Balance Druids rolling on cloth?? Nevah!

[Caanrial]

So I've potentially started "drama" in my guild by trying to allow boomkin to roll on cloth drops as main spec, when it's a BiS item. If Blizz didn't intend for boomkin to wear cloth then why give us the +400% armor bonus? I'm one of two boomys in the whole guild and I'm the only one that raids consistently. The discussion centers around having a full and complete set of raiding gear in your main spec that is best for you to get your raiding job done. Note that for boomys, with little argument, a full set of Sanctified Heroic Tier10 is the best. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about non-heroic 25-man drops only. Please give feedback on these specific questions:

1. What other classes (besides Ele Shammy) have a "lower" type of gear that is BEST IN SLOT for them? Please list the class/spec and the piece of gear that you would use in a full WotLK raid that is not the highest type (eg. if resto pally, show me which leather or mail piece is better than every other healing plate piece in that slot.)

2. I do not think I'm being completely unreasonable in my request. Does it make sense to force me to pass on a cloth item that increases my output by 10% in order to let a cloth wearer get it even if it only increases their output by 1%? If Blizz made more leather caster gear with equivalent stats as cloth then this wouldn't be an issue.

[Krypper]

Look, if the cloth casters in your guild are seriously complaining about you rolling on cloth only when it's BiS, then they have issues. That's more than reasonable. Otherwise, just convince the other moonkin to spec cat with you and tell the casters that you'll go back to buffing the shit out of them when you can roll on your BiS gear.

[Caanrial]

Look, if the cloth casters in your guild are seriously complaining about you rolling on cloth only when it's BiS, then they have issues. That's more than reasonable. Otherwise, just convince the other moonkin to spec cat with you and tell the casters that you'll go back to buffing the shit out of them when you can roll on your BiS gear.

That's a bit harsh imo, but I would make a concession. Since the basis of their argument is that cloth can only wear cloth but leather can wear leather AND cloth, then I would allow them to all roll first until all main-spec regular raider cloth wearers (no alts or off-spec) have their BiS cloth item. Then I would expect to be next on the list. Unfortunately, our current loot rules put the "off-armor" type roll right near the bottom of the roll priority so many other types get to roll before I would.

[Cocoe]

We have no cloth prio I believe. Certainly not for BiS items.

[Krypper]

That's an acceptable policy when it comes to regular gear, but we're talking BiS here. That means the particular piece of gear is the optimal piece at this point in the game (and will probably be until the first tier of raid content of Cat) and so that is your end. It make sense when "gearing up" to give the clothies cloth first, because that way you can get into the swing of things and progress. BiS is the gearing goal, the end of the optimization tunnel. Everyone that it's BiS for should have an equal shot at meeting their goal. Choosing a moonkin shouldn't mean that you must reach your gear goal after everyone else does.

This is how it happened in my old guild. A policy keeping cloth out of my hands till all clothies were happy was in place, and I complained about BiS publicly. I got a backlash from some of the casters, so the next raid I showed up as bear and told them I'd decided to start playing a role where I had equal priority on the gear so that I didn't feel limited in my optimization choices. The few that were being stubborn apologized, and so I went back to lasering things. In Ulduar, the moonkin BiS list had what? Two or three cloth pieces? Once the GMs heard that it was only those I cared about, they conceded.

We have no cloth prio I believe. Certainly not for BiS items.

The above moonkin has buff-bitch syndrome. I'll say this once: You are a contributing member of the raid. You are just as vital to the success of said raid regardless of your class DPS potential (within reason). You should not be forced to take scraps because the Arcane Mages have inflated e-peens.

[Rellekk]

Blizzard has addressed this over n over n over n over. It was ENTIRELY their goal to make cloth gear some of the best gear in game for ALL caster for simplicity purpose. 1 caster uses leather and 1 caster uses mail, while all 5 caster classes can use cloth.

why would blizz waste time creating a full and equal loot list every raid to make sure boomkins and ele shamans have just as plentiful mail/leather specific gear when only they can use it when they can just make multiple cloth items they all can wear.

Stats > Armor type

[omein]

can you link some of this BiS cloth please?

[AnotherPaladin]

This is a very touchy subject, and there really is no right answer. I'd say if it's an upgrade...it's in upgrade, although I'm sure a bunch of people would disagree with me on this.

[Cpttrips]

can you link some of this BiS cloth please?

while i wont got to the trouble of linking ,it its true.

then the other problem is the frequency of sp leather drops ive run thru festergut 8 times and i havent seen one leather sp item drop off any of the bosses while every week i see cloth drop.

[Caanrial]

I'm OP so here goes:

can you link some of this BiS cloth please?

REMEMBER that this does NOT include hard mode or Tier gear because, as I said, Hard-mode Tier 10 is BiS for boomys:

Head: Helm of the Elder Moon (leather) Rotface/25
Shoulders: Stiffened Corpse Shoulderpads (cloth) ICC/25 trash
Chest: Meteor Chaser's Raiment (cloth) 95 badges
Hands: Gloves of False Gestures (cloth) 60 badges
Wrists: Death Surgeon's Sleeves (cloth) Rotface/25 BUT same stats as SleepyDragon/25 Bracers of Eternal Dreaming which are leather
Waist: Belt of Petrified Ivy (leather) 60 badges
Feet: Plague Scientist's Boots (cloth) Festergut/25
Back: Frostbinder's Shredded Cape (cloth) SleepyDragon/25
Neck: Blood Queen's Crimson Choker BloodQueen/25

And for completeness, the rest of my normal BiS gear:

Trinket#1: Phylactery of the Nameless Lich Sindragosa/25
Trinket#2: Dislodged Foreign Object Rotface/25
Ring#1: Ashen Band of Endless Destruction (I have this) Ashen Verdict Exalted
Ring#2: Ring of Rapid Ascent Gunship/25
2-Hand Weapon: Nibelung (I have this)
A quote from the ranker: "Due to our scaling issues, Moonkin is just about the only spec that Nibelung is good for. Simulations say that it is at least equal to MH/OH combos of a similar item level."
Main-Hand: Frozen Bonespike (I have this) Marrowgar/25
Off-Hand: Shadow Silk Spindle BloodPrinces/25

Ignore the last half and ignore the crafted & badge items. I'm focusing on the cloth drops that are the BEST for CASTERS, of which I am.

[Deleted]

Do you know why they call it BiS ? Because its BEST IN SLOT.
Why should a druid have to downgrade just because he can also wear leather....

[Caetlan]

I'm probably going to be flamed for this, but as a clothie, situations like this are really annoying.

If something is YOUR BiS, and you have even more options than we do, what makes you think it isn't OUR best in slot as well?

Main Spec, Proper Armor > Main Spec, Wrong Armor > Off Spec, Proper Armor > Off Spec, Wrong Armor.

Cloth caster loot is already in high contention without having non-cloth wearers rolling as well. I know it sucks for you, but it sucks even more for us when we see the druid, shaman, paladin taking gear that's only 5 or 6 stat points different than their 'main armor' option, and we know that the gear they took was our only choice. I'm not saying that holy priests should gear out their offspecs with cloth before you get a chance to roll on it for main spec--just don't take it from someone whose only viable option is cloth when you have others.

And as to the "frequency of leather SP drops"...would you take Althor's Abacus because it's got SP on it and it drops every week, while you've yet to see Phylactery or DFO? I surely hope not.

As for your list [gahh people, stop posting while I'm typing!], I'm interested by the comment about your wrist choice..."Wrists: Death Surgeon's Sleeves (cloth) Rotface/25 BUT same stats as SleepyDragon/25 Bracers of Eternal Dreaming which are leather". Why on earth would you call that BiS if there's a leather option with the exact same stats? There's only one item (discounting the bracers which you've got me very confused on) that I would consider a cloth drop. Cloaks are "cloth" even if they've got defense or agi on them, so they're fair game. The boots are the only piece that you seem like you'd really be interested in looting over a cloth-only caster or healer. They're the ONLY cloth boots from ICC 25 at all--I'd be very upset if they were looted to a nonclothie in my guild.

[Caanrial]

Partially correct. The boots and the shoulders is all I'm looking at...For Now. I'm trying to change the whole idea that officers have on gearing. BiS is BiS regardless of type. For that one item, the end-all, be-all of gear in that slot, it should be freely open to EVERYONE for rolls.

Your statement about boomys having more options than clothies is patently false. Compare the amount of cloth caster gear to the amount of leather caster gear and you'll see I'm right. But again, I'm talking about BiS!

And no, I wouldn't take the abacus because it's not BiS. Gotta keep focused here man. I would and have passed on the wrists even though we don't have sleepydragon on farm yet, but of course that is a perfect example of when I would wait to get "my" gear type instead of rolling on "your" gear type. Notice that it has *identical* stats to the cloth piece (armor is irrelevant) which is why I'd wait.

ALL of this would be solved if Blizz made even a SINGLE leather caster item in every slot that has identical stats to the BiS cloth items. Just ONE Blizz, c'mon!!!

[anyaka21]

BiS gear is multifaceted and based on the gear you have. Meaning, dropping something with hit to get something with crit/haste isn't smart.

That said, there are lots of stuff that are very very good for balance druids that are cloth. If people in your guild can't understand that, then it's time to get a new guild.

If at this point in the game and in your progression, people actually have issues about min/max, then it's the team that's the issue. The best TEAMS are those that in reality know that an upgrade is an upgrade and will help progress their gear further. If your guild doesn't understand this, again, time to find a new guild.

[Mercadi]

I've never had situations where the leather user rolls on cloth before asking whether some cloth caster/priest would need it. There's never been drama about BiS in my guild, and we're pretty up-to-date in progression.

[xionkarl]

This is why the best thing I am looking forward to in Cataclysm is that you will be penalized for wearing gear outside of your main armor class. So all the Boomkin that have cloth gear, will get penalized for that gear not being leather.

It's going to end it once and for all.

[darkwingdot]

I'm probably going to be flamed for this, but as a clothie, situations like this are really annoying.

If something is YOUR BiS, and you have even more options than we do, what makes you think it isn't OUR best in slot as well?

Main Spec, Proper Armor > Main Spec, Wrong Armor > Off Spec, Proper Armor > Off Spec, Wrong Armor.

Cloth caster loot is already in high contention without having non-cloth wearers rolling as well. I know it sucks for you, but it sucks even more for us when we see the druid, shaman, paladin taking gear that's only 5 or 6 stat points different than their 'main armor' option, and we know that the gear they took was our only choice. I'm not saying that holy priests should gear out their offspecs with cloth before you get a chance to roll on it for main spec--just don't take it from someone whose only viable option is cloth when you have others.

And as to the "frequency of leather SP drops"...would you take Althor's Abacus because it's got SP on it and it drops every week, while you've yet to see Phylactery or DFO? I surely hope not.

As for your list [gahh people, stop posting while I'm typing!], I'm interested by the comment about your wrist choice..."Wrists: Death Surgeon's Sleeves (cloth) Rotface/25 BUT same stats as SleepyDragon/25 Bracers of Eternal Dreaming which are leather". Why on earth would you call that BiS if there's a leather option with the exact same stats? There's only one item (discounting the bracers which you've got me very confused on) that I would consider a cloth drop. Cloaks are "cloth" even if they've got defense or agi on them, so they're fair game. The boots are the only piece that you seem like you'd really be interested in looting over a cloth-only caster or healer. They're the ONLY cloth boots from ICC 25 at all--I'd be very upset if they were looted to a nonclothie in my guild.

You sound like a whinny clothie than I would out DPS. I am just happy in my guild we don't bitch at each other over loot since gearing up one person means helping out the whole of the guild with progression. Who cares if the Druid gets a cloth item before you. No single person is the most important part of the raid and having all your people in the best sets they can get is far more important than arguing over a leather proff rolling/bidding on cloth.

This is why the best thing I am looking forward to in Cataclysm is that you will be penalized for wearing gear outside of your main armor class. So all the Boomkin that have cloth gear, will get penalized for that gear not being leather.

It's going to end it once and for all.

They said they would give buffs if you used your main armor proff, not that they would hurt you for using other gear proffs. Please get your facts straight.

[Caanrial]

This is why the best thing I am looking forward to in Cataclysm is that you will be penalized for wearing gear outside of your main armor class. So all the Boomkin that have cloth gear, will get penalized for that gear not being leather.

It's going to end it once and for all.

Spoken like a true cloth wearer!

And on further reflection, Blizz should only make two types of gear: cloth and plate. Then each class should have an armor modifier that is different from each other. I would have said only one gear type, but in deference to role-playing, etc, I figured the game would just *feel* weird if pallys wore cloth into battle. Something about the clang of sword on armor plate or something...

[Krypper]

If something is YOUR BiS, and you have even more options than we do, what makes you think it isn't OUR best in slot as well?

This is the precise opposite of the moonkin's thought process. We know that the if cloth piece is our BiS, it's probably the BiS for the cloth casters as well as the elemental shaman. That's exactly the point. It's BiS for everyone because it's damn well itemized. The item was designed to be an objective for all casters, not just clothies. Why should moonkin have to take a poorly-itemized leather while you take cloth? I mean, you could take poorly itemized cloth while the other casters take the good stuff, and the stat difference is probably pretty minimal.

Your logic is flawed. A moonkin taking a BiS pair of cloth gloves is not robbing you of your gloves slot, he/she is getting an upgrade that will not be upgraded again in the foreseeable future, at a small advantage over current gear. You've got gloves on, presumably a pretty decent pair of gloves, and you're also targetting the last pair of gloves for this expansion. You taking the gloves prevents the moonkin from finishing his/her gear just as much as the moonkin would prevent you from finishing. A good player will not be satisfied with a piece of gear six points of SP under max (clearly, you're not), so why should they have to settle for six points less because a clothie feels entitled?

This is why the best thing I am looking forward to in Cataclysm is that you will be penalized for wearing gear outside of your main armor class. So all the Boomkin that have cloth gear, will get penalized for that gear not being leather.

It's going to end it once and for all.

It will also mean fewer drops of really good cloth since the moonkin/shaman versions of said cloth pieces will now be produced for every slot (Blizzard currently expects Druids to wear some cloth).

[xionkarl]

(Blizzard currently expects Druids to wear some cloth).

I'd like to see proof of this. Not denying it outright, but I would like to see evidence that they expect this and not just someone's opinion because they think they should have cloth loot also.