why are people gemming agil still?

[Naivedo]

You don't stack ArP based on your crit percentage, you stack ArP based on your ArP percentage because the more ArP you have, the higher it's value till cap.

Below 400 ArP, agility is best gem. Above 1400 ArP, agility is the best gem.

Armor is a stat with diminishing returns. Meaning: the more Armor you have, the worse it gets in terms of damage reduction percentage. The first 1000 armor are far more valuable, than the last 1000 armor. That is the reason, that ArPen scales better than linear. When you have only a little bit ArPen, you reduce your target's armor only a little bit - but we know that the last 1000 armor are not that important. But if you manage to gather more ArPen, you will reduce your target's armor more and more, which gets more and more valuable.
Short story: ArPen scales better than linear - the more you have, the better each point of it becomes.

At about 400 - 500 ArPen, ArPen becomes the best stat
The exact amount depends on your gear (especially the trinkets). Use RAWR or Toskk to find out, when exactly ArP overtakes Agility. Also remember, that the value of both is very similar at that low lvl of ArP. The difference is extremely small and only gets bigger, when you gather more ArP.
As soon as you can reach these numbers, regemming all Agility gems for ArP gems would improve your DPS.
Our goal is to come as close to the ArP Hard Cap as possible.

And now it's time for mentioning the three ArP trinkets currently ingame:

[Grim Toll]
[Mjolnir Runestone]
[Needle-Encrusted Scorpion]

Wearing two of these trinkets is quite useless since they have a significant shared uptime and then there would be ArP wasted (assuming you've got some ArP on your gear). The goal is, to reach the ArP soft-cap. Soft Cap means: you have exactly 100% Armor Ignore when your trinket proccs.


ArP Soft-Cap: 722 ArPen, if wearing [Needle-Encrusted Scorpion]
ArP Soft-Cap: 735 ArPen, if wearing [Mjolnir Runestone]
ArP Soft-Cap: 788 ArPen, if wearing [Grim Toll]



For clarification, I will try to explain this. Let's say you don't have one of the two trinkets and x is the ArP on your gear (and with Hearty Rhino, the +40 ArP food buff):

x < 400 -> Agility is the best stat, gem for it
400 < x < 1400 -> ArPen is the best stat, gem for it
1400 < x -> Agility is the best stat, gem for it


Now finally Grim Toll drops off Gothik the Harvester and you are lucky enough to get it!

x < 400 -> Agility is the best stat, gem for it
400 < x < 788 -> ArPen is the best stat, gem for it
788 < x -> Agility is the best stat, gem for it


Just replace your soft-cap with 735, when wearing Mjolnir Runestone instead of Grim Toll and with 722, if wearing the Scorpion.


If you are wearing a lot of ICC items and manage to get about 1000 Passive ArP, it's better not to wear one of the 3 ArP Trinkets and instead going for the Passive HardCap!

[Naivedo]

I am a low level Boomkin anyway, I don't have first hand experience.

[Melonberry]

(an almost even smaller note)

Crit suppression CAN be overcome now.

..hawt

It's 76% + 4.8% - 3% - hit% - miss% to be crit capped. 3% is from retpally/eleshaman.

You shouldn't have to worry about it unless you're in 277 gear. I'm not crit capped at 60hit 22exp in mostly 264

[Hinalover]

It's 76% + 4.8% - 3% - hit% - miss% to be crit capped. 3% is from retpally/eleshaman.

You shouldn't have to worry about it unless you're in 277 gear. I'm not crit capped at 60hit 22exp in mostly 264

um...It was my understanding that EJ had figured out that crit suppression was no longer applied. This was mostly due to a bug in Recount that registerd partial resists as blocks or something like that. once that was fixed, the 4.8% "suppression" was no longer applying.

[Melonberry]

um...It was my understanding that EJ had figured out that crit suppression was no longer applied. This was mostly due to a bug in Recount that registerd partial resists as blocks or something like that. once that was fixed, the 4.8% "suppression" was no longer applying.

I'll check again, last time I checked you just had to apply crit through the 4.8%.

I also highly doubt recount, all the logging websites, etc would have the same bug at the same time.

[Biznick]

That's where it was discovered.. and posted again in http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...25707056&sid=1

Oh look, thats me. :P


I tested it about a few weeks after it was brought up. If you were like me it came out of no where, and was a bit of a shock. After hearing it from a number of credable sources I decided to test it for myself (mostly because I was super-bored)

It was first mentioned on EJ, then on the wow-forums, and the new crit cap has even been added in Toskk's Calculator.

The new crit cap is 100% - 24% - chance to miss/dodge + 4.8% = 80.8%, or 77.8% on the character sheet with a 3% raidwide crit buff.


edit: fixed quote

[Biznick]

I know. I remembered your sig and remembered seeing the name in the WOW forum post.

lol, I honestly didn't think anyone read it.

[coño]

http://thefluiddruid.wordpress.com/2...-guide-part-3/

"2. Don’t believe the ArPen hype. Agility remains the best stat. Why? Well, as I mentioned earlier, the 4pT10 bonus feeds off agi/crit. ArPen only helps your direct attacks, mainly your white damage and your Shreds. Now, if you have lots of haste or lots of ArPen (from 25-man buffs, 25m ICC gear, or both) than this might change, but in general, things look like this (10m buffs):
Gearing up (4pT9): Agi > Str > Crit > ArPen
Somewhat geared (2pT10ish): ArPen > Agi > Str
4pT10(251): Agi > ArPen > Str "

someone tell me what's going on here. The date of the post is:
February 23, 2010 by Alaron

[Psyber]

http://thefluiddruid.wordpress.com/2...-guide-part-3/

"2. Don’t believe the ArPen hype. Agility remains the best stat. Why? Well, as I mentioned earlier, the 4pT10 bonus feeds off agi/crit. ArPen only helps your direct attacks, mainly your white damage and your Shreds. Now, if you have lots of haste or lots of ArPen (from 25-man buffs, 25m ICC gear, or both) than this might change, but in general, things look like this (10m buffs):
Gearing up (4pT9): Agi > Str > Crit > ArPen
Somewhat geared (2pT10ish): ArPen > Agi > Str
4pT10(251): Agi > ArPen > Str "

someone tell me what's going on here. The date of the post is:
February 23, 2010 by Alaron

Allaron wrote that post solely for 10man icc gearing kitties. What it means to convey is that, gemming agil at arp softcap > gemming arp and try to hardcap.

At 10man level gear and buffs, you will easily hit arp softcap with extra gemslots, so what he is implying is that it'll be better to gem agil once you reach that point as agil provides more to your 4pc t10 bonus and other stats. Also at 10man level gear with arp softcap, you run very low risk to breaking crit softcap so it's relatively safe.

There are also things like DBW that drops in 25msn(not part of his assumption in gearing) do that will bring you further away from the aim of hardcapping through gems.

Hope I didn't make any mistakes trying to explain his intent.

[littlepiggy]

It's 76% + 4.8% - 3% - hit% - miss% to be crit capped. 3% is from retpally/eleshaman.

You shouldn't have to worry about it unless you're in 277 gear. I'm not crit capped at 60hit 22exp in mostly 264

i'm in mostly 264 gear sitting at 75% crit, 71 hit rating and 24 exp (as in 24/26, not rating) also 91.96% arp (i think its 1287

obviously the difference could be some gear with haste and some with crit, but some people do have to worry about it

[Kokomala]

i'm in mostly 264 gear sitting at 75% crit, 71 hit rating and 24 exp (as in 24/26, not rating) also 91.96% arp (i think its 1287

obviously the difference could be some gear with haste and some with crit, but some people do have to worry about it

6-7% of your -would be - crits are turning into misses, your cap is about 69% with your hit/exp

[Mortimer]

Allaron wrote that post solely for 10man icc gearing kitties. What it means to convey is that, gemming agil at arp softcap > gemming arp and try to hardcap.

At 10man level gear and buffs, you will easily hit arp softcap with extra gemslots, so what he is implying is that it'll be better to gem agil once you reach that point as agil provides more to your 4pc t10 bonus and other stats. Also at 10man level gear with arp softcap, you run very low risk to breaking crit softcap so it's relatively safe.

There are also things like DBW that drops in 25msn(not part of his assumption in gearing) do that will bring you further away from the aim of hardcapping through gems.

Hope I didn't make any mistakes trying to explain his intent.

Actually, if you look closely, you'll see that the 10-man geared cat he writes about is about 120 ArP away from the soft cap, yet his calculations still show that agility wins over ArP. With 4t10, NES and about 680-ish ArP from gear and appropriate buffs for our 10 man, Rawr is still telling me to gem for straight agility and agi/crit, even though a mere two gems (or just switching food type) would soft cap me. This might be because I'm so close to the NES soft cap already (although that would make ArP more valuable, no?), but I still see a DPS drop if I manually switch gems to get soft capped (a whooping four DPS, actually).

[Psyber]

Yea, the weights of crit/agil vs arp is very touchy at the softcap levels with 10man buffs. Arp is alot more valuable in 25man mainly cause there are many raid buffs that buff crit/agil, and that actually diminishes the weight of the stat. The weight of agil/crit without the extra buffs is very heavy due to 4pc t10 and rip ticks depending on it, something along those lines.

I'm pretty sure for your case arp will pull ahead if you assume 25man raid buffs instead of 10man, unless I'm largely mistaken.

[arel00]

I have been doing some testing by the way, don't want to open up a new thread so I'll drop it in here, linking to the main topic.
And I'll sum it up in a simple way:

- if you don't have an ArP trinket at all, get one :P
- while you are trying to, gem agility

- if you have an ArP trinket, but you can't reach the softcap by gemming ArP, get better gear
- while you are trying to, gem agility

- if you have the trinket, and you can reach the soft cap, gem ArP until the soft-cap, then gem agility

If you have over 1k passive ArP, without counting gems, it's time to drop your trinket, and gem fully ArP to get as close as possible to 1400.

If you have 1400 ArP, gem agility.

If you have 1400 ArP, and you're crit capped, gem Hit and Expertise until you cap both.

If you capped ArP, crit, hit and expertise, and you still have free sockets, you fucking rock, and we all like you. At that point, gem Haste and make Arthas go /wrist by looking at your Recount.

A small note now, based on that infamous research. If you have your ArP trinket, you have around 850-900 passive ArP from gear alone, and your raidbuffed crit is over 65% at least, you can try a very funny thing.
Fill your yellow sockets with Haste, and your red sockets with Agi+Haste gems.

It nets a VERY high DPS on a theoretical side, close to hard-capping ArP.
I actually did try that thing, and gained an average of 500-600dps. I don't have logs at the present time 'cause I have little time to raid, but I'll try to record and post some when possible.
It takes at least 850 passive ArP, gems not included, and you must push Haste over 500, this time including gems, while you're keeping crit over 65%. It's hard to juggle, it's been a bitch for me to set up the gear and try. But it's good. Lots of OoC procs, so an extremely fast rotation and a good deal of Bites.

It's a bit shitty on balancing the stats because the more you get Haste, the more you Bite, the more you need ArP to strengthen it. Iirc, the best results are at roughly 1k ArP and over 600 Haste. Good luck getting there tho :P

[raxin]

only beef i have with soft-cap'n ArP, in the ideal situation where u are standing still full time attacking one target u can nearly take full advantage of the proc, and in which all these calculations come from, but in the real world when that's not possible, AKA 8/10 bosses. When you constantly stopping you dps like on singrogosa to clear chill to the bone your more or add killing on dreamwalker or deathwhisper...the list goes on and on, you more than likely clipping your trinkent proc. So all in all, if u can take out the RNG of a trinkent proc'ing at the wrong time during a fight your going to see a significant increase.

[Twan]

Everyone seems to be talking about a 'soft arp cap'. What is it? Hard cap minus the Needle-Encrusted Scorpion proc?

[Kokomala]

Everyone seems to be talking about a 'soft arp cap'. What is it? Hard cap minus the Needle-Encrusted Scorpion proc?

yes or the other 2 arp trinks

[Hinalover]

Everyone seems to be talking about a 'soft arp cap'. What is it? Hard cap minus the Needle-Encrusted Scorpion proc?

What ^^ he said. Basically you take the amount of the ArP proc from the trinket and subtract it from 1400. That is considered the soft cap. With the trinket procs, you will be hitting the hard cap for that period of time. So in the NES case, the NES has a 678 ArP proc. 1400 - 678 = 722. So you will be wanting to be at 722 ArP to be ArP soft cap. You will need more ArP if you have Mjorn or Grim Toll since the proc from those two has a lower ArP amount proc.

[arel00]

only beef i have with soft-cap'n ArP, in the ideal situation where u are standing still full time attacking one target u can nearly take full advantage of the proc, and in which all these calculations come from, but in the real world when that's not possible, AKA 8/10 bosses. When you constantly stopping you dps like on singrogosa to clear chill to the bone your more or add killing on dreamwalker or deathwhisper...the list goes on and on, you more than likely clipping your trinkent proc. So all in all, if u can take out the RNG of a trinkent proc'ing at the wrong time during a fight your going to see a significant increase.

Which is why hard-capping ArP is the best possible situation, granted you can get there.

But we're talking relatives here, not absolutes. If you cannot reach the hard cap, then you better keep your ArP around 800 and gem agility (or haste).
Gemming until 1k ArP, without then being able to push those last 400, is a dps loss compared to the other choices.

[Ekna]

The problem these days about gemming agi is that at a certain gear level you get over the crit cap also. with the crit cap being 72% i find myself in certain circumstances over that cap (i've seen 78% ) atm i'm sitting on (selfbuffed) 60% and no agi gem in sight and also no procs at that point yet.

I would say gem agi if you're on the soft cap and have a ARP trinket. If you have that and you don't have a agi trinket, go for agility, you'll see the difference. if you can safely go to above 1120 arp, go for it, replace your agi gems with arp gems, if not stick with agility (= crit and AP)

At the moment i tend to gem ARP in red, for yellow HASTE (still am very low there) and blue, eh nothing good there or if you're not at the arp cap ARP/STAM or if you don't have any yet, a tear also works fine.