We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

[Tyrrandion]

Allright, So I'm one of my guild's 3 raid leaders, and we've been plugging at both ICC 10 and ToC 10 every week (we've just recently set up a reliable raid schedule), and we're gettting much farther into ICC than ToC I'm just perplexed. For the most part it is the same few players (we only have around 12-15 people who are able/geared to raid), and we just can't get past northrend beasts.

Our most recent group consisted of Myself as MT, our two of our regular healers at first (one is a palidin/druid depending on what we need, the other is a disc priest who was mainly on raidheals/mitigation) and after a few wipes we brought in another holy pally for OT heals, our OT was a pug in basically T9, with a decent EHP (deathknight). The rest of the raid was consisted of 1 hunter, 1 lock, 2 DPS DK's, and an ele shammy. Most of the DPS were hovering around 2300 to 2600, on beasts, and our best dps was a frost DK w/ around 5k.

Half of our wipes (still a considerable number, I believe we have it like 15 shots total) were with 2 healers and half the time we had the OT dropping on Gormok, the other half we would drop on the worms. After we brought in the second healer, we got to the worms every time but once, but died every time, we never even made it to icehowl. This is all the farther in ToC our guild has gotten.

For Gormok we were switching at 3 stacks, we did have some issues killing snobolds though. When we did make it to worms, I was on acidmaw and the OT was on dreadscale. I got the full paralytic toxin at least 6 or 7 times during the whole process (about 75% of the time), allot of the time the only person getting burning bile was the OT (we were keeping them separated on the north and south sides of the room).

Now we just had our first Deathwhisper kill last week and had to call it on gunship, but we can't get past northrend beasts, and I just don't know why. It seems we should be having no problems with the first boss of a much easier instance.

I'm not going to link everyone's armory, but here's mine, as MT, may be useful.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&cn=Tyrrandion

Any ideas I can impart upon my raid group would be much appreciated, I had to go do a few shots after our last ToC; it was that bad, I'm hoping with some raid advice we can get through ToC next week. Thanks allot in advance.

[Banzubie]

Well Im pretty sure your talking about Heroic 10 man ToC and not the normal version. At first glance your dps should be doing ALOT more damage

[Sevillian]

If everyone is around low to mid 2000's aside from that DK, then double everyone's dps aside from the DK to start.

[rollo90000]

avr dps we had in toc 10hc was around 6k, On beasts and this is pre rogue buffs with ulduar gear.

our setup was always

war (mt) (avr 30-40k )
dk ( ot) ( 35-45k dk were still a bit OP back then)
rogue (5k-6k min in ulduar gear)
mage ( 5-6k again)
shaman ( enhance) (4-5k worst geared of everyone
ret pala (5-6k)
warlock (5k)
holy pala (3-4k hps)
resto druid (6-8k hps on twins at least)
holy priest (6-8k hps on twins )

this is our rough guides, We recently got dedicated insanity with all 245 and ulduar gear. assign ranged dps perm to adds and have them tanked outside of melee range on first boss.

if you get overrun assign a melee ( ret pala) to help out, Ret pala is safest of all melee due to bubble

snobolds have around 120k hp i think ( dont really remember) but they are easily burned we had them up for 15 seconds max per time. Arcane mage + lock have high burst dmg and they get decimated. On dedicated insanity we assigned all dps to them accept the rogue, In our normal gear we were close to 8k dps by the time icc was released in 10man. ( ful 258 )

if you lose anyone before phase 1 ends your in trouble.

tank deaths shouldnt happen period if your geared. (t9 wasnt readliy avail when we did this the first time )

phase 2 is just a dps race nuke the poison dude then the fire. you can stand them pretty much within 20 yards of each other saves alot of running across the room tank deaths. a warrior on dreadscale makes life easier ( intervene the other tank and free then instantly intercept back saves alot of issues. )

phase 3 is another dps race avoid getting crushed by his charge and claim loot.

fight takes around 7-9mins. ( enrage timer is 10mins) you have 3mins for first boss 3mins for second and 4 mins for 3rd.

10man is about raid stacking in one respect. Your better going heavy melee or heavy caster to scale buffs.

Id say a ret pala and enhancement shaman are required, ( as is a rogue if you want to get past faction champs without getting oblitarated )

hardest encounter is anub hes probably harder than anything but arthas.

GL

[omein]

I sure hope you're talking about heroic. If not you are in some serious need of reevaluating the ability of your raid members to simply....move.

[Cracked]

Time to leave such guild, I would say.

[Herecius]

Well, as much as it's making me cringe realizing that you are in fact talking about the normal modes of ToC and ICC, OP, I'll try to help...

Northrend Beasts is a considerably more 'difficult' (I use the term very lightly) encounter than either Marrowgar or Deathwhisper or Gunship in ICC10. If your off tank is dropping, then you aren't switching stacks on Impale fast enough... or your healers suck. If you're all dropping on the worms, then you need to learn to spread out, and people need to learn to move to the tank with burning bile when they have the poison.

[MrPistachio]

Well Im pretty sure your talking about Heroic 10 man ToC and not the normal version. At first glance your dps should be doing ALOT more damage

Glancing at achievements, no he is not. I heard ToC10 was hard, brah.


First thing I'm gonna ask straight out. Are you tanks taunting off of eachother on Gormok at 3 stacks of impale? >.>

[Aswed]

Did you try... reading tactics?

[Argarock]

jeez, you're actually talking about NORMAL toc 10!?

ok, first.. how did you guys manage to kill 2 bosses in icc!? :O

OT: Replace all your dps'es except the frost DK

2300 -2600 dps is NOT ok! Thats what a newly dinged, not hit capped, lvl 80 char with a blue wep should do...

[Findus707]

jeez, you're actually talking about NORMAL toc 10!?

ok, first.. how did you guys manage to kill 2 bosses in icc!? :O

OT: Replace all your dps'es except the frost DK

2300 -2600 dps is NOT ok! Thats what a newly dinged, not hit capped, lvl 80 char with a blue wep should do...

Lvl70s with blue gear that know what to do can pull off that kind of dps :P

[Deleted]

Ergh, you can kill Lady, but not Gunship?


Gotta be kiddin me

[dexter_984]

Get new people for your guild, seriously. ???

[Deleted]

You can do lady lootwhisper but not lootship? Thats..... interesting, methinks you trolling me bro

[ATTHEREADY]

First thing I'm gonna ask straight out. Are you tanks taunting off of eachother on Gormok at 3 stacks of impale? >.>

For Gormok we were switching at 3 stacks,

[Grundy]

It seems like your dpsers are horrible and probably not using the tactics properly. If you are capable of doing Marrowgar and Deathwhisper gearwise, "lootship" and reg Beasts should be no problem. I'd look for a new guild or better raiders.

[Kreth]

Northrend beasts is a fight where people really need to know their role.

Tanks:
Gormok: Taunt at 2 stacks, not 3. Use cooldowns if you get low.
Worms: Make sure both tanks agree ahead of time who gets which worm. Some groups do "Tank 1 on dreadscale, tank 2 on acidmaw"; some groups do "Tank 1 on the immobile worm (always surfaces first), tank 2 on the mobile worm (always surfaces second)". Doesn't matter which you do, just stick with a system.
Also on the worms, put the more experienced tank on dreadscale (at least at first)-- that tank will need to get people out of the poison debuff without causing too much raid damage. It can be tricky. They should move towards affected people (after dreadscale does his spew attack), but people who get the poison should also run towards them.
Icehowl: Agree beforehand which tank is going to pick him up, but both tanks should get some good threat on him since he stuns the MT, which can make them lose threat. Be careful to run away when he charges someone!

DPS:
Gormok: Snobolds should be your first priority-- tab target to find them, then burn them down. Once all the snobolds are down continue killing Gormok. And be sure to stay out of the fire!
Worms: Your first job is to survive. Don't clump up too much around dreadscale so *everybody* doesn't get the fire debuff all at once, and if you get the poison on you, run to someone with the fire debuff ASAP. If you get the fire debuff on you, don't go close to other melee (even if that means you can't dps the boss... stay alive and don't kill other people!). Let the tanks get a bit of aggro on the worms when they surface, otherwise you'll get killed, since it's an aggro drop. Kill acidmaw first.
Icehowl: Stay alive! Basically that means when Icehowl charges near you, run away very quickly. It might take a few wipes to get comfortable with this... kinda frustrating when you need to kill gormok and the worms to get practice in. Keep at it.

Healers:
Can't really say as I don't play a healer currently.

Raidleaders:
Ask everyone to install DBM. It really makes a big difference.
Get everybody on vent so you can coordinate stuff. It really helps if someone needs their poison taken off in the worm phase.
It might help to ask everybody to watch a tankspot video of the fight, so everybody's on the same page. Takes 10 minutes but can sure save a lot of headaches.


The good news is that the fight after Northrend beasts tends to be lots easier, and as you gear up from running ICC it'll help you here too. Good luck!

[omein]

Ok since we have established you are talking about normal (god help you), you really need to either get new raiders and have someone evaluate you or you need to go one by one through your raiders and see why they are doing such horrible dps.

Please post your raiders armories on here and I am sure we could try to help.

Good luck

[Deleted]

All dps doing 2k, either your gear is about what I would expect people to be wanting uldaur 10 boosts, or your raiders need to learn to play.
Being casual is one thing, being bad is another.

[Celestial476]

DPS needs to pick it up really.