Arcane is behind FFB in single target dps?

[Chaonar]

Hello everyone.

It's commonly accepted that nowadays arcane mages do dps that is far superior to any other mage spec (speaking single target). Even more, it was said so starting 3.1, and the difference between arcane and ffb is expected to grow as gear gets better.

The question is, I see ffb doing the same dps, if not better, than arcane, and want to find out/discuss why.

The data below is from a series of dummy tests in IF. And before somebody jumps in yelling "dummies are not real dps and you should test in raid": I do realize that dummies provide some synthetical numbers. However, I do believe that dummies are ok to compare different specs or different pieces of gear.

The test conditions were:
- Grandmaster's (not boss) dummy was used
- The only buffs are arcane intellect and molten armor. No food, flasks or external buffs were used.
- In each spec the dummy was dpsed until oom, using mana pots and mana gems, but not evocation
- In each spec the test was conducted 5 times
- The gear was exactly the same for each spec
- I did not use any cooldowns, either from trinkets or built-in abilities. This was done to remove RNG factor from the final picture. I do plan to conduct another series of tests with all cooldowns.

For both arcane and ffb, quite typical and standard specs were used.

For FFB, the rotation priority was:
- Pyro on HS proc
- Refresh Living Bomb
- Refresh Scorch
- Spam FFB (filler)

For arcane, the rotation priority was:
- ABx4
- Arcane missiles (wherever Missile Barrage procs or not

I used my mage Chaon on US Madoran for the testing (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...adoran&n=chaon). For those who won't go and look up the profile, he's ICC-ready gearwise (i232 mostly, some i245 and better pieces), 34,9% base crit (with molten armor) and 570 haste.

The final numbers were:

For FFB:
average test time: 4:41
average DPS (single target): 3360

For Arcane:
average test time: 3:20
average DPS (single target): 3280

Note that since 2nd dummy is adjacent to the main target and for FFB it would sometimes get damage from LB explosion and Ignite, that damage was already extracted from single target scores (raw FFB number is around 3750 dps).

As you can see, arcane is slightly behind FFB. I would expect arcane to be at least 500 dps better at this point. It's not.

What is the reason? Spec? Rotation? Something else? Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

[Rafflesia]

Hmmm.... I think that Living Bomb would have been hitting off the other dummies, but nevertheless it should or might be better in the next patch with new changes :-*

[exdeath202]

You said the gap would increase with better gear. Your gear is not that great, and the buffs are like having better gear. Add better gear and buffs and arcane will start shining.

[Batsmuggler]

The 1.4 minute DPS cooldowns?

[Deleted]

- The gear was exactly the same for each spec

Isn't that one of the problems?

[zomglol]

using am witout mbar proc is bad mkay...

and according to the gear on your armory it seems to be pretty much ffb/fire gear, neversmelting ice crystal is pretty bad for arcane, and you are using sp+crit gems.

[Shockk]

Was the dummy under 35% life for the duration of your test? If so, your fire spec profits from Molten Fury, whereas your Arcane spec is lacking such a buff.

[Malkhor]

Arcane is missing TTW 12% damage loss right there.
Your priority for arcane is fucked.
And your gear is bad.

[bw13187]

Lol, Torment The Weak anyone?

[Ashrana]

First of all: I do not play a mage at max level, but I do think I could give some advice.

I think by not using cooldowns you are giving arcane a very big penalty, cooldowns are much more important for arcane then for FFB. Also dpsing till oom probably means you spend less time dpsing with arcane then as FFB, since arcane goes oom much faster.

Also looking at your stats I see your gear favors FBB, for FBB crit is very good because of the instant pyroblasts, while for arcane you need a lot of haste, a lot more then you got now.

[Yasuu]

First of all: I do not play a mage at max level, but I do think I could give some advice.

I think by not using cooldowns you are giving arcane a very big penalty, cooldowns are much more important for arcane then for FFB. Also dpsing till oom probably means you spend less time dpsing with arcane then as FFB, since arcane goes oom much faster.

Also looking at your stats I see your gear favors FBB, for FBB crit is very good because of the instant pyroblasts, while for arcane you need a lot of haste, a lot more then you got now.

ITT: Lvl 80 mage outsmarted by non-lvl 80 mage.

Also, QFT

[Ormula]

The difference between FFB and Arcane isn't that great, even in ICC25 gear. However, because Arcane DOES do more damage, DOES have more burst, and IS harder to fuck up, it's just the chosen spec.

[Raidenwrath]

no ttw for arcane (-12%)
no CDs (wtf?)



gear was exactly the same? crit is best for ffb, while it sucks the most for arcane



if you wanna talk about SERIOUS dummy test, then do it with EVERY raidbuff and debuff, cooldowns inclusive

[Chaonar]

OK, commenting to all the first repliers:

- for gap and "bad gear": Arcane was considered better than FFB starting with ulduar gear. This mage's gear is on t9 level. So it should be way past the point where "arcane shines". The same applies to "you need more haste" comment: I have already about 150-200 more haste than arcane mages had in ulduar times.
- for LB hitting the other dummy: read carefully, I've already accounted for that, and around 400 dps is already substracted from FFB numbers.
- no the dummy was not under 35% health, so no bonus from MF is applied to FFB DPS
- to Malkhor specifically: if listed arcane priority is fucked, then which one is not?
- to Ashrana: since I've been measuring dps and not damage done, dpsing till oom sounds fine to me.
- gear: yes the gear is somewhat crit-centric. However, the only option to switch crit to haste is to replace those 6 sp/spirit and sp/crit gems. If I replace them to 6 haste gems, that'd be losing around 90 sp to get 120 haste. Do you really think such tradeoff will give me extra 500 or so dps?
- as for cooldowns, I've already said that I'll do a separate series of tests with cooldowns.
- TTW: agree, but would you expect it to be 100% uptime on a boss fight? If so, how?

[AnnulV]

yes, because tests that do not replicate raid situations are so telling as to what the top DPS spec is in a raid situation.

your rotation is wrong. your gear choice is wrong. your restrictions on mana use are wrong and that is probably the #1 problem with your "experiment" right there.

arcane is still top DPS except for very rare situations (anub togc 25 for example). 3.3.3 may change this! fire gets a huge buff and arcane gets a huge nerf. we shall wait and see what comes of the final patch notes.

edit: also, if you're doing 3.3 and below, you're not playing correctly no matter what spec you choose.

so maybe FFB is better IF you stick to suboptimal rotations IF you use no cooldowns IF you sit in one place IF you don't utilize all DPS talents per spec IF IF IF IF IF.

edit 2: TTW is up 100% on all boss fights, because every single tanking class has a mandatory ability that applies it.

[Deleted]

Before you run a test like that you might want to think about what each spec is , how to play it and what to do...

The main reason arcane is amazing is due to TTW which is 12% damage just from having a tank so if you're testing without this you'll automatically be down 12% arcane also benefits greatly from short cooldowns and rolling these cooldowns which not testing with it basically not USING THE SPEC...
The main point where you fail to realise what you are doing is when you use the same gear ... sigh... arcane gear is very different from fire gear not only is hit different but for arcane haste =>= Spellpower crit is hardly even up there on the stats where as for fire it's the opposite way around...

Not only that but if people say that arcane gets better with gear and buffs (and I know I have both specs & different gear arcane is a bit ahead) then why would you run a test with badly itemised gear for arcane and no buffs ?

I know you're trying to help or something ... but seriously do some research before making such a long winded post that amounts to nothing...

[mike349]

- TTW: agree, but would you expect it to be 100% uptime on a boss fight? If so, how?

Torment the Weak is always up.
Combat Slows that every tank class has will always be up.

Cooldown management and timing of Evocation is large part of Arcane spec, something that isn't simulated in your experiment.

[Twidis]

First of all: I do not play a mage at max level, but I do think I could give some advice.

I think by not using cooldowns you are giving arcane a very big penalty, cooldowns are much more important for arcane then for FFB. Also dpsing till oom probably means you spend less time dpsing with arcane then as FFB, since arcane goes oom much faster.

Also looking at your stats I see your gear favors FBB, for FBB crit is very good because of the instant pyroblasts, while for arcane you need a lot of haste, a lot more then you got now.

Not to speak that he didnt use optimal arcane rotation, also by not using the boss level dummy you disregard a very important diference, arcane has 3% more hit from talents while at higher level those 3% wont matter that much and can be replaced by other talents its still important.
Also, arcane scales more with raid buffs which you dont have.
Also incanters absorption although that one is rather circonstancial.

[Deleted]

- gear: yes the gear is somewhat crit-centric. However, the only option to switch crit to haste is to replace those 6 sp/spirit and sp/crit gems. If I replace them to 6 haste gems, that'd be losing around 90 sp to get 120 haste. Do you really think such tradeoff will give me extra 500 or so dps?
- as for cooldowns, I've already said that I'll do a separate series of tests with cooldowns.
- TTW: agree, but would you expect it to be 100% uptime on a boss fight? If so, how?

do you play a raid in a mage in a raiding setting ? TTW is up 100% due to umm... having a tank... as arcane haste is equal to spellpower at icc / toc gear level's so yes 120haste > 90spellpower (up untill you have roughly 1100 haste ???) ... if you add in cooldowns without taking anything else into effect , arcane probs will creep ahead by a tiny bit , if you take everything else into account then arcane will trumph easily ... like I said ... do some research beforehand and stop making emo posts like the one I've quoted flaming people please especially when there's nothing beneficial from it.

[Giranimo]

Who did you put focus magic on during you test?