How I wish ICC worked.

[Shelly]

I wish ICC worked the way that the 5-mans work.

Here, let me explain it a bit better.

Each wing is a separate raid instance but in order to progress to a further wing you have to defeat a prior wing.

So you go through the first wing up past DBS. Easy. Now you have access to the next 3 wings, then you have the LK himself.

The lockout is refreshed every week so you can't just skip right to the LK after having gotten there once.

Now the reason I want this system is for one very big pro.

There are a lot of pugs that can make it past the first wing but then everything falls apart, so you say that you'll come back later to try the other wings, but when that time comes around you end up seeing things like "LF1M Healer, on Festergut" and that stinks. No healer wants to get saved to the raid when 1/4 of the bosses are already down and the group has a pretty high chance of failing.

Not to mention let's say your group does the first wing, but everyone bails and you can't get into any other wing. So here you are stuck on that lockout even if you personally could go further.

So yeah, for larger dungeons, as in not ToC, I'd like to see a more sectioned raid with separate lockouts. I think it would keep up the ability to pug and make the game more fun for a lot of people. As well as make the instances slightly less tedious and help raid groups where you end up with those times when one person you really need just can't make it.

[MushroomBomb]

I understand where you're coming from, having seen my share of bad pugs. But at the same time, we need to remember that raids aren't made for pick-up groups. They're made primarily for guilds and organized groups.

The problem with splitting up instances like how you suggest, from a strict business point of view, is that once a guild is finished with loot from one of the parts there no longer need to run that. As a result, they spend less time on the game. In the case of WoW, it matters not if they still pay their subscription fee. However, less and less time spent on a game in general tends to drive the players away from the game. At some point, it's very hard justifying 5 hours a play per week for 13€.

As for my personal opinion, I also disagree. Part of the lore and magic of raids is to defeat the top lieutenants before finally squaring off against the big chief up top/down below/at the end of the corridor/whatever. I just feel like being able to skip several of those would take away much of the lore and magic in instances for me.

[Shelly]

I understand where you're coming from, having seen my share of bad pugs. But at the same time, we need to remember that raids aren't made for pick-up groups. They're made primarily for guilds and organized groups.

The problem with splitting up instances like how you suggest, from a strict business point of view, is that once a guild is finished with loot from one of the parts there no longer need to run that. As a result, they spend less time on the game. In the case of WoW, it matters not if they still pay their subscription fee. However, less and less time spent on a game in general tends to drive the players away from the game. At some point, it's very hard justifying 5 hours a play per week for 13€.

As for my personal opinion, I also disagree. Part of the lore and magic of raids is to defeat the top lieutenants before finally squaring off against the big chief up top/down below/at the end of the corridor/whatever. I just feel like being able to skip several of those would take away much of the lore and magic in instances for me.

Well that's just the thing. You can't skip those powerful Lts. You have to still go through every boss in the raid.

Sorry, I know I articulated it poorly. Let's see if we can flowchart it out.

Day 1: You go in and you take out the first wing of ICC, it now unlocks the next 3 wings.

Day 2: Your guild/group can't seem to pull it together. But on the other hand it looks like a couple other groups can't either. So you pull in some members from trade or wherever who already downed the first wing and copmlete say Plague and Blood wings.

Day 3: Your guild finally figures out whatever the heck it is they needed to figure out. You go in and finish out the Frost wing.

Now all the people who completed plague and blood can go on to LK. All the people who could only show up for Frost are stuck.

Day 4: Your members who couldn't make day two come in and pug in some folks and down palgue wing.

Day 5: Same deal but for the blood wing but one person is still missing blood so your entire raid can't move on to LK.

Day 6: You come in and pug up a person who also made it through all 4 prior wings and go face the LK.

You can't quite down him and so you just call it. This leaves Day 7 open for anyone up to the LK to try and pug and get him down.

Week 2 rolls around and everything resets, the gate is locked again on the first wing and it must be cleared before you can move up towards LK.

Now see what I'm getting at?

[MushroomBomb]

Oh, I see. I'll be honest, that's a fairly decent idea. I was thinking more along the lines of the ICC 5-mans, a system I don't think would work in raids.

You have my support for this, for whatever it's worth

[destructard]

there is no day 7?

[Shelly]

there is no day 7?

I only count in base 6 and believe in a metric week.

That or you need to reread a bit.

[mosher94]

I don't get it...

[KandyCane]

there is no day 7?

On the seventh day, you shall rest.



On-topic; this sounds EXTREMELY complicated just to help out failing PuG-groups. As mentioned earlier, raids are not ment to be done by PuGs(sure, some normal modes are tuned so that a few people with no clue can do them).

You sound like you're willing to put a lot of dedication into raiding, so why not join a guild?

[Shelly]

On the seventh day, you shall rest.



On-topic; this sounds EXTREMELY complicated just to help out failing PuG-groups. As mentioned earlier, raids are not ment to be done by PuGs(sure, some normal modes are tuned so that a few people with no clue can do them).

You sound like you're willing to put a lot of dedication into raiding, so why not join a guild?

It's actually nowhere near as complicated as it sounds. It's just hard to describe.

And I am in a guild, but it's a 10-man guild, my job an hours are such that I can't raid as much as I'd like. Which brings up an entirely different question, why the hell on a west coast server does it seem to be only populated by people from the east coast?

Anyway, raids are essentially puggable. I think that what the badge system has taught everyone is that most baseline folks are more skilled than you give them credit for. Sure there are always going to be very skilled guilds and people that just excel. However there are now folks stepping into ICC with just badge gear and without even being carried too much are able to down multiple wings - depending of course on their role.

[KandyCane]

Anyway, raids are essentially puggable. I think that what the badge system has taught everyone is that most baseline folks are more skilled than you give them credit for. Sure there are always going to be very skilled guilds and people that just excel. However there are now folks stepping into ICC with just badge gear and without even being carried too much are able to down multiple wings - depending of course on their role.

This, of course, is entirely true. However, it's extremely difficult to find such a PuG, because people are generally a lot less disciplined when running PuGs, and so they don't try as hard as if it had been a guild run(don't ask me why, but this just seems to be the case for the majority).

And while it may not -sound- complicated, I'm sure it'll be complicated to implent something that makes 2/10(or 2/25) people able to go somewhere the rest isn't able to. I'm only doing 10-mans myself, and I'm not PuG'ing at all due to horrible, traumatic experiences.

I see how this would make it a lot easier to PuG as well, but then one question comes up to me... wouldn't it kinda eliminate the raid lock almost entirely? Sure, you can't do the same bosses twice in one week, but you could keep bringing in a ton of people...



Well, anyway. As great as an idea it might seem on paper, I personally wouldn't enjoy it in-game, although I most likely wouldn't complain either if it was implented(unless I had to go through a loading screen for every wing, that'd be horrible).

It sounds a bit like the "raid locks limited to bosses"-idea to me, which was that you'd get saved to the boss you kill, and then you can go join a raid with someone who's already killed that boss.

[Annoying]

And what of optimizing raid groups? If I sit a few dps because you need 4 tanks on PP, then the 2 dps don't get to come to LK with us? That would never work.

[ParaChim]

there is no day 7?

and on day 7... the raid rested.

[roboscorcher]

I like this idea. Progressing with pugs in ICC is near-impossible, and I know a number of people who are quitting until cataclysm because of the resulting frustration.

[pomterri]

I just want a teleporter for each boss. (upperspire > Queen or upperspire > professors front) will be enough tho.
Running that way for each wipe which comes at %1-2-3 is pain in the ars already and what? You wait for every1 to run the whole way and buff and such. (I'M in a 11/12 icc hc guild but it still happens so I cant imagine other lowbie guilds)

[Shelly]

I see how this would make it a lot easier to PuG as well, but then one question comes up to me... wouldn't it kinda eliminate the raid lock almost entirely? Sure, you can't do the same bosses twice in one week, but you could keep bringing in a ton of people...



Well, anyway. As great as an idea it might seem on paper, I personally wouldn't enjoy it in-game, although I most likely wouldn't complain either if it was implented(unless I had to go through a loading screen for every wing, that'd be horrible).

It sounds a bit like the "raid locks limited to bosses"-idea to me, which was that you'd get saved to the boss you kill, and then you can go join a raid with someone who's already killed that boss.

Well you'd still be limited to a pool of people who could make it past that first wing. And you already go through a loading screen going from the first wing to the 2nd wing of ICC.

As well as you could split up the raid instance over 3 wings, or 4 wings with 3 to 4 bosses each. Which is about the way it is now.

And I think it's a bit more reasonable than the whole just saving you to only the bosses you kill to put you together for randoms.

[levitate]

there is no day 7?

That's the day you rest.

[weshallarise]

blizzard needs to institute per boss raid lockout. i think they had that back in EQ. eg. if i down first 4 in a pug because i couldnt make tuesday raids and my guild is on blood queen my lockout should be able to be converted into theirs because im behind them,

[XFuzzypeachX]

ok this to quell al those ppl there is no day 7

Tuesday raid reset day and Day 1

wednesday day2

thursday day 3

friday day 4

saturday day 5

sunday day 6

monday day 7


See there is 7 days

On topic i love the idea since it is so hard for me to stay up past 12 with the whole group who r like me so i can pug each wing as i like or with my guild