[Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

[harky]

*cough*

AOE Aura ticks, which are the only consistent AOE damage in fights tick either every 2, or every 3 seconds. This means that unless someone is hit by something other than AOE aura ticks PoM will never fall off within the cooldown. It's actually exceptionally rare even when bouncing it off a tank. For 2 second tick auras PoM will use it's last charge at 8-10 seconds. For 3 second tick auras PoM will use it's last charge at 12-15 seconds. Cooldown = 7 seconds. This means that under normal circumstances using PoM 'on cooldown' results in losing 20% of the maximum healing, but in some circumstances it can cost you up to 60% of the cast.

The standard safe timing is around 10 seconds. Most Auras are 2 seconds, which lines up the 10 second mark as fairly failsafe. That said if you are paying more attention you can cast it more often than this as your PoM may be eaten by another Priest's, or your targets may take extra damage which will cause it to fall earlier. Casting PoM on cooldown every time is bad practice and is costing your raid healing.

The reason haste is preferred is that it allows you to spread your healing out, which in general offers the same net healing increase as SP while also reducing the likelihood that you will be over-healing. The main concern here is how your cooldowns line up and how many Renews you can have active. You also don't need to worry if you're only dealing with 60-100 Haste, so I'm not sure why you'd complain. Just switch a single item, not an entire set. The difference in haste caps between Holy and Discipline is 257, not 60-100. If you're dealing with that it becomes harder.

I think your problem is that you're saying you don't cast for the entirety of fights. If you're not even being an active healer, then why would you bother min/maxing? Work on the laziness, then work on the gear. ICC25H can be healed in 232 gear if you have the ridiculous buff up (see: everyone) and pinky is hardly challenging to begin with.

Haste is preferred for three reasons though:
1. Increases flexibility.
2. Allows more targets to be healed simultaneously.
3. Tends to reduce overhealing.

ps: Still retired. :P

[Tiberria]

You can't look at fights strait up like math, I never see people die because I didn't cast fast enough Very rarely have I seen people die to lack of heals, they die because someone screwed up the fight, healing in WoW has never been easier, hell it hasn't been a challenge since TBC 2.4. I mean if were cast POH and GH all the time I can see haste more valuable. If you strait up do nothing but cast the entire fight I could see haste so valuable Do you know any fights where you stand cast every single second of the fight? Other than patchwerk pre-ulduar?

I think we're talking in too much generalizations here, what is good and what is not good depends on the fight. In a heavy AE fight your POM is going to jump out by the time it refreshes, and the preheal effect like a shield shouldn't be over looked. So if PoM jumped to a target that isn't about to take any dmg soon, should I not recast it on someone who IS about to take damage because it didn't use it all up? I want to explain what situation I am talking about is heavy AE fights, can you tell me a heavy AE fight where POM will not jump out by the time it's time to recast it?


So in conclusion, yes Haste if valuable, but between raid buffs, haste you pick up on gear does gemming in haste or SP really make that big of a difference either way as holy? Not really, but it does make a difference if you are bouncing between holy and disc because now you have to carry around 2 sets of T10 because you wanted like 60-100 more haste rating, wow that will make or break a fight.

If you're recasting PoM while there are still charges on it, you are theoretically reducing your HPS because you are using extra GCDs to refresh something before it needs to be refreshed that could be used on getting extra renews out.

That said, there's a very good practical reason for using PoM on CD on alot of fights and that is it helps with tank healing througput. That PoM hitting a tank or activating after a tank takes a hit can make a huge difference if it happens say at the same time your holy pallies are moving/using divine plea/etc. The other thing is for aura damage, usually PoM heals for way more than necessary to heal a raid member to fulll. Therefore, it is probably overhealing 60%+. However, tanks take hits for 20k+ constantly, so depending on the fight, you may get more effective healing from maximizing the PoMs on tanks than waiting for the charges to be used up.

It's going to depend on the fight. On a fight like BQL, probably you don't want to refresh PoM before its used up because tank damage is light and the more renews out the better. On a fight like LK with heavy tank damage and relatively limited raid damage (before P3) or a fight like Festergut (heavy raid damage but a real risk of tank deaths if not careful), it's probably better to PoM off tanks on CD.

[zenkai]

If you're recasting PoM while there are still charges on it, you are theoretically reducing your HPS because you are using extra GCDs to refresh something before it needs to be refreshed that could be used on getting extra renews out.

Either I am really poor at explaining my post are you're not reading it

[harky]

Either I am really poor at explaining my post are you're not reading it

I suppose it would have to be that you're really poor at explaining your post.

You can't look at fights strait up like math, I never see people die because I didn't cast fast enough Very rarely have I seen people die to lack of heals, they die because someone screwed up the fight, healing in WoW has never been easier, hell it hasn't been a challenge since TBC 2.4. I mean if were cast POH and GH all the time I can see haste more valuable. If you strait up do nothing but cast the entire fight I could see haste so valuable Do you know any fights where you stand cast every single second of the fight? Other than patchwerk pre-ulduar?

1. You imply that haste is for 'healing people faster', yet make no mention of 'healing more targets', which is the primary benefit.
2. You imply that you're not being active in fights. Good healers are in fact casting the whole fight. However, this is inconsequential as there is a benefit to stacking haste even without being active for the majority of the fight as long as you cast chains of spells. If you ever cast two spells in a row with no delay haste has a solid return.

I think we're talking in too much generalizations here, what is good and what is not good depends on the fight. In a heavy AE fight your POM is going to jump out by the time it refreshes, and the preheal effect like a shield shouldn't be over looked. So if PoM jumped to a target that isn't about to take any dmg soon, should I not recast it on someone who IS about to take damage because it didn't use it all up? I want to explain what situation I am talking about is heavy AE fights, can you tell me a heavy AE fight where POM will not jump out by the time it's time to recast it?

1. You're implying that PoM will use all its charges within its cooldown on AOE fights. This is false. On aura fights, which are really the only AOE fights in ICC, it takes 8-11 seconds in general for PoM to be consumed with the averaging being ~10.
2. You're implying that you put PoM on a target who you expect to take damage. AOE fights in ICC do not work this way. Everyone is expected to take damage, so moving your PoM from one target to another means that you lost healing. By moving your PoM you're consuming a GCD that otherwise could have been used to throw another heal at an at risk group member.

There is basically one time where you should use PoM on cooldown as Holy: Tank healing.

In retrospect it looks as though it isn't a case of you explaining poorly, but having a poor understanding of the discussion.

Sadly, this is my last post before returning from my business trip and having access to a PC that will run SC2 again, so I'll have no reason to peruse forums. Boo. Oh wait, yay.

[zenkai]

You're telling me that if I gem all my yellow sockets with haste instead of SP I will magically heal way more targets in a fight that makes a significant difference? It takes a haste rating of 1639.5 to get GCD down to 1 second (Yes I know you can lower that by 5% and such with raid buffs)

So let's Talk Math, let's say there is no Haste raid buffs, and myself I don't gem haste (my main spec is disc) My haste rating is 559 so My GCD is 1.28. A holy priest I know who has better gear than me and gems ALL haste has a haste rating of 1150, his GCD is 1.11 So in theory he gains a .17 cast time. Iin a patchwerk type fight in 5 min with 0 ping, I can cast 281 instant cast where he can cast 324, looks good on paper but as we know there is no fights where you can pretty much cast 100% of the time, and even if there was you would be OOM so fast from over healing.

So this same priest has 17 sockets(well 18 but we will exclude that for activating the meta), if he had Gemed SP he would have gained 391 sp, but instead he gemed all haste which gained him a boost of 340 haste which gained him a .141 reduction in his GCD. So has a holy priest where do you get most benefit from haste? Renew (if you spam Flash heal then lol) What's a Holy priest bread and butter spell? Oh it's circle of healing. If you gem up haste to crank out renews I suggest retiring your priest and roll a druid.

All I am saying is that gemming strait SP, Geming strait haste, and Hybrid geming makes no significant difference other than carrying around two sets of gear if you play holy/disc

On PoM, do realize there are other damage going on other than Aura don't you? Yeah I only see people's health drop every 3 seconds in AE fights. I listen to the clings and can tell when it's time to cast it again, yes it doesn't need to be spammed in all fights but if you're telling me in it only needs to be cast every 15 seconds then /sigh No point in beating a dead horse.

[Lysdexic]

As far as haste is concerned, it doesn't matter whether your filler is renew or flash heal, as both receive the same benefits. However, since renew scales so much better, you're comparing a 6000 with a 16000 heal.

Going point by point on your last post, we'll see:
Talking math, there's no point in discussing raid healing without raid buffs, so let's say we have ToW / WoA & Swift Retribution. This is 280 spellpower and 8% haste. This provides a "significant" boost to spellpower (but because of the ICC buff it's irrelevant) and a "significant" boost to haste, lowering the cap to 1269, iirc.

Ok so you're comparing yourself (additional 6% haste from disc spec) to a holy priest with 1150 haste. Your instant casts (and any casted spell with a base cast time of 1.5s) all receive an identical benefit. However, your heals with a longer cast time, such as PoH, become much faster. Guess what shaman stack to benefit chain heal?

OOM? Mana isn't a real consideration anymore. As a holy priest, sure, it's more of a concern than for the other healers, but that means you can get an innervate or two if you really need it.

I can guarantee you that druids would stack haste if they needed it, but they don't because they get ridiculous amounts from talents. Their haste cap is around 840 iirc. Once they reach that, they simply don't scale with any other stat than spellpower, which is why they go for that. The same is for disc priests really.

I understand what your point that as a priest that frequently changes specs, you don't want to keep 2 sets of gear. However, haste gems WOULD be the better option for your holy spec. Assuming you only raid ICC, even if you clear LK25 HC, you could run around with ungemmed gear because of the buff. The additional spellpower does not really help you. You're probably looking at a difference (391sp) of bubble size like 13,000 to 13,300. Will that save a life? No. However, the fights (even as disc) where you can use PoH, will get a benefit from haste gems.


After writing all this, I'm not even sure if it makes sense, but I don't care really... But keep in mind that with a raid buffed figure above 4000 spellpower, the gems are ~10% or less. The ICC buff is therefore worth much much much more than you could ever accomplish with gems. But it only affects spellpower, not crit or haste. Druids and Paladins have no trouble reaching the haste cap because of the retarded amount of haste they get from talents. The only healers who don't really get talented haste are priests and shaman, and take a look at what the shammies go for.

[_leander]

It seem really dumb when player hurt their character by thinking this way. If you don't understand math why try apply math to your character? Should listen to player who have more experience. Maybe try understanding math? That probably help lots more than try to explain why min/max don't matter. If you don't care about min/max why care about discussing? Seem so stupid.

Haste cap 1639.5? Stupid. It only round up, so 1670. That number does not matter. Haste cap in decent raid only 1269 for Holy. Haste cap 1012 for Discipline. So not need two sets. Only change some gears not all of set.

If you are not good player then ignore theory for me. ICC buff mean min/max barely matter. Should only care if you really good, or really care a lot about your character. People talking about not casting for whole fight? People talking about gain 15% more spells and compare to SP? SP increase over healing most of time, not increase healing too much. Only small part. Haste mean you get almost same over heal percent, but heal more. SP mean you over heal more percent.

Also people say roll Druid if spam Renew? Why? Because best play for Priest use HoT and Druid have better HoT? Does not make playing best way as Priest worse.

[Lysdexic]

It seem really dumb when player hurt their character by thinking this way. If you don't understand math why try apply math to your character? Should listen to player who have more experience. Maybe try understanding math? That probably help lots more than try to explain why min/max don't matter. If you don't care about min/max why care about discussing? Seem so stupid.

Haste cap 1639.5? Stupid. It only round up, so 1670. That number does not matter. Haste cap in decent raid only 1269 for Holy. Haste cap 1012 for Discipline. So not need two sets. Only change some gears not all of set.

If you are not good player then ignore theory for me. ICC buff mean min/max barely matter. Should only care if you really good, or really care a lot about your character. People talking about not casting for whole fight? People talking about gain 15% more spells and compare to SP? SP increase over healing most of time, not increase healing too much. Only small part. Haste mean you get almost same over heal percent, but heal more. SP mean you over heal more percent.

Also people say roll Druid if spam Renew? Why? Because best play for Priest use HoT and Druid have better HoT? Does not make playing best way as Priest worse.

This is a perfect example of why you don't need to speak perfect English to get your point across. Kudos to you sir for, in a concise manner, putting your points forward.

[Kelesti]

Sticky tag removed. Awaiting patch Release before putting a replacement up.