEARN HOW TO PVP WELL!!!! What you're failing to realize is that if you got the tools you asked for, you'd still suck (2k is not good fyi, its decent) because you'd still only being doing half of what you could be with the tools you have available. Oh, and they would have to give all kinds of 'caster buffs' to all the other casters asking for caster tools. You = Massive failure at logic, sir.

[Copain]

no.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=47270
a 10% is a real difference hur-hur.

Assume the Chaos bolt does 100% Damage, then 110% thanks to the Immolate. A Paladin will (basically) always do 110% Thanks to no pre-required attacks (which can eat up both mana, and time, and since it has a cast time, that's time YOU, the Paladin, should be closing in with). Also, you can hit for ~150%+ thanks to a seal proc.

The point is. You deal max damage without having to essentially setting up someone's debuffs and risk it getting removed for less damage.

still not an accurate comparison.

Rets have to chose between doing a third/quarter less damage(just guessing, don't have any numbers) or stacking a debuff only applied on autohit 5 times to do full damage.

Locks have the choice of either applying a debuff with a 1.5 second cast time or doing 10% less damage.

You don't use SoV in PVP... And that's not true. You'll do full damage wtih your normal attacks, Seals count as their own damaging attack.

not to mention you cant cast loh and buble in a row but, if you really say that healing to full is a fight-reset , then those pesky priests and druids out there are masters of fight resets.
and mages.
and dk's.
and stealth-bandage rogues.
and bmaster trinket+frenzyregen warriors.
~_~

Mages, sort of, if you let them invis away, evocation should be what you're stopping them from using with your attacks. And It's not an instant like LoH, they have to stand still.

DK's, how? They have some HP returns but it's not a full, and it cost them Damage by them losing runes.

Frenzy Regan = 10%(?) of HP, not 100%, and it's a HoT, it also consumes the enrages they need to boost damage.

conclusion is - rets dont have burst.
just as you said.
kkthxbie.

Burst damage is being able to pump out a lot of hits, without having to cast (with a CAST BAR), wait for a CD (A big one), casting dots so they tick mid combo, or having to build a stacking debuff (Think IMP scorch) (SoV doesn't count, it's not the PVP deal :P).




And btw, if you guys really can't hit for more than one Warlock spell, you are bad. There is no other statement. Bad. I'm a prot and in Four GCD's I could and HAVE hit a lock for more than his one chaos Bolt.

[Ascal]

The point is. You deal max damage without having to essentially setting up someone's debuffs and risk it getting removed for less damage.

You don't use SoV in PVP... And that's not true. You'll do full damage wtih your normal attacks, Seals count as their own damaging attack.

Again, we would if we could. But the ramp up time is too long and thus we don't. We delibaratly do less damage to have less of a Ramp-up time. Similar to a warlock but worse. So we use SoR. While that dmg. is instant, it's not bursty by any stretch unless we:

wait for a CD (A big one)

you mean like wings? Aka the only shot we have at killing a healer?

Burst and sustained dmg. differ in the DISTRIBUTION of DAMAGE over A GIVEN PERIOD OF TIME. Hitting for 8k and then not being able to hit for the next 4.5 seconds or hitting for 2k dmg every 1.5 seconds provide the SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE. Yet the first example would be considered more bursty.

Mages, sort of, if you let them invis away, evocation should be what you're stopping them from using with your attacks. And It's not an instant like LoH, they have to stand still.

DK's, how? They have some HP returns but it's not a full, and it cost them Damage by them losing runes.

Frenzy Regan = 10%(?) of HP, not 100%, and it's a HoT, it also consumes the enrages they need to boost damage.

You mean like bubble? Our only defensive mechanism in PvP? Not only does it half our dmg while under the effect of it, no, it prevents us from popping our wings for half a minute! And any decent priest or warrior will have it dispelled in 3 seconds. Tell me any other survival CD, beside mage iceblock, that has this kind of strings attached. And LoH, putting aside that it has a 15 minute CD and can't be used in arena anyway robs us of every other survival CD in our repertoire.

Burst damage is being able to pump out a lot of hits, without having to cast (with a CAST BAR), wait for a CD (A big one), casting dots so they tick mid combo, or having to build a stacking debuff (Think IMP scorch) (SoV doesn't count, it's not the PVP deal :P).

AGAIN: Burst damage consist of three aspects.

1.) As you stated being able to pump out dmg. instantly. Aka: Bursty target swaps. I give you that leaving out SoV, our dmg, is INSTANT
2.) Being able to do frontloaded dmg. We Rets don't.Destro Locks do. End of discussion.
3.) BEING ABLE TO DO SOME FRIGGING DAMAGE AT ALL. With Wings, we Rets are respectable damage dealers, sometimes even being able to kill a target without any form of MS. This rests solely on the hands of Wings though. Because any Healer can just stand there and turret heal all day for a minute as soon as Hammer and Repentance have been used unless your partner does something about it.



And once more: I specifically let Ret and Lock deal the EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE TO EXPLAIN THE CONCEPT OF BURST.
And of course any decent Lock will not just cast once every 4.5 seconds....

So, are you telling me Rets deal more dmg. than Destro Locks? If so, i'd be interested in seing some data on that, cause i can't imagine it being true.

[Swampmoose]

This should be stickied.

[Aildaris]

Burst damage is being able to pump out a lot of hits, without having to cast (with a CAST BAR), wait for a CD (A big one), casting dots so they tick mid combo, or having to build a stacking debuff (Think IMP scorch) (SoV doesn't count, it's not the PVP deal :P).

Well that doesn't make sense. By your definition of "burst" casters are pretty much incapable of "burst" because they have cast bars. Is that about right?

Now I haven't PvPed in awhile (since TBC to be honest) but I know what is what isn't burst. Burst is doing as much damage as possible within a short time frame. It doesn't mean doing your highest damage possible, it just means doing your highest possible damage as fast as you can. The most powerful spell, IE; the one that causes the most instant damage in a retadins arsenal is judgment, and to bring it to its full power you need 5 stacks of SoV. But to put 5 stacks of SoV you need to melee hit the target which takes about 15 secs to apply. Therefore, you are right SoV is not our PvP seal because it is not capable of "burst".

But here is where you are wrong. You said that having a cast means you don't have burst, but that's wrong. Burst is doing the your highest damage within a small time frame. A lock casting immolate and then CB is burst because they are doing their highest damage possible within a small time frame.

As you see a retadins "burst" is quicker than a locks because he doesn't have to cast anything, like you said, but the locks burst is higher damage because he doesn't have to sacrifice damage for his burst unlike a retadin.

All classes have different ways of bursting, casters have cast time on their burst because they are ranged and therefore have the time, and because their burst does more upfront damage. Melee don't have cast times on their burst because they need to go through the trouble of reaching their target first. Plus various classes have different spells, blink, iceblock for mages, fears and that port spell (forget what it's called) for locks ect, ect.

I am not going to side with anyone on this PvP matter because I haven't PvPed in forever, but I am pointing out flaws in your definition of "burst".

[Copain]

Again, we would if we could. But the ramp up time is too long and thus we don't. We delibaratly do less damage to have less of a Ramp-up time. Similar to a warlock but worse. So we use SoR. While that dmg. is instant, it's not bursty by any stretch unless we:you mean like wings? Aka the only shot we have at killing a healer?

Actually I meant a Cooldown as in something that has a much longer cooldown. Think something like a Rogue's preparation.

And Seals count as a new spell entirely. Locks get bonus damage added to Chaos Bolt by adding Immolate. Your Crusader Strike does full damage regardless. And it gets a double dip with seals (Though I seem to keep hearing that it doesn't proc with seals, so whatever).

Burst and sustained dmg. differ in the DISTRIBUTION of DAMAGE over A GIVEN PERIOD OF TIME. Hitting for 8k and then not being able to hit for the next 4.5 seconds or hitting for 2k dmg every 1.5 seconds provide the SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE. Yet the first example would be considered more bursty.

A Paladin has instant cast, meaning once he's on someone, he can hit them with all his attacks right away and be done with it. Yes they have a cooldown, but at that time the mage or such is running away, so you can catch up with a stun, hit him again with all your attacks, and rinse and repeat; at times, such as with wings and some crits, you can kill people then and there, right away (Though unlikely in arena). If a caster get's someone out of range while they're casting something, then the attack goes bye bye right then and there.

You mean like bubble? Our only defensive mechanism in PvP? Not only does it half our dmg while under the effect of it, no, it prevents us from popping our wings for half a minute! And any decent priest or warrior will have it dispelled in 3 seconds. Tell me any other survival CD, beside mage iceblock, that has this kind of strings attached. And LoH, putting aside that it has a 15 minute CD and can't be used in arena anyway robs us of every other survival CD in our repertoire.

First off, LoH counts. You can't say "Oh Bubble counts but we can't do anything for 30 secs" and then say "Oh LoH can't count because we can't use any other survival CD" It's the same effect as bubble. You can get a lot more use out of LoH than bubble half the time.

Second, I fail to see how an instant FoL Crit that will then heal for more doesn't count as a Defensive ability. Mind telling me how cleansing a stun on your Allies doesn't count as defensive either? Toss in a sacred shield depending on the situation. And hell, why don't we toss in HoF while stunned?

You HAVE defensive abilities, you just don't have tons that are the size of bubble. If we had a ton of CD's that were as strong as bubble it would be stupid ridiculous.

AGAIN: Burst damage consist of three aspects.

1.) As you stated being able to pump out dmg. instantly. Aka: Bursty target swaps. I give you that leaving out SoV, our dmg, is INSTANT
2.) Being able to do frontloaded dmg. We Rets don't.Destro Locks do. End of discussion.
3.) BEING ABLE TO DO SOME FRIGGING DAMAGE AT ALL. With Wings, we Rets are respectable damage dealers, sometimes even being able to kill a target without any form of MS. This rests solely on the hands of Wings though. Because any Healer can just stand there and turret heal all day for a minute as soon as Hammer and Repentance have been used unless your partner does something about it.

1) Nothing to argue with here I guess? Sorry you have to switch seals for different things?
2) I like this argument "I'm right, you're wrong, that is all."
3) First: Ret's do damage just fine.
Two: Anyone has trouble with healers, hence why they are nerfing healing and want to change it in cata.
Three:I'm pretty sure if you're a high rated team your partner WILL do something about it.

And once more: I specifically let Ret and Lock deal the EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE TO EXPLAIN THE CONCEPT OF BURST.
And of course any decent Lock will not just cast once every 4.5 seconds....

No, but the spell used as an example about how OP they are against Pallies has a 12 sec CD by default, with a 2.5 Sec CD, making it about 14.5 secs before they can use it again, and they have to worry about being stopped by stuns/silences/pushback from attacks/ect. If you pop your instants, your "Downtime" is cleansing a debuff to help the team, healing with instant (if it's procced), or doing something else to help out.

So, are you telling me Rets deal more dmg. than Destro Locks? If so, i'd be interested in seing some data on that, cause i can't imagine it being true.

It's pretty obvious that one Chaos bolt isn't going to beat all of your attacks combine in damage, unless you're dealing 1K Damage per with no seal procs..?

If Paladin is the "Worst class of PVP" you seem to be making it out to be, then stop playing it. It's obvious that you'd still play it for a reason.

Text

The thing is, I don't consider dealing damage to me over a long period of time, be it more damage, to be burst. Take a mage for example. In BG's his scorch can be effective and hit fairly hard. But if he spams it I've got plenty of time to react to it. If he pops his Water Ele, I can seee it and know that I should do something. Mirror Image? Same.

The same goes for most casters. When you're being set up for a bigger attack, such as the Lock's Chaos Bolt (With immolate, and possibly other DoTs), then you know it and have time to react to it.

With a Paladin's abilities, if he comes up to you and slams you, then it's unlikely a clothy is going to get away before a few hits go off, and if he stands still to cast (As his instants typically have a CD or don't deal much damage (Such as a mage's ice lance, which is more of a finisher IMO), then you catch right up again, getting within range for spells and can unleash two in the time he's got one off.


I wouldn't really consider Iceblock a CD that deals with catching people, and since the Paladin spells are instant, he can't go "Oh, I'm about to be hit by this, so I'll Iceblock to negate it."



That's my thoughts on burst.

[Ascal]

Actually I meant a Cooldown as in something that has a much longer cooldown. Think something like a Rogue's preparation.
so basically just prep, cold snap and heroism? or am i missing something? so you are telling me that both rogues and mages absolutely rely on prep or cold snap to score a kill? i might agree with you on heroism, but thats kind of situation specific.

And Seals count as a new spell entirely. Locks get bonus damage added to Chaos Bolt by adding Immolate. Your Crusader Strike does full damage regardless. And it gets a double dip with seals (Though I seem to keep hearing that it doesn't proc with seals, so whatever).
If you don't except seals( i still don't know why you wouldn't but w/e)then look at judgement. an ability that is completely reliant on which seal we use at that moment.
A Paladin has instant cast, meaning once he's on someone, he can hit them with all his attacks right away and be done with it. Yes they have a cooldown, but at that time the mage or such is running away, so you can catch up with a stun, hit him again with all your attacks, and rinse and repeat; at times, such as with wings and some crits, you can kill people then and there, right away (Though unlikely in arena). If a caster get's someone out of range while they're casting something, then the attack goes bye bye right then and there. i'm not so sure what you are trying to say. we can't attack either if someone is running out of range. and it's not like that caster can't immediately start casting again. also, not being able to cast due to range actually puts them out of harms way. you can't kill but you also can't be killed.


First off, LoH counts Well in arena it doesn't but if you want to focus on BG's.... You can't say "Oh Bubble counts but we can't do anything for 30 secs"Yes I can, I just did. Let me do it again. Bubble puts a 30 second CD on Wings. and then say "Oh LoH can't count because we can't use any other survival CD" It's the same effect as bubble Not true. It doesn't cleanse debuffs and doesn't prevent you from immediatly being focussed again. Depending on the situation you can even let a careless Lock waste his CB CD casting it against your bubble. You can get a lot more use out of LoH than bubble half the time Again, in Arena you can't. Also LoH doesn't posses bubble's escape potential. In 1vs1 situations i agree though.

Second, I fail to see how an instant FoL Crit that will then heal for more doesn't count as a Defensive ability. You mean that 3k crit you get if you are MS'd? Real Helpful. It's not like FoL crits that often anyways. And a 150/s Hot is really gonna make a difference. It's not like it Mind telling me how cleansing a stun on your Allies doesn't count as defensive either?Ironically, the only stun we can cleanse from our allies is Hammer. Toss in a sacred shield depending on the situation.That's a more valid point. It's nice to have. Not that strong but "fine" and i actually forgot that one when complaining over LoH taking all our defenses away from us. And hell, why don't we toss in HoF while stunned? That point is kinda valid. I say kinda because it "just" get's you out of stun. You'll still take the same amount of damage(not counting imp kidney). I know you can attack that pesky rog and maybe he'll have to flee but maybe he'll just disarm you and keep nuking the living shit out of your unfortunate plate backside.


You HAVE defensive abilities, you just don't have tons that are the size of bubble We have none in the size of bubble. except for bubble. If we had a ton of CD's that were as strong as bubble it would be stupid ridiculous. Cloak, Evasion, Disarm, Vanish,Prep(both offensive and defensive)? Block, Invis, Mirror Image(to an extent), cold snap(same as prep)?
1) Nothing to argue with here I guess? Sorry you have to switch seals for different things?
2) I like this argument "I'm right, you're wrong, that is all." But in my opinion, I am. It's not like you are giving me reasons why i'm wrong. In all honesty, can you tell me that Locks have less frontloaded dmg. than Rets?
3) First: Ret's do damage just fine. Didn't say it wasn't "fine".
Two: Anyone has trouble with healers, hence why they are nerfing healing and want to change it in cata. Imho warriors and rogs don't have nearly as much trouble as rets or enhancer shamen
Three:I'm pretty sure if you're a high rated team your partner WILL do something about it. So all of a sudden we are bringing arena into this? So which aspect of PvP are you talking about? Arena? BG's? Both?

No, but the spell used as an example about how OP they are against Pallies again, and hopefully for the last time: that example didn't mean anything, anything at all. i was just trying to explain the concept of burst. maybe i should have called the ret "bob" and the lock"steve" instead of picking classes as examples. has a 12 sec CD by default, with a 2.5 Sec CD, making it about 14.5 secs before they can use it again, and they have to worry about being stopped by stuns/silences/pushback from attacks/ect. If you pop your instants, your "Downtime" is cleansing a debuff to help the team, healing with instant (if it's procced), or doing something else to help out. well, that and our globals and ability cooldowns. still, this is all very dependant on specific situations, so let's not get into this.

It's pretty obvious that one Chaos bolt isn't going to beat all of your attacks combine in damage, unless you're dealing 1K Damage per with no seal procs..?
again: an example. also: it's not like the lock would just cast CB and then wait for the CD. So again: if you have any proof or data that Ret's do more damage than Destro locks please post it. Of course I don't have any data to support that Locks do more, that is why i just placed them at about the same level of damage.

If Paladin is the "Worst class of PVP" you seem to be making it out to be, then stop playing it. It's obvious that you'd still play it for a reason. If have never said that Paladins are the worst class in PvP, so please stop using quotations if there is no quote involved. I'm just sick and tired of so many bad players demanding nerfs for Pallys because they are WAAAAY TOOO OP. Or because their Warrior got owned in a BG facing a Ret in 1vs1 who used LoH and i'm sorry, but that's what you sound like at the moment.





The thing is, I don't consider dealing damage to me over a long period of time, be it more damage, to be burst. Take a mage for example. Well i don't either. That's kind of my point. In BG's his scorch can be effective and hit fairly hard. But if he spams it I've got plenty of time to react to it. If he pops his Water Ele, I can seee it and know that I should do something. Mirror Image? Same.

The same goes for most casters. When you're being set up for a bigger attack, such as the Lock's Chaos Bolt (With immolate, and possibly other DoTs), then you know it and have time to react to it. Well of course. If a any caster casts something you always know when and what he is going to do. Same with Rets. If you stand next to him, you know he's going to hit you. Does it really make a difference whether he hits you with DS or CS? Apart from a minimal difference in damage

With a Paladin's abilities, if he comes up to you and slams you, then it's unlikely a clothy is going to get away before a few hits go off don't let him get near you in the first place... also: abilities like blink and DC:S are useful for getting away..., and if he stands still to cast (As his instants typically have a CD or don't deal much damage (Such as a mage's ice lance, which is more of a finisher IMO), then you catch right up again, getting within range for spells and can unleash two in the time he's got one off. So what's your point? Melees should not be able to get into melee range?


I wouldn't really consider Iceblock a CD that deals with catching people i have rarely seen a pally bubbling at full health just for the purpose of catching me., and since the Paladin spells are instant, he can't go "Oh, I'm about to be hit by this, so I'll Iceblock to negate it." Well, is there really need for it? Ret damage is damage. We don't have huge differences in damage between our abilities, except for maybe judgement. Our damage is pretty predictable. And if you see the ret popping wings, of course you know he is going to try to burst you down. so you CAN react accordingly.



That's my thoughts on burst.

[Requital]

This thread is great comedy, People that don't know what the inside of the Arena looks like arguing about what Paladins do and do not need.

Pretty good summary Ascal.

[zcks]

The thing most people forget about paladin defensive utility is that it is a magic effect & thus becomes nullified as long as there is a hunter, shaman, priest, mage, or felhunter around to dispel it or a priest/warrior in the case of divine shield.

Really in the end it is unlikely prot & ret will get any new tools as long as they have divine shield & can heal as well as they do. & if you think about it if they took away divine shield from ret & prot specs in favor of giving them offensive utility like interrupts & some type of sprint ability they would be much better off.

[Copain]

I'd bother respond to Ascal, but considering you can't do quote properly, it's too much of a pain to argue with you =/.

One part though

First off, LoH counts Well in arena it doesn't but if you want to focus on BG's.... You can't say "Oh Bubble counts but we can't do anything for 30 secs"Yes I can, I just did. Let me do it again. Bubble puts a 30 second CD on Wings. and then say "Oh LoH can't count because we can't use any other survival CD"It's the same effect as bubble Not true. It doesn't cleanse debuffs and doesn't prevent you from immediatly being focussed again. Depending on the situation you can even let a careless Lock waste his CB CD casting it against your bubble

Don't be stupid. Understand the meaning of the sentence. BOTH BUBBLE AND LAY ON HANDS DO NOT LET YOU USE AW FOR THIRTY SECS. I figured it was common sense on what I was saying, and I stopped reading after you FAILED to realize that.