Tiny Abom vs WFS

[Goregasm.]

I know its been asked before, but im trying to get more current information on this now that more people have Tiny Abom...

I got TAiaJ, it was about 1.9% of my dmg on blood queen/toravon, but it still seems WFS does more for me... i see alot of shamans still using TAiaJ over WFS...

which do you guys prefer?

[Spongy]

Tiny a bomb is better

http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-sh...oot-bis-setup/

FAQs are your friend. Im sure we questioned what was better when people just downed PP but now its kinda a fact

[Tellaria]

You have to be careful with that trinket. Tiny Abom dps value will vary greatly depending on the gear you have.

Yes, the heroic version of the trinket is BiS, but thats when you're also running full BiS gear in all slots. The reason that trinket is so good at high levels of gear is because it scales so well.

At lower levels of gear, its value decreases greatly. If you're in 232 gear for example, TAiaJ will not be a good trinket at all.

WFS will generally out-do TAiaJ unless you are sporting full 251s-264s or higher, but as always the best way to find out which trinket is the best for you is to sim them both, this is especially valid for TAiaJ as its value depends entirely on your gear.

[Spongy]

You have to be careful with that trinket. Tiny Abom dps value will vary greatly depending on the gear you have.

Yes, the heroic version of the trinket is BiS, but thats when you're also running full BiS gear in all slots. The reason that trinket is so good at high levels of gear is because it scales so well.

At lower levels of gear, its value decreases greatly. If you're in 232 gear for example, TAiaJ will not be a good trinket at all.

WFS will generally out-do TAiaJ unless you are sporting full 251s-264s or higher, but as always the best way to find out which trinket is the best for you is to sim them both, this is especially valid for TAiaJ as its value depends entirely on your gear.

Find me a guild full of 232 gear aka toc 10 that has killed festergut and PP. If your lucky enough as a enh shaman to get tiny a bomb already then stick with it. You wont get much better.

Things can only get better.

[Deleted]

I'm currently running a very thin line between where I am now and the crit cap on my Enhancement Shaman. Not good enough for TiaJ to be BiS either. Should I consider finding a new trinket or just go over the critcap?

[Prokenny]

I'm currently running a very thin line between where I am now and the crit cap on my Enhancement Shaman. Not good enough for TiaJ to be BiS either. Should I consider finding a new trinket or just go over the critcap?

What about increasing your hitrating to decrease critcap? its the way to go...

[Edeila]

I know its been asked before, but im trying to get more current information on this now that more people have Tiny Abom...

I got TAiaJ, it was about 1.9% of my dmg on blood queen/toravon, but it still seems WFS does more for me... i see alot of shamans still using TAiaJ over WFS...

which do you guys prefer?

I'll take my shammy alt here for an example.
Having about 5.8k gearscore - mostly 264/251 it has Black Bruise which generally accounts for 2%-4%.. on a standard beat down fight I can usually pull in the bracket of 9-10k. (2% dmg proc)
2% =180 dps (400 if I'm lucky) from the proc itself. Mind you with WFS you'll probably breaching crit cap in current gear as my alt is.
Mind you 1.9% excludes possible windfury fury hits from the extra mainhand atk.
Abom is better unless your duelwielding white daggers, end of story.

[Tellaria]

I'll take my shammy alt here for an example.
Having about 5.8k gearscore - mostly 264/251 it has Black Bruise which generally accounts for 2%-4%.. on a standard beat down fight I can usually pull in the bracket of 9-10k. (2% dmg proc)
2% =180 dps (400 if I'm lucky) from the proc itself. Mind you with WFS you'll probably breaching crit cap in current gear as my alt is.
Mind you 1.9% excludes possible windfury fury hits from the extra mainhand atk.
Abom is better unless your duelwielding white daggers, end of story.

Your point exactly? You are comparing necrotic touch with the abom proc... those are 2 entirely different mechanics, you simply cannot compare them. This kind of napkin maths will never get you anywhere, I will prove it to you in a second.

Find me a guild full of 232 gear aka toc 10 that has killed festergut and PP. If your lucky enough as a enh shaman to get tiny a bomb already then stick with it. You wont get much better.

Things can only get better.

I was obviously taking 232 gear as a example to illustrate my point which was that tiny abom scales with gear. You just can't go and say TAiaJ better than WFS (which was precisely what you were doing) unless you sim both for your current gear.
Saying "things can only get better with TAiaj", while true, is of absolutely no help to the OP, who is looking for a clear answer to which trinket he should use... assuming he has both, he can simply swap TAiaJ in when things actually DO get better and TAiaJ out-performs WFS.



Now since I have a hard time letting people spread this kind of misleading information, i'll just go through the trouble of making my point a bit more clearly:

Lets take my armory: Cromus
As you can see, I'm in a mix of 251/264 gear, wielding 2 ilvl 264 weapons, Black Bruise and Keleseth's Seducer (Note that those weapons are NOT white daggers... :)

I tested both trinkets myself using Rawr and Enhsim, which unlike some of the napkin maths in this thread, are REALIABLE tools to calculate your dps and figure out how good of an upgrade an item really is. There is a guide to help people with these tools on these forums: Rawr and EnhSim Guide.

In both tests I replaced my current Mark of Supremacy with the trinket I was testing. In both cases I was still safely under the crit cap.

Outputs for both tests:

With TAiaJ(264): 10230.48 dps

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM         56.78
efficiency     87.11%

flurry uptime         95.09%
unleashed rage uptime     100.00%
elemental devastation uptime  86.99%
mh enchant uptime       51.57%
oh enchant uptime       50.99%
stormstrike debuff uptime   79.53%
flame shock uptime       79.88%
lightning shield uptime    98.24%
magma totem uptime       61.70%
fire elemental uptime     28.57%

totem uptime          88.19%
gloves enchant uptime     21.10%
ring proc uptime        16.56%
necrotic touch uptime     51.74%


Set bonus uptimes:
Frost Witch's Battlegear 2 piece    25.86%
Frost Witch's Battlegear 4 piece    23.11%

          MRPS without overregen
mana regen     0.00   0.00%
mp5         15.82   6.49%
replenishment    37.62   15.42%
unrelenting storm  0.00   0.00%
judgement of wisdom 95.18   39.03%
shamanistic rage  95.26   39.06%
mana potion     0.00   0.00%
misc        0.00   0.00%
stormstrike     0.00   0.00%

          DPS         PPM    MPS
white        3268.26  31.95%  95.37
windfury      1168.77  11.42%  7.53
flametongue     944.55  9.23%   64.80
stormstrike     450.18  4.4%   5.96   32.82   13.19%
lava lash      343.85  3.36%   6.20   17.07   6.86%
magma totem     439.41  4.3%   2.00   37.24   14.97%
earth shock     386.94  3.78%   4.72   30.49   12.26%
flame shock     252.45  2.47%   2.72   16.60   6.67%
lightning bolt   1170.46  11.44%  9.89   72.48   29.14%
fire nova      273.27  2.67%   4.61   36.38   14.63%
lightning shield  316.62  3.09%   1.15   0.00   0.00%
tiny abomination  140.83  1.38%   7.42
necrotic touch   264.12  2.58%   69.35
spirit wolves    375.78  3.67%   0.41   3.42   1.37%
fire elemental   434.97  4.25%   0.14   2.26   0.91%
 melee       240.34  55.25%  4.57
 fire shield    15.66   3.6%   5.66
 fire nova     114.63  26.35%  2.29
 fire blast    64.34   14.79%  2.36

DPS         10230.48
MPS         248.75
MP2min       29850.56
MRPS        475.93
Out of mana time  0.00%

With WFS(251): 10255.69 dps

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM         52.56
efficiency     88.26%

flurry uptime         96.09%
unleashed rage uptime     100.00%
elemental devastation uptime  88.80%
mh enchant uptime       50.99%
oh enchant uptime       46.32%
stormstrike debuff uptime   81.67%
flame shock uptime       79.88%
lightning shield uptime    98.50%
magma totem uptime       62.25%
fire elemental uptime     28.56%

trinket1 uptime        32.51%
totem uptime          88.71%
gloves enchant uptime     21.09%
ring proc uptime        16.55%
necrotic touch uptime     49.03%


Set bonus uptimes:
Frost Witch's Battlegear 2 piece    25.86%
Frost Witch's Battlegear 4 piece    21.87%

          MRPS without overregen
mana regen     0.00   0.00%
mp5         15.92   6.56%
replenishment    37.86   15.61%
unrelenting storm  0.00   0.00%
judgement of wisdom 89.72   36.99%
shamanistic rage  99.06   40.84%
mana potion     0.00   0.00%
misc        0.00   0.00%
stormstrike     0.00   0.00%

          DPS         PPM    MPS
white        3380.86  32.97%  95.57
windfury      1205.40  11.75%  7.42
flametongue     857.51  8.36%   56.40
stormstrike     473.75  4.62%   5.98   32.93   13.29%
lava lash      368.23  3.59%   6.33   17.44   7.04%
magma totem     459.04  4.48%   2.02   37.63   15.18%
earth shock     412.69  4.02%   4.83   31.19   12.58%
flame shock     260.02  2.54%   2.72   16.60   6.70%
lightning bolt   1155.21  11.26%  9.28   67.98   27.43%
fire nova      298.44  2.91%   4.86   38.37   15.48%
lightning shield  304.97  2.97%   1.10   0.00   0.00%
necrotic touch   247.03  2.41%   60.99
spirit wolves    385.53  3.76%   0.41   3.42   1.38%
fire elemental   447.00  4.36%   0.14   2.26   0.91%
 melee       248.80  55.66%  4.57
 fire shield    15.84   3.54%   5.66
 fire nova     117.02  26.18%  2.29
 fire blast    65.34   14.62%  2.36

DPS         10255.69
MPS         247.81
MP2min       29737.34
MRPS        463.30
Out of mana time  0.00%

I hope this clearly shows that even with ICC10/25 gear, WFS may still beat TAiaJ flat out. In my case, there is a 25 dps difference, which is quite significant. Eventually, I will get past the point where TAiaJ becomes better but I'm not quite there yet.

Again, the only safe way to find out which of these two trinkets is better for you is to Sim them both and compare the results. Any other kind of napkin maths can't possibly correctly assess the value of a trinket like TAiaJ, and should thus be ignored.
Quoting a BiS list and just blindly following what it says like if it was the Word of God will not get you anywhere... think and find out for yourself is always the way to go.

[detramental]

i have been curious about this as well, but my comparison would be Tiny Abom(264) vs. WFS(264).

my 10man is currently doing hardmodes, and we have a few ret pallies just waiting for TAiaG in 25. they usually pull a significant amount of dps on high mobility fights, so i'm just venturing a guess that they will get first dibs.

i think i would be more likely to acquire the heroic WFS. i am currently in mostly 264, with a few 251 that i can't seem to get RNG on for drops (check my armory in my sig).

i'm guessing that WFS(264) will beat out TAiaG in my case...and i may have to eventually stack hit. ugh.

[Fornaw]

i have been curious about this as well, but my comparison would be Tiny Abom(264) vs. WFS(264).

my 10man is currently doing hardmodes, and we have a few ret pallies just waiting for TAiaG in 25. they usually pull a significant amount of dps on high mobility fights, so i'm just venturing a guess that they will get first dibs.

i think i would be more likely to acquire the heroic WFS. i am currently in mostly 264, with a few 251 that i can't seem to get RNG on for drops (check my armory in my sig).

i'm guessing that WFS(264) will beat out TAiaG in my case...and i may have to eventually stack hit. ugh.

You've got a death's choice, if WFS puts you over the crit cap, the Death's Choice proc certainly does.

[detramental]

true, but it's only for the proc duration of DC.
whereas with WFS it would be a static crit strike rating.
i didn't want to gem hit just for a 15 sec proc off of DC.

i've never fully understood the crit cap (exact numbers), but at what point is it highly beneficial to stack hit to accommodate for the crit cap?

[heartlarva]

true, but it's only for the proc duration of DC.
whereas with WFS it would be a static crit strike rating.
i didn't want to gem hit just for a 15 sec proc off of DC.

i've never fully understood the crit cap (exact numbers), but at what point is it highly beneficial to stack hit to accommodate for the crit cap?

Levva adjusted Rawr to factor in the 4.8% crit depression so melee crit in the stats tab will show how much over the soft crit cap you are if you are. Just hover over the asterisk.

PS: The 264 Tiny Abom was a 37 dps loss vs the 251 WFS while the 277 Tiny Abom was a 12 dps upgrade. The 264 WFS was 60 dps better than the 277 Tiny Abom. (using enhsim 1.9.7.1 and in my gear of course)

[Fornaw]

true, but it's only for the proc duration of DC.
whereas with WFS it would be a static crit strike rating.
i didn't want to gem hit just for a 15 sec proc off of DC.

i've never fully understood the crit cap (exact numbers), but at what point is it highly beneficial to stack hit to accommodate for the crit cap?

Short version? There's no way to know without adding a hit gem and simming your gear, elemental devastation makes actual computation of this basically impossible. I've been trying to dump my DC for the same reason, adding more hit doesn't increase my dps, but some of my DC proc is being wasted.

[heartlarva]

Short version? There's no way to know without adding a hit gem and simming your gear, elemental devastation makes actual computation of this basically impossible. I've been trying to dump my DC for the same reason, adding more hit doesn't increase my dps, but some of my DC proc is being wasted.

I think Rawr shows maximum crit with all procs and buffs so it should include ED. If you add death's choice it factors the proc and will put you over crit cap in Rawr. You should be able to see the increase in melee crit in rawr's stats tab when you add a hit gem when you are over the soft cap. I purposefully went over the soft crit cap by 1.55% in Rawr to test. DPS was at 11129.09 when I simmed using Enhsim. I added 2 +20 hit gems and a 20AP/10 hit gem (replaced 3 +20 haste gems) to reduce the amount I was over cap to 0.33% dps increased to 11148.98. I then swtiched the 20AP/20 hit gem to 20 hit to not be over crit cap at all and dps showed an increase to 11153.75. So to sum it up. I do see a dps increase when regemming hit to not be over the soft melee crit cap.

edit: the gear I used was a 264 BIS setup I was working on.

[Fornaw]

I think Rawr shows maximum crit with all procs and buffs. You should be able to see the increase in melee crit in rawr's stats tab when you add a hit gem when you are over the soft cap. I purposefully went over the soft crit cap by 1.55% in Rawr to test. DPS was at 11129.09 when I simmed using Enhsim. I added 2 +20 hit gems and a 20AP/10 hit gem (replaced 3 +20 haste gems) to reduce the amount I was over cap to 0.33% dps increased to 11148.98. I then swtiched the 20AP/20 hit gem to 20 hit to not be over crit cap at all and dps showed an increase to 11153.75. So to sum it up. I do see a dps increase when regemming hit to not be over the soft melee crit cap.

Useless anecdote without more information on your gear. Specifically in this case I'm talking about a trinket that procs for ~7% crit. Rawr's model cannot really do this trinket justice when near the crit cap, it needs to be run through enhsim.

Edit: You added some info about your gear. I'm betting good money you didn't include a DC.

[heartlarva]

Useless anecdote without more information on your gear. Specifically in this case I'm talking about a trinket that procs for ~7% crit. Rawr's model cannot really do this trinket justice when near the crit cap, it needs to be run through enhsim.

Edit: You added some info about your gear. I'm betting good money you didn't include a DC.

My post may help some people the soft crit cap and simming it. I was mislead. If this is just about the trinket. I added a DC sim and it was about a 6 dps loss to gem hit. Was 2.18% over crit cap and gemmed it down to 0.36% in Rawr then and simmed it in Enhsim. Just trying to help. I get bored and I sim and read about simming about 2-3 hours a day 5 days a week.

edit: I kept playing with it. There was a sweet spot sorta. Dropped amount over cap to .98% and gained 7 dps... I'd love to sim your toon if you can link it

[Fornaw]

My post may help some people the soft crit cap and simming it. I was mislead. If this is just about the trinket. I added a DC sim and it was about a 6 dps loss to gem hit. Was 2.18% over crit cap and gemmed it down to 0.36% in Rawr then and simmed it in Enhsim. Just trying to help. I get bored and I sim and read about simming about 2-3 hours a day 5 days a week.

edit: I kept playing with it. There was a sweet spot sorta. Dropped amount over cap to .98% and gained 7 dps... I'd love to sim your toon if you can link it

I have a strict anonymity policy on these boards. I personally feel that people go Ad Hominum too much on the Blizzard boards and I prefer to deny people the option. Suffice it to say I have 18% spell hit because our guild frequently runs without a misery debuff (we do have a boomkin recruit now though), this has pushed concerns about the crit cap back a ways for me. I have a 245 DC which I've been hoping to replace with a WFS, but WFS has never dropped when I run 10 on my shaman (drops when I run it on alts always...). The two rets in my guild, possibly also the 2 mut rogues, will most likely be the first to get TAiaJ because tbqh I've been very lucky with drops and I have basically the best gear of anyone in my guild (we get lots of protector's tokens, and protector's tokens are not in high demand). TAiaJ hasn't dropped once in 6 Putricide kills.

[detramental]

i think i'll also end up going with the WFS(264) if i get lucky this week. the demand for TAiaG is just too great for my current guild roster. after crunching a few numbers with my gear, i should be ok with crit cap...save for one or two hit gems to be on the safe side with procs.

most of the upgrades i'm looking at in 10 heroic are mostly +hit, so that will ease my concern.