Will Disc really be viable in raids in Cata?

[cruxxy]

I do like the concept of Disc in Cata: a true hybrid healer where your damage spells supply or augment your healing. However, if you enter a raid environment where maximum contribution is expected of every player, will there really be a role for a parttime healer?

If you take away the smite synergy in the tree, you basically have a far inferior holy priest with PW:B. Why would a raid want such a spec when it could bring a real DPS or a real healer?

I can envision encounters where raid damage comes in predicted bursts and Disc could help buffer in those intervals. Disc seems also set up to be a tank healer with shorter WS, Penance CD reduction, and Archangel. But every other healing spec is set up to be more versatile in Cata, able to fill every role. Is Disc going the other way?

I am definitely going to enjoy Disc in 5mans. I'm just not convinced it is raid viable.

[Ebbikenezer]

I have been wondering this myself as a full time Disc raid healer for our guild.

Here's what I think will happen: Holy priests and Resto druids are going to be the mac daddy's for entry level raiding in Cata. As we see gear get better, itemization develop better and become less of a struggle... Disc will start creeping back into the fray. And when mastery is getting into record levels? Disc will definitely earn a spot back into full time raiding.

Until then: Get comfy with Holy, I don't see it being knocked off it's perch very easily if you are good at it.

Also... Disc will probably be the "go-to" guy for healing 5 mans. Was like that when WotLK dropped... not so much because they were OP like they are now, but b/c they had the best regen and shields were like tossing extra HP on the undergeared party members.

I wouldn't give up on disc just yet: Blizz always tweaks things, and Disc is moderately more gear dependent than Holy for raid healing.

[Ansa]

Well theyre trying to balance it so all classes have the same healing potential and discipline brings to the table damage reduction and some extra dmg, as well as healing on par with all other healers (as long as the balancing works out)

Smite, damage combined with healing (neglective but nice on a fast kill attempt)
Longetivity, Rapture, Inner Focus, Mental Agility, Archangel and Power Infusion
Healing, should be on same for all healers (we might be behind on the AoE department)
Stamina Buff, Power Word: Fortitude returns, shared with lots of speccs/classes bringing the same buff

Plus, its going over to bring the player not the class, so be a enough nice guy and your brought
(unless your silly enough be without a guild throughout cataclysm)

PS, I will be sticking with Discipline until someone puts silly Holy thoughts in my head!

[Kelesti]

Discipline isn't so much a "Part-time" healer, so much as their "Heal" spell also does damage.

As for the viability, contrary to popular belief Holy was perfectly viable all throughout Wrath (Disc was shining on 4 fights).

Discipline will stand on its own, people will just need to adapt to it, which is good for the spec to grow.

When it comes down to viability, for what the spec is capable of, there is no question in my mind.

[Bigslick]

Discipline isn't so much a "Part-time" healer, so much as their "Heal" spell also does damage.

The question that comes to mind for me is, will Disc pay a hybrid tax out of their healing throughput to pay for the fact that they are also providing a dps contribution?

[Rocketsurgeon]

The healing throughput is what is necessary to keep even with the other healers, so the last thing I'd expect to see is a tax taken out of it. The damage itself is low enough to be more in the 'interesting' category of things players bring to the group, I think. And all healers should be bringing some level of dps contribution. Disc being at the forefront, admittedly, but my shaman will be throwing out lightning bolts every chance he gets.

[raivyne]

The question that comes to mind for me is, will Disc pay a hybrid tax out of their healing throughput to pay for the fact that they are also providing a dps contribution?

What i'm noticing right now in beta that with +5 levels and better gear, my heals are about the same as they now on live servers. I expected to have bigger heals at this point TBH.

Mana is tight, even with archangel. I suppose that was expected.

I just started really running instances and i'm still in a lot of green gear... so maybe things will get better or i'll figure out what i'm doing wrong.

[Deleted]

your not the only one running oom in seconds.

Disc will be superior to holy (5man nh & heroics), because:
# more mana efficient
# higher mana pool (+15% int)
# deals dmg while healing -> shorter fights
# cheap & powerful healing spells (penance's really cheap, Rapture, Evangelism saves up to 15% mana)
# marginal group damage (noone dies after 6 sec without healing) (except that freaking marrowgar-modell-boss in HoO [maybe he already got nerfed])

[Lilicia30]

They havent started raid testing

[BishopXQ]

Right now,holy is taking the honor in 5 man heroics. As for raids,well we will see in a week or two

Disc's main trouble is Blizzard wants to keep the shields low to prevent the old "bubble,bubble,bubble,bubble,bubble,bubble,bubble,bubble,ect"
which takes alot of Disc's utility out of things.

[Repo123]

your not the only one running oom in seconds.

Disc will be superior to holy (5man nh & heroics), because:
# more mana efficient
# higher mana pool (+15% int)
# deals dmg while healing -> shorter fights
# cheap & powerful healing spells (penance's really cheap, Rapture, Evangelism saves up to 15% mana)
# marginal group damage (noone dies after 6 sec without healing) (except that freaking marrowgar-modell-boss in HoO [maybe he already got nerfed])

I'm confused as to how disc is more mana efficient.

I would think Holy Concentration/Evangelism/Chakra/Surge of Light makes holy more mana efficient.

Holy's aoe is superior to disc.

Holy's throughput is better.

Disc's damage will not be the deciding factor in determing which healer to bring.

[Kelesti]

I'm confused as to how disc is more mana efficient.

I would think Holy Concentration/Evangelism/Chakra/Surge of Light makes holy more mana efficient.

Holy Concentration + Chakra and you sort of have a point. Tossing in Surge of Light and Evangelism makes it giggle worthy though. Surge of Light is moot because both specs have access to it, and trigger it with ease. Discipline more so, infact, because of the shorter cast time on Smite compared to Heal.

Evangelism/Archangel? Really? It's a "break even" mechanic for Discipline that counts for healing output thanks to Atonement. While Holy can certainly pretend to use the talents, putting them to actual use is very restricting both in time and basic encounters.

Compare Holy Concentration and free Renew Sustainment from Heal Chakra to...
Evangelism/Archangel, Rapture, and increased Intellect gains from Enlightenment. That's a better comparison.

Holy's aoe is superior to disc.

You mean a 10 second cooldown that heals for 6% of a person's health and costs way too much proportionally? Or do you mean the 17k mana bomb that is Sanctuary?

Holy's throughput is better.

First: Numbers pass is still numbers pass. Second: Applying it on a spell by spell basis is completely retarded. Yes, I said it; it's retarded. As for the "total package", Discipline's throughput is quite comparable. Atonement has a higher coefficient than Heal does. Shields add a depth that Renew can't.

Disc's damage will not be the deciding factor in determing which healer to bring.

No. But Chakra/Tree of Life/Telluric Currents or Cleansing Waters/Protector of the Innocent don't decide which healer to bring either.

It's something folded into the spec. So long as the spec as a whole works, it's fine. Discipline, as a whole, works. It needs some bugs folded out, but it works.

While Discipline's damage will not be the deciding factor ("usually", as top 100's racing for those kills could disagree when they're rushing berserk timers) the player and not the spec will be the "deciding factor in determining which healer to bring". That goes for all healers, thank Goddess.

[TorcidaThrall]

Holy Concentration + Chakra and you sort of have a point. Tossing in Surge of Light and Evangelism makes it giggle worthy though. Surge of Light is moot because both specs have access to it, and trigger it with ease. Discipline more so, infact, because of the shorter cast time on Smite compared to Heal.

Evangelism/Archangel? Really? It's a "break even" mechanic for Discipline that counts for healing output thanks to Atonement. While Holy can certainly pretend to use the talents, putting them to actual use is very restricting both in time and basic encounters.

Compare Holy Concentration and free Renew Sustainment from Heal Chakra to...
Evangelism/Archangel, Rapture, and increased Intellect gains from Enlightenment. That's a better comparison.
You mean a 10 second cooldown that heals for 6% of a person's health and costs way too much proportionally? Or do you mean the 17k mana bomb that is Sanctuary?
First: Numbers pass is still numbers pass. Second: Applying it on a spell by spell basis is completely retarded. Yes, I said it; it's retarded. As for the "total package", Discipline's throughput is quite comparable. Atonement has a higher coefficient than Heal does. Shields add a depth that Renew can't.

No. But Chakra/Tree of Life/Telluric Currents or Cleansing Waters/Protector of the Innocent don't decide which healer to bring either.

It's something folded into the spec. So long as the spec as a whole works, it's fine. Discipline, as a whole, works. It needs some bugs folded out, but it works.

While Discipline's damage will not be the deciding factor ("usually", as top 100's racing for those kills could disagree when they're rushing berserk timers) the player and not the spec will be the "deciding factor in determining which healer to bring". That goes for all healers, thank Goddess.

+1 For Insightful Post.

Care. Incoming Healing Rain.

[cruxxy]

"Bring the player not the class/spec" - that's fine and all in concept, but there is not a single guild who would have brought a BM hunter to their HLK grind, no matter what kind of player he/she was.

I know this is a "we'll see" question. Without shield spam though, I see nothing unique a Disc priest brings to a raid except PWB. This isn't a scaling issue (which is actively in flux).

In a fast kill attempt, replacing a disc priest with a pure DPS would be much more effective. And will the healing the Disc priest brought really be missed?

There are many who play with good people to have fun and there is less focus on min/maxing. But for raids where "progression" is a relevant word, I see all healing priests going holy.

I'm sure after a couple major patches, Disc will find its raiding niche. In its current construction though, I only see it as a "fun" spec with a 5man focus.

[Repo123]

Compare Holy Concentration and free Renew Sustainment from Heal Chakra to...
Evangelism/Archangel, Rapture, and increased Intellect gains from Enlightenment. That's a better comparison.

If you're going to include Enlightment, you should include Spiritual Healing as well. One could argue that in addtion to the increased throughput that Spiritual Healing provides, it also works as being more mana efficient since less heals would be required since the heals are larger to begin with.

I do believe disc will be viable as a tank healer. I just don't see disc as the number 2 or 3 choice in any other role. I hope I'm wrong.

[Daggy1111]

Thing is(and this is only what I saw on beta so take it with a grain of salt) disc actually brings a fair bit of dps while they heal. If you use your cds well(sheild em, get some smites off, then pen to heal em back up) you end up being about 1/5 of a dps, but still a full healer. Now it is true you have a little less aoe healing then holy, but thats made up in barrier most times. Plus reflect damage from your sheild can add up quick as hell over the course of a fight. Now add on to that your heals lower the weaken soul debuff, and that means more sheilds on your main heal target. Now it is true that in stright heals it is the weakest of all the healers, but thats nothing new as you also basicly stop about a third of all the damage the tank takes anyways. Although there is still some numbers to tweek, overall I like were the spec is going, and I think the whole damage dealing healer thing is actually an awsome idea.

[rboa]

How does disc compensate for no +hit? Doesn't that shoot the dps side of things in the foot?

[Repo123]

If you're taking the two talents for reflective shield, what are you giving up as a result? I'm not sure I'm going to take that as a pvp talent.

[Daggy1111]

How does disc compensate for no +hit? Doesn't that shoot the dps side of things in the foot?

Glyph of divine accurecy, its plus 18% hit for smite.

[raivyne]

Right now on PTR I have 3832 SP and pretty good gear. Healing is not different really than from live. Mana regen is still ridiculously high and heals hit the same as on live.

On beta I have 5000+ SP, I'm level 85, everyone has 80k+ health, mobs hit 3x as hard and my heals do pretty much the exact same as they do in PTR.

The smite mechanic is OK, but the heal does half as much as a flash and takes longer to cast. It is nice that it seems to heal multiple targets.

I honestly don't think mana would be as much an issues if heals were higher.

Anyone else on beta seeing the same thing?