The "Stam is all that matters" tanks

[Myssy]

But I have some dignity and I'm always hit capped (for melee special) and way over the exp-cap.

If I'm even slightly beneath what's required on any of these stats I do some regemming =)


Now, the hardcore raiding tanks only stack stam since their only purpose is to stay alive and keep the mob on him, and thus they have their hunters and rogues put MD and TotT on the tank who is currently tanking, which will compensate for the TPS the tank isn't able to generate.

155 hit, 43 expertise... and 9-11k tps on my own. TotTs go to rogue circle jerk and I'm lucky to get one MD on pull. How much tps is needed, if that isn't enough? Or let me re-phrase, how much tps you are able to generate with staying hit/expe capped?

Hit/expe at cost of other stats is just useless in my experience. It seems many people try to keep them capped because they think they need it at cost of survivability, but most never try and see what happens if they're not hit/expe capped. On our first Anub25N kill I had 0 hit

But then again, I'm not hardcore raider, haven't even killed LK 25 yet and 10LK just recently.

[Maniac2]

Pug-only druid tank, stamina stacker, also have dk tank:
FACTS:

1. Pug people like my high HP, its my 2nd Gearscore

2. Stamina scales with kings/motw, dodge/parry dont

3. Stamina helps with magical dmg, armor/dodge/parry only with physical

4. My Tps? Dpsers adapt to my tps or they die + i always have taunt hotkeyed

5. yes, doing only normal raids, with no enrage timers or relaxed ones, so how fast we kill boss doesnt matter really

6. Also got holy pally - i just love stamina stacking tanks, else many of my heals are wasted, and i spam them anyway, whether they dodge or not

For me and other stamina-addicts those are good enough reasons to keep it that way

[Deleted]

I'll repeat myself; EH > Avoidance. If one could go 100% EH, that'd be wrong and your healers would actually go OOM, but besides the Putricide-trinkets there are no items in the game that give pure EH and no avoidance. The worst case scenario you seem to fear does not exist in the game. Blizzard has even stated this will never be the case. Tanks will have enough avoidance. Besides, with the spam-healing tanks get these days, an avoided hit usually results in overheals anyway.

And, again, you can't really chose if you want pure avoidance or pure stamina, except for when gemming. Stamina is still superior, though.

You have 0 expertise and drop hit rating every chance you get? If you don't have any threat issues then I assume you are just running heroics with dps that are pulling about 1.5k. Otherwise you are full of crap. Show me a tank that has 0 expertise and very low hit rating and I'll show you 18 or 19 dps in my guild that will pull threat off of him while popping every threat reducing CD that they have and pallies throwing Salv up on them. Also having 0% chance to stop parry haste is just plain stupid. Maybe try doing some research or go join a real 25 man raid before you start posting jibberish about how 1337 you are with your 2500 threat per second.

I have 0 expertise rating, but 6+3 expertise from talents and racial passive. I'm not trying to boast, but really, we're getting close to a LK 25-kill and threat is not and has never been even a slight issue. As a Warrior I can easily swap Vigilance during mid-fight or Intervene during casts and whatnot to drop people's threat. I barely ever have to, though. If things change sometime during hard modes, I will know why and fixit.

As for parry-hasting in ICC, well, I know little about this. I've seen articles saying there's no parry-hasting in ICC, while other say it's on some bosses and someone else say only a few selective bosses don't have it. As I don't know actual facts and don't find it to be a problem I simply ignore it.

[coolaide2]

You have 0 expertise and drop hit rating every chance you get? If you don't have any threat issues then I assume you are just running heroics with dps that are pulling about 1.5k. Otherwise you are full of crap. Show me a tank that has 0 expertise and very low hit rating and I'll show you 18 or 19 dps in my guild that will pull threat off of him while popping every threat reducing CD that they have and pallies throwing Salv up on them. Also having 0% chance to stop parry haste is just plain stupid. Maybe try doing some research or go join a real 25 man raid before you start posting jibberish about how 1337 you are with your 2500 threat per second.

you do realise the only bosses to parry hasten in ICC is like deathwhisper and sindragosa IIRC? and tbh if your hunters and rogues are playing right threat isnt an issue the only time threat is an issue is if your hunters and rogues are braindead and you have a very unlucky string of misses, otherwise you're fine.

[iglocska]

I have a DK tank currently tanking ICC10/25 (mostly 10 though), and I'm mostly stacking stam!

But I have some dignity and I'm always hit capped (for melee special) and way over the exp-cap.

If I'm even slightly beneath what's required on any of these stats I do some regemming =)


Now, the hardcore raiding tanks only stack stam since their only purpose is to stay alive and keep the mob on him, and thus they have their hunters and rogues put MD and TotT on the tank who is currently tanking, which will compensate for the TPS the tank isn't able to generate.

Seeing as I don't have any rogues/hunters giving me Tricks or MD, hit and Exp are both very important for me to keep the boss on me. =)

My current main is a Blood DK tank, I used to be a resto shammy as well, and I remember HATING healing tanks with 99% stam and that 1 hybrid gem to get the red gem to activate the Meta-gem, and I remember DK tanks being the king of butter-health.

I'm gonna use an example now, I currently have the iL 245 chest T9, if I choose to try to get the chest from Lady Deathwhisper it will result in about 300 more HP than the T10 iL 251 chest, BUT the T10 iL 251 chest has 1k extra armor on it, which is about 100 stam EH (1k EH,( Effective Health)), which mean that I'll be going for the T10 chest for the EH rather than 300 HP. (If you think logically you'll see that I'm actually gaining 700 EH.)

Every stam-addict I've tanked with has been outaggroed my me in split-seconds and actually died before me as they rely 100% on their health, rather than rotating their defensive CD's.

EH>HP

If you need to gem for expertise / hit on a tank with similar gear levels as your DPSers you should focus on getting your rotation / spec right. I currently have 2 well geared tanks (warr + pally) and especially single target threat is never an issue (with or without MD/TotT).

As for the chest, unless you need it for the set bonus (I assume not, since you considered the deathwhisper one?) you could look into the non set emblem one as an alternative. Also has extra armour on it like the T10.

Also, I think that the main argument here is NOT stam vs armour but EH vs avoidance. You're saying pure stam stacking for EH isn't the only way you need armour too - well no shit, no one argued against this. The question was stam+armour vs getting more avoidance from gems + enchants.

Also, nobody cares if you managed to outaggro the other tank or not as an off-tank, what matters is if the DPS has to hold back when he's tanking. Sure, you can beat your chest yelling "I'M WINNING ON THREAT, I'M WINNING ON THREAT" against the other tank that just does the job while making the healer's job easier, but in that case maybe you should do your raids a favour and go back to your shammy. Oh and just because a tank gears for survival doesn't mean he won't use survival CDs :

[Deleted]

I guess it depends on the class.

But classes that can dodge block and parry, stacking ONLY stamina is a absurdly stupid thing to do, avoidance and mitigation are better than taking hits "just because you have the stamina to take it".

My paladin tank has about 40k self buffed, but I have not gemmed or enchanted solely for stamina, i have a lot of dodge and block in there.

Generally the kind of tanks you see in heroics with nothing but stamina enchants and gems, who dont wait for mana, go go tanks are people who usualy play dps and have no idea what a tank actually does, and it shows.

[iglocska]

I guess it depends on the class.

But classes that can dodge block and parry, stacking ONLY stamina is a absurdly stupid thing to do, avoidance and mitigation are better than taking hits "just because you have the stamina to take it".

My paladin tank has about 40k self buffed, but I have not gemmed or enchanted solely for stamina, i have a lot of dodge and block in there.

Generally the kind of tanks you see in heroics with nothing but stamina enchants and gems, who dont wait for mana, go go tanks are people who usualy play dps and have no idea what a tank actually does, and it shows.

Actually it's the other way around, tanks prioritising block are the ones you'll only see in heroics.

Also you pointing out the tanks that can dodge parry and block as of being wrong for stamina stacking in particular makes me think you don't really have a clue about what you're saying

[Alenko]

I guess it depends on the class.

But classes that can dodge block and parry, stacking ONLY stamina is a absurdly stupid thing to do, avoidance and mitigation are better than taking hits "just because you have the stamina to take it".

My paladin tank has about 40k self buffed, but I have not gemmed or enchanted solely for stamina, i have a lot of dodge and block in there.

Generally the kind of tanks you see in heroics with nothing but stamina enchants and gems, who dont wait for mana, go go tanks are people who usualy play dps and have no idea what a tank actually does, and it shows.

incorrect, all thsoe stats you listed have a diminishing return meaning the more you gem/gear for it the less you get from each point of rating, so you are effectively nerfing the amount of a stat you could get from that slot. stam is the only tanking stat that doesn't have a dr on it and is why you pretty much gem all stam. peroid. at any level of content. also because stam is the only stat that scales with raid buffs.

[susaku]

The general rule I take(as someone who mainly tanks random heroics, Death Knight), is that the tier gear I wear, has sufficient defensive and avoidance stats for me tanking usual heroics.
when it comes to gemming: I usually take stamina, unless certain meta-gems require otherwise.

Enchanting for me is more of a gamble, while I tend to as well take stamina, I first look at what avoidance or other stats could use some increase.

But, even though I am managing as tank well so far, stam vs avoidance always bothered me, so.. is the reasoning I have bad?

EDIT:
Tier gear for also includes badgeloot such as Armor Rings, not just the tier sets.

[Unionoob]

You might laugh, but it was ulduar 10. Razorscale adds were ripping him apart. The holy paladin had to LOH him and I had to use pain supp early on. We did end up keeping him up, but it was fairly terrifying. We were doing the achievement and taking 4 adds at a time.

He says armor is useless over stamina because it doesn't make much of a difference. However we have a warrior tank in my guild, who gems mostly stam, but enchants his cloak / chest etc with armor.

So both I and the holy paladin spamming him and barely keeping him up means I'm a bad healer? u iz smrat i kan tel. Read my post. PURE STAM. Not just gems, PURE stam trinkets even though they had no useful proc whatsoever etc.

maybe I am wrong but it sounds like real bullcrap, if those adds were ripping him apart then that wasn't Stamina fault but he was in cloth gear or something.. since in whatever how bad gear those adds doesn't hit too hard.

[conscript]

maybe I am wrong but it sounds like real bullcrap, if those adds were ripping him apart then that wasn't Stamina fault but he was in cloth gear or something.. since in whatever how bad gear those adds doesn't hit too hard.

This. Adding 1-1.5% dodge from a trinket or 7% extra armor from a trinket isn't going to stop a tank getting destroyed like the OP is implying. If they were taking that kind of damage then they were either didn't have a shield equipped or was taking in mail/leather resilience gear. Besides since when do the Razorscale ads actually do damage? Except for the big whirlwind guy they are a complete joke and are usually tanked by your melee dps after they rip threat away. I suspect the tank was standing in fire.

[Deleted]

Actually it's the other way around, tanks prioritising block are the ones you'll only see in heroics.

Also you pointing out the tanks that can dodge parry and block as of being wrong for stamina stacking in particular makes me think you don't really have a clue about what you're saying

I have been tanking since vanilla on Warrior, Paladin and Druid, pretty safe to say I know what im doing, also did i say priorotise?

A tank that does NOTHING but take hits because they dont dodge block or parry IS a bad tank.

[iglocska]

I have been tanking since vanilla on Warrior, Paladin and Druid, pretty safe to say I know what im doing, also did i say priorotise?

A tank that does NOTHING but take hits because they dont dodge block or parry IS a bad tank.

All tanking gear is loaded with dodge + parry, if you gem for it you'll run into heavy DR and your overall survival will not be increased by a lot. Unless you're talking about low gear levels of course.

Block is utterly crap at the moment unless you're talking about heroics (but really who gears for heroics?) - blocking 3k damage from a 20k hit as opposed to blocking 2k won't make a big difference.

As a self admittedly experienced tank, you should know that gearing for avoidance vs gearing for stamina won't mean that tank 1 doesn't avoid just takes damage and tank 2 avoids almost everything. The difference is 5-7% higher avoidance as opposed to a huge difference in EH. So yeah, as I said, tanks gearing for block belong in heroics.


But I'll bite:

I guess it depends on the class.

But classes that can dodge block and parry, stacking ONLY stamina is a absurdly stupid thing to do, avoidance and mitigation are better than taking hits "just because you have the stamina to take it".

So you're saying that for a paladin and a warrior it's not a good idea to stack stamina but for a bear and a DK it is. I'd love to hear your reasoning behind all of this idiocy.

[Deleted]

Strange, I though this discussion was about tanks who ONLY stack stamina, at the expense of avoidance.

The term mana sponge exsists for a reason, its for tanks who dont have the correct gear, but they have stamina so they can get hit and healed over and over.

Here is a tip for you, next time you are in an instance and the tank has a lot of stamina but is not holding agro, ask yourself why.

[iglocska]

Strange, I though this discussion was about tanks who ONLY stack stamina, at the expense of avoidance.

The term mana sponge exsists for a reason, its for tanks who dont have the correct gear, but they have stamina so they can get hit and healed over and over.

Here is a tip for you, next time you are in an instance and the tank has a lot of stamina but is not holding agro, ask yourself why.

Because he doesn't know how to play, simple as that. Nice way of avoiding my question btw. Oh and the term mana sponge kinda died when wotlk came out, but nice try.

[Grguch]

A thread on staminatanks, new stuff :O

It doesn't matter how many times this subject is brought up, the answer will still be the same:
Effective health stacking is the way to go for high end raiding (ICC25+). That means gear with very generous amounts of avoidance and threat stats already built in, gemmed with mostly stamina and enchanted with armor and health.

For any other level of content, balance. Avoidance + Block + EH.

[iglocska]

A thread on staminatanks, new stuff :O

It doesn't matter how many times this subject is brought up, the answer will still be the same:
Effective health stacking is the way to go for high end raiding (ICC25+). That means gear with very generous amounts of avoidance and threat stats already built in, gemmed with mostly stamina and enchanted with armor and health.

For any other level of content, balance. Avoidance + Block + EH.

I don't think anyone gears for farm content and if say totc10 is progression content for you and your guild, then it's all about EH stacking again. Simple as that, if you're one of those casual tanks that logs in every now and then to run a random daily heroic for frost emblems only but doesn't raid (there are plenty of people like this and nothing wrong with that!) then yes, gear for block.

[MrWiggles]

Block is utterly crap at the moment unless you're talking about heroics (but really who gears for heroics?) - blocking 3k damage from a 20k hit as opposed to blocking 2k won't make a big difference.

than how big of a difference could 1k health make? I went from gem for for socket bonuses to pure stam gemming and lost almost 1% of avoidance for 650hp, was that worth it?

[iglocska]

than how big of a difference could 1k health make? I went from gem for for socket bonuses to pure stam gemming and lost almost 1% of avoidance for 650hp, was that worth it?

regearing to a full block build as what I mentioned earlier would be a MUCH bigger difference than 1k HP (I have a block set that I used to use for anub and I lost about 6-7k HP with it).

Also as for the 1% avoidance vs the 650hp, I'd say it was worth it though generally 1% avoidance should equal more than 650 hp.

[Kagonos]

Tanks stack stam because it is the most visible stat to others. People can click on you and see 40K HP, they can't look at you and see 50% dodge. Plus, dodge and all other stats "cap" or suffer from diminishing returns which stamina does not. So with regard to socketing stamina, YES. There are many cases where matching a socket for a stam bonus (or agility as a druid) makes sense. That's another discussion so I won't derail this thread.

Using trinkets like the brewfest ones is just stupid. I'll grant the benefit of the doubt and assume it's an alt or an offspec just to get queued faster, or that maybe they just haven't come across anything better, but NO: Stam at the expense of all else=a fail tank. This is an indication that that player doesn't understand tanking or has fallen into the trap of, low hp=bad tank. Your HP is like a gauge on how progressed you are in a sense since higher gear=higher HP.

But to have an HP requirement is silly and ill informed. How is <30K HP going to make you a better tank? It's not, it'll only give a healer more time to react when your poor avoidance fails you.