Totem of Wrath vs Demonic Pact - A simple solution?

[Fornaw]

Hold on, i was playing elemental/resto from 3.0 to 3.2, and i srsly cannot remember that this has ever been an issue. Spellpower levels have not been high enough to make demolocks a "competition" on this. And honestly, the number of raiding warlocks in a demo-spec was so little that i have never met one personally.
Just wanted to point out that you are exaggerating massively.

Easy: There is no issue that needs to be fixed. While playing in the current content, DP is more favorable, while gearing up, ToW is.
Remember: There's always a bigger buff.

Demonic Pact surpassed ToW if you completed most Uld 25 hardmodes. At the time it didn't matter much because a small buff to a raid that has already downed everything is pretty pointless. Several shaman sounded the alarm at this point, they knew it would only get worse. In comes TotC where the average ilvl of 10 man regular is higher than the average ilvl of a full set of Hardmode Ulduar gear. At any rate given that this was a known issue in 3.1 I would call it an old problem.

No. Get out if you want to make ToW = DP.

ToW also gives crit to every single party member, DP only gives spellpower and (imp s.bolt) crit to CASTERS only.

ToW is crit for EVERYONE.

It's fine how it is

ToW provides the same crit debuff a retribution paladin does. ToW is two buffs in one, just one of those buffs is not anywhere close to another buff which it is supposed to be normalized against.

Demo is lowest DPS spec? Lol, not really.

2.5k dps from searing totem? Wow, you must reall be pro.

As Enhancement my fire elemental does 1600 dps for it's duration. Since that totem scales strictly off spellpower it should be much stronger to an Elemental shaman. 2.5k is not an unreasonable number for the damage it could put out for a well geared elemental.

As a demo lock since 3.0, allow me to say LOL are you serious? Lets talk about giving bloodlust to someone else if we're really going to homogenize everything. I'm not trying to troll you shamans nothin but <3 for u guys, but srsly the buff we bring you guys for is BLOODLUST not totem of wrath, to take that away from meta locks would literally rape the most unplayed spec currently in the game. You guys are saying how you want demonic pact brought in line for totem of wrath, but would you give up bloodlust or share it with another class? I didn't think so. So, if your willing to rape the warlock talent but not share your bloodlust, its the very definition of being a hypocrit. Take what you have and make the best of it, if your not getting invited because "your totem of wrath cant compete with demonic pact" its about time you found a new guild to run with then. "take the player, not the class as long as you have a bloodlust" has remained true this entire expansion, your class is really the only one to avoid the sweeping wave of "homogenezation" thanks to bloodlust, so before you start talking of "sharing or fixing buffs", maybe you guys need to look in the mirror abit and realize you have more then most as far as stupid utility. God forbid someone else has a utility in game that you can't match...

-the meta lock

Demonic Pact was invented so that an Elemental shaman was no longer a requirement to every raid. The fact that Demonic Pact has surpassed ToW to an extent where a Demo Warlock is considered a requirement for every raid should make it obvious why you are wrong here. BTW comparing a 2 spec buff to a 3 spec buff, especially when demonic pact is stronger than bloodlust half the time, makes you look rather like a tool.

[Demonologist]

This is a silly discussion, but I'll hop in anyway.

In order for ToW to be at all competitive with DP there would also have to be some major changes to the Totem system as a whole, since for a great many fights the range on ToW is not sufficient to buff the whole raid. So the ToW mechanics would have to change substantially, DP mechanics would probably have to be nerfed since its not possible for Ele Shams to match an equally geared Demo lock's spellpower, and Totem mechanics would have to be mucked with as well, all in the name of...what?

Really, I don't get who would want this change to happen. Ele shams get a significant boost from dropping damage totems; they would riot if they suddenly had to start dropping ToW again. As my guild's dedicated Demo lock, I get to be middle-of-the pack single target dps and significantly above average aoe dps. I think a lot of people still look at Demo as the bitch spec doing bottom dps in the name of a buff. Go check out WMO leaderboards, theres a couple Demo dps in the top 20 for locks for almost every fight, it can't keep up with aff in single target and spread-out multidotting situations, but its far from a bad spec.

I feel like most of the whining is coming from bad/unlucky locks who got forced into the role by their guilds and feel like crying about it instead of learning to play the spec well. At the moment, Demo is one of the most enjoyable and challenging specs to play in the game, with occasional huge dps payoffs if played right and the added benefit of supplying a truly insane spellpower buff to every caster and healer in the raid. Taking that away just cause a few players feel like they're getting screwed by their guilds would be criminal. Recruit a Demo lock that actually knows the spec and wants to play it well and watch the old one scramble to keep up.

[tacklebox]

pure classes shouldnt provide as good or better buffs than hybrid classes. It ruins the whole reason to bring them over a pure dps. Level the dps or fix the buffs.

[NecropK]

Elemental shamans can still compete in top 5 dps.

This made me laugh

[Horn]

Why not make ToW and DP both increase the player's total SP by 5-10% instead of a fixed amount or amount of the caster's SP?

[Fornaw]

Why not make ToW and DP both increase the player's total SP by 5-10% instead of a fixed amount or amount of the caster's SP?

Mostly because this would be a blanket nerf to caster dps, Demo Locks have more spellpower than almost any other spec of caster.

[Horn]

Mostly because this would be a blanket nerf to caster dps, Demo Locks have more spellpower than almost any other spec of caster.

Erm.. How is this a nerf?

[Shirahadori]

because then people wouldn't get 4-500 sp from DP, obviously. and btw, dp affects both healing and damage spellpower, which is quite a chunk for both healers and casters (and ret/enh) soo it'd be a pretty big nerf.

also dont know if anyone mentioned but ToW's debuff is brought by other classes, (cough ret paladin). its a pretty useless totem in the game right now, every raid SHOULD have a demo lock (at least in 25 man). ele shamans should just be happy they get to use a dps totem instead of a fail buff one

blizzard would probably not want to change the current ToW glyph either

tl;dr totem of wrath is bad and demonic pact is great. deal with it and use your fire dps totems to get more damage, kthx

[thrack18]

Erm.. How is this a nerf?

you probably should have read what he said after the comma

[jswivel]

As a demo lock since 3.0, allow me to say LOL are you serious? Lets talk about giving bloodlust to someone else if we're really going to homogenize everything. I'm not trying to troll you shamans nothin but <3 for u guys, but srsly the buff we bring you guys for is BLOODLUST not totem of wrath, to take that away from meta locks would literally rape the most unplayed spec currently in the game. You guys are saying how you want demonic pact brought in line for totem of wrath, but would you give up bloodlust or share it with another class? I didn't think so. So, if your willing to rape the warlock talent but not share your bloodlust, its the very definition of being a hypocrit. Take what you have and make the best of it, if your not getting invited because "your totem of wrath cant compete with demonic pact" its about time you found a new guild to run with then. "take the player, not the class as long as you have a bloodlust" has remained true this entire expansion, your class is really the only one to avoid the sweeping wave of "homogenezation" thanks to bloodlust, so before you start talking of "sharing or fixing buffs", maybe you guys need to look in the mirror abit and realize you have more then most as far as stupid utility. God forbid someone else has a utility in game that you can't match...

-the meta lock

Bloodlust is an iconic class ability, where as DP and ToW are nothing but talents, therefore your argument fails. Also if shaman were brought ONLY for bloodlust raids would never bring more than one.

[jswivel]

you can do hard modes without meta lock or ele shammie, try it without a bloodlust.

People who say you things like this need to learn to play because its been stated numerous times that 10 man encounters are not designed around having a bloodlust, so if you fail without a bloodlust you just...well...fail

[Mestofiles]

I don't think the solution is buffing ToW to match DP. The reason our dps rises to the point where we actually do more dps than the tank, is when we get the spell power buff and can use a fire dps totem (searing/magma).

My solution: Make ToW a passive talent that applies the ToW effect to all your fire totems. That way, our 41 point talent will actually be a dps increase, instead of gimping us. This would give us the buff we have all begged for, and it wouldn't affect meta locks, since their DP still overwrites the ToW buff.

As it is now, the only way an ele shaman can reach his full potential, is by having a meta lock in the raid.

By merging ToW with all our fire totems, we can get close to the dps we have now, but without having to force a lock to spec demo.

[Amana]

Woah woah woah, calm down people


Demolock is not the lowest DPS spec in raid FAR FROM IT
Having DP and ToW giving both 10% sp will still favor DP as demolock have a shitload more sp than elems, though, it is true, that ToW also provides the marvelous AoE 3% crit, which is really valueable on some aoe parts of the encounters (freya, anub, etc).

Though the SP difference is just one of the two problems ToW has: by requiring you to put ToW down, you can't use any other offensive fire totem. I don't know about your raid, but when I have to put ToW, I get back the middle of the dps meter, instead of the top 5 (depends on fights, but in the best cases). Fire elemental is a HUGE dps boost, and even if having to be in melee to put magma and nova the hell out, it pays. Though, as one of my friends would say, it really changes the gameplay, we're no longer the lazerpewpew turret, and he dislikes these changes. Personally I'd do anything to just maximize my dps, so I'm fine with playing that way with fire totems.

[scormac]

maybe have the ToW have a build in searing totem.

[justandulas]

People who say you things like this need to learn to play because its been stated numerous times that 10 man encounters are not designed around having a bloodlust, so if you fail without a bloodlust you just...well...fail

because all raid content is 10m amirite?! your argument is straight fail here bro. Again, its bring the player not the class AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A BLOODLUST. Your basically saying its ok for my class to have utilitys that can't be matched but no one else should be able to beat mine! Having your cake and eating it too, much? Demo locks r fine, ele shammies r fine, dp and tow are fine. if you think otherwise, your wrong and need to l2p.

[Floreon]

you do know people pvp as sub right? but aside from that since this is a PVE discussion, they definitely dont exist in raids tho, so point taken good sir. you win this round :P

No one actually PvPs as sub. The last I heard of someone going into arena as sub and being successful was shadowdance hero evz, but he's scary and really can't be considered as a comparison against normal people.