ARGH!! - experts PLEASE help me.

[Joelene]

Im having a problem, and i hope u can help.

I cant decide if i should switch to MM or stay at SV.. SV is fun and all but, when looking at the spreadsheats at elitistjerks.com it shows MM as being the best.

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...l&cn=Joekolade - my harmory btw.

Do i have good enough gear for a change, if i ofc. regem for arpen? - ill land on aprox 800arpen when gemming and then i would change the greatness trinket with the http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50198 - ill will then land on about 1400+ arpen when procs. Is it all enough? and is it worth it? what should i else be changeing if i want to go MM? and last, should i wait to go MM untill i have the 1200+ without a proc?

Last but not least, where can i find a GOOD BiS list for MM and SV, pre ICC hardmodes? - i mean, not only a bis list, but something like maxdps.com - but ive been told that the site i unreliable.

thx guys, i really cant seem to find any info that works for me regarding this issue.

/poor grammar. :-X

[Kennpai]

Your dps would increase if you went Marks. Though I wouldn't regem to ArP till you get DBW and about 800-900 passive from gear. Softcapping isn't great to do anymore so regemming just to hit 1400 from a proc trinket would probably be a dps loss.

[Joelene]

So if i stay agil gemmed, and went MM i would increase? - but i thought that the primal MM damage was mosly from physical damage together with the ArP?

[woundofpain]

OK so 3 things

1 with ZOD go for MM, since you have around 500 ArP

2 if you are still uncertain use www.femaledwarf.com

3 gem ArP when you have over 800 pasive ArP

OK now I saw talents so :

Improve arcane shot, move all 3 of them into improved hunter's mark

You are not hit caped so move 1 point from improved steady shot into Focused Aim

if you are doing mainly 10 mans I would recommend the other 2 points from ISS into Rapid recuperation, else move at least 1 point there

Glyphs -

Glyph of aimed shot replace with glyph of serpent ting
Glyph of kill shot replace with glyph of the hawk

And also put gems in all your gear

If you have any other questions fell free to ask

Good luck
Also try to read some more info from here http://elitistjerks.com/f74/

[Joelene]

OK so 3 things

1 with ZOD go for MM, since you have around 500 ArP

2 if you are still uncertain use www.femaledwarf.com

3 gem ArP when you have over 800 pasive ArP

OK now I saw talents so :

Improve arcane shot, move all 3 of them into improved hunter's mark

You are not hit caped so move 1 point from improved steady shot into Focused Aim

if you are doing mainly 10 mans I would recommend the other 2 points from ISS into Rapid recuperation, else move at least 1 point there

Glyphs -

Glyph of aimed shot replace with glyph of serpent ting
Glyph of kill shot replace with glyph of the hawk

And also put gems in all your gear

If you have any other questions fell free to ask

Good luck
Also try to read some more info from here http://elitistjerks.com/f74/

Ok thx alot.. yeah the gems, got the two items yesterday from raid didnt had a chance to gem it

[Blada]

If you want to gem arm pen, first start replacing some of your gear with hit with gear that has arm pen, mainly the bracers and belt. If you have another 60 emblems to spare you could get the leather belt which has 80 arm pen and 3 sockets, and hopefully you get the bracers from the gunship and DBW. If you get these 3 items you will be right where you need to be or at least close to start gemming arm pen and seeing a nice increase out of it.

[Joelene]

Editting out this flame post. ~Icey

okay well i apologize then to the both of u. You obviously cleared some stuff for me, however, when reading the MM guide from the forum here, it 'states' that you can go for about 722 ArP IF you use the frostneedle trinket with the arpen proc also? - is that just complete fail then or?

[Bedhead]

Oh do we not all wish it was just so easy.

You really need to think about your play style before venturing down this path.

Yes MM ArP Hunters can kick out some good DPS. But it's not all about trinkets and gems. ArP is only good for physical shots. SS, Aim, Auto

In MM spec Auto shot acounts for almost 40% of your damage IF you can scoot and shoot. This means stopping while running so that you can get another auto shot off. Just gemming and playing like you are a SV hunter will result in a DPS loss.

You need to think about what type of Hunter you are before just changing your spec.

Try WHU. Frost has some great articals on MM ArP. http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/

Charts and spreadsheets can not predict gameplay/styles. You make your char what it is.

[Lysah]

okay well i apologize then to the both of u. You obviously cleared some stuff for me, however, when reading the MM guide from the forum here, it 'states' that you can go for about 722 ArP IF you use the frostneedle trinket with the arpen proc also? - is that just complete fail then or?

If you can gem ArP to the point where you'll be at 1400 with a trinket proc, the difference between ArP and agility gems becomes minimal to nonexistant. As soon as you hit 1400 with a trinket proc, the value of ArP will drop right off the chart until high levels, so if you can get 722 with half your gems, go for it, but gem agility with the other half unless you can get to a very high passive amount. This has been the way of ArP + trinket procs since the hard cap was reachable with mjollnir runestone. Many hunters will argue with you that it is "not worth it" to gem ArP to the softcap, because in reality, pure agility gemming might be a few points of DPS ahead. However, as I said, the difference is practically nonexistant.

You can gem for the softcap and be just fine. You can also gem pure agility and be just fine. You can only really notice a difference between the two paths at very high ArP levels that approach the hard cap.

[elcher]

ive met many SV hunters that have never tried going MM, when i tell them to they go ahead, try and fail miserably.

MM is not about LnLol, its about watching CDs, trinkets and their allignements while doing your priority as best you can, all the while doing good movement while weaving in auto shots. its "harder" than SV, but its also more rewarding.

please dont just go and respecc and expect better results, go, respecc and PRACTICE on the dummy to achieve around 10-15% more dps on an undebuffed dummy in SW/exodar/darnassus/ BE-town, and then join a raid as MM, until then STAY SV, or you will fall hard on your face and break some teeth.

good day and HF with MM

[Joelene]

ive met many SV hunters that have never tried going MM, when i tell them to they go ahead, try and fail miserably.

MM is not about LnLol, its about watching CDs, trinkets and their allignements while doing your priority as best you can, all the while doing good movement while weaving in auto shots. its "harder" than SV, but its also more rewarding.

please dont just go and respecc and expect better results, go, respecc and PRACTICE on the dummy to achieve around 10-15% more dps on an undebuffed dummy in SW/exodar/darnassus/ BE-town, and then join a raid as MM, until then STAY SV, or you will fall hard on your face and break some teeth.

good day and HF with MM

I know, and thx for the advice.. however it was never my intention to instantly switch and then se improvements.. I just wanted to get some advice on the secrets of the MM-spec, and then try for myself on the dummys to see how it would look, and ofc. practice the rotation..

[Vordie]

More ArP and go MM, that's what I'd do at least.

[Purplenv]

As a SV hunter quickly approaching 6k gs, in a guild with an equally skilled MM hunter, with a slightly higher GS, and all the same major items (DBW,DC,ZoD++) I can do very well at keeping up in the raw DPS fights like Festergut, while also performing higher, or atleast very similar on the higher movement fights.

Festergut this week:
ME-SV @ 10.7k
Other-MM @ 11.3k

PP:
ME @ 7.1k
Other @ 6.7k

BQL:
ME-SV @ 17.8k (first bite, peak DPS during the fight, before biting second player hit over 20k)
Other @ 13.4k (was 3rd bitten, so obviously not a direct comparison)

Toravon:
I don't have recent numbers, but SV does worse here.

Honestly, just plugging in numbers and expecting to see the same increases you have on a spreadsheet, regardless of skill, always fails to take into account fight mechanics.

[Patty]

As its been stated sooo many times before.. The REAL difference between the 2 specs comes down to the person, how much you lag fps lag or whatever it might be.. It also depends alot on the movement in the fight..

I can easily compete with our MM hunters with SV spec if its played right, overall that is.. They do better on some fights.. And I do better in others.. At the moment Im MM to make everyone else happy becouse people tend to trust blindly on what they read on forums.. Which is a Shame really..

[ASO]

As its been stated sooo many times before.. The REAL difference between the 2 specs comes down to the person, how much you lag fps lag or whatever it might be.. It also depends alot on the movement in the fight..

I can easily compete with our MM hunters with SV spec if its played right, overall that is.. They do better on some fights.. And I do better in others.. At the moment Im MM to make everyone else happy becouse people tend to trust blindly on what they read on forums.. Which is a Shame really..

See, but the root of that is, a good player in a mediocre spec will do better than a bad player in the best spec. That doesn't really mean anything and should be obvious to anyone who has played this game.

MM does more theoretical damage than SV. A player equally skilled with good gear will do better with MM, it's just a fact. SV still gets roughly the same amount of overall damage from Auto and Steady Shots:~35% and ~20% respectively, from the parses I'm looking at, the SAME as MM, so you can't even make the argument that SV is less prone to movement. Go look at top parses on ICC fights to back that up if you don't believe me

[Patty]

See, but the root of that is, a good player in a mediocre spec will do better than a bad player in the best spec. That doesn't really mean anything and should be obvious to anyone who has played this game.

MM does more theoretical damage than SV. An player equally skilled with good gear will do better with MM, it's just a fact. SV still gets roughly the same amount of overall damage from Auto and Steady Shots:~35% and ~20% respectively, from the parses I'm looking at, the SAME as MM, so you can't even make the argument that SV is less prone to movement. Go look at top parses on ICC fights to back that up if you don't believe me

Indeed it is..

My point was though however.. The paper's also tend to.. How do you say.. Aim at a perfect world without any lag, player mistakes, that the boss fight is optimal no bugs etc etc.. I do also say that MM is better than survival if its played right, if the person have been playing Survival, in mediocre gear, still got the not so great gear and want to try out MM I would advice him no.. First he would have to learn another shot rotation, and sadly that seems like a very hard thing to do for alot of players out there..

For some Survival might just work better than MM.. I still see good players play Survival and still do enough dps for them self and who ever might slack at that time..

What i went in this thread with at first was, the somewhat elitist mood is more common today, its one spec, and one spec only.. It dosen't take a mastermind to see that MM is the best spec, once you have the gear for it, and as soon as you try something different.. People call you names and whatnot, even though you are pulling your part by far, just becouse they saw it on a forum somewhere..

The OP got the gear to rock a MM build, if he learned to play the spec, he would do more dmg than he does now.. It is a terrible thing to just throw out there however, the knowledge about the person is minimal.. In a perfect world.. All hunters would spec MM and rock away, however, its not a perfect world, and there will be people out there who would perform better with say a Survival spec, seeing as its 2 different specs playstyle wise.

All this with numbers reminds me of the Professor who claimed sweden would take home 24 medals at the winter olympics, 4 of them would be gold, and the reason for this claim was becouse he built a model relying on social, international etc etc studies.. All numbers and % all in a perfect world.. However.. Sweden never got that many.. And they took more gold medals.. Im not saying its the same.. Not at all.. You just have to remember all these numbers people count with, also depend on the other 24 persons in your raid doing there part right.. among several things..

[Garita]

Some other poster gave you bad advice on glyph and spec. You should only take points in HM if you are A) the guy that drew the short straw among guild raiding hunters and B) if you glyph for it. Also, you would have to be raiding with hunters who will not overwrite your mark, otherwise your mark is useless! Basically, specing and glyphing HM is a baaaad idea most of the time. It is a personal dps loss and a total raid dps loss if another hunter is somewhat retarded and has HM macro'd to something or is just a chronic overwriter. If you don't raid regularly with 2 or 3 other hunters who don't overwrite, don't ever glyph or spec Imp HM.

Now, glyhps... You only glyph Aimed/Chim if you are getting UNDER 150 latency in 25 man raids. Otherwise, you glyph Serpent/Steady and either Kill or Trueshot. If you decide to glyph Trueshot you must add /cancelaura Abomination's Might and /cancelaura Unleashed Rage to your Aimed Shot macro to get the benefit. The reason you don't glyph Aimed/Chim is that glyphing them both without very low latency will result in a dps loss. Glyphing them seperately will throw off the nice tight shot "rotation" and result in a dps loss for most hunters out there.

I tend to cast HM then MD right before the pull, cast Rapid Fire, Blood Fury (orc racial) and Call of the Wild, then begin the "rotation", cast Readiness and then cast Rapid Fire again when the first Rapid Fire finishes. Usually, you will be able to use Rapid Fire and Readiness again before the boss dies.

You want to HM and MD BEFORE the fight starts then fire Serpent>Chim>Aimed>Steadyx4 repeat. If you have decent ar pen and crit, you may want to fire Serpent>Aimed>Chim>Steadyx4. Kill Shot is fired first when its up. Since glyphing Aimed or Chim but not both will have them coming of cd at different times, it will be a net loss overall because your "rotation" will be a mess..

Also, macro /cast Silencing Shot to all of your shots. Its off the GCD and will total about 2% of your damage output. You might also include a /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command line to all of your macros. Use Arcane Shot only when you are moving for a lil bit of extra damage.

[Lysah]

Spreadsheets show that the static AP increase from the IHM talent is better for high level hunters than the occasional boost from ISS, making 3/3 IHM and 0/3 ISS better if you raid alone/with no other hunters with IHM.

[Intwine]

MM is not about LnLol, its about watching CDs, trinkets and their allignements while doing your priority as best you can, all the while doing good movement while weaving in auto shots. its "harder" than SV, but its also more rewarding.

Yeah right, MM is not in any way, shape or form remotely harder then SV.
MM is all about the gear, getting your rotation down as good as it gets and hitting your IWIN button 2/4times in one fight (rf/ready/pot/trinkets/racial macro).
And when you use the mod our great hunter moderator has written for you you can even see when your +dmg/crit modifiers are at it's peak and reapply your sting.

The only real challenge you have is finding the "sweet i can stand still here forever" spot or thinking ahead of the pack and use your instant shot time to move to the next sweet spot.

And yes, SV hunters do pop their cool downs at random, use the trinkets when bosses are out of reach and no mobs are in range, waste the BA on mobs that die in 5secs, put scorpid sting on bosses because it matches the color of explosive shot and generally pay more attention to our surroundings because we cba to uphold our priority system because hey, it's all about the LnLOL faceroll.
ow wait...

But MM is a great spec to play OP, the potential damage you can do with is very nice and rewarding.
And gemming arp depends also on what you do besides 25m.

In a 25m raid environment were there is plenty of mana regen around there is no stopping you.
But if you are like me in a somewhat gimped 10man (no replenish effects, no JoW either) then being MM is kinda frustrating for me (spending lots of time in viper) so i went back to agi all around so i could spec MM for 25 and SV for 10.