New Dispels

[Bit]

Cleansing Totem being removed?!

DK PARTY AT MY PLACE! *takes out kegs*

...

But seriously though....Cleansing Totem was OP >.>

I don't mind the DK diseases being dispellable, but having a totem do it for you and not even have to worry about manually doing it (for your whole group no less) was a bit overkill.

Ya, OP mister? Are we talking about PESTILENCE ? Spreading ALL diseases on ALL targets in 15 yards is OP, not cleansing using totem. 'I don't mind the DK diseases being spreadable, but having just 1 key do it for you and not even have to worry about manually doing it(because it's part of rotation/saving runes/keeping diseases on main target) (for all targets in the range) IS a bit overkill'
End of story.
./topic

[Ronix]

From a more recent blue post, it looks like they're on the fence with purge as well. (in terms of dps shamans having it)

Anyone else really not give a crap about curses?

[Instant]

Blue post said very clearly that the goal is for every healing class to have 3 of the 5 possible dispells. Previously shamans had four, which is more than any other class. It's obvious nerf, but it's more obviously a balance thing.

Blizz will try to balance everything as close to possible before Cataclysm ships, so yes, it's too early to go out with "the sky is falling" complaints when probably about 1% of all shaman class changes are out in the open, and still subject to change.

You missed patches 3.2 and 3.3 where shaman dps was buffed significantly to be on par with other hybrids? At least I'm happy to have competitive dps in single target fights, depending on rng even topping dk's and rogues in pure tank & spank fight like Saurfang. Only thing missing is some survivability and bit of help against multiple targets, and PvE would be peachy.

We had four, because we didnt have MOST IMPORTANT one, which is magic. So it was fair in Wotlk.

Patch 3.2 and 3.3 brought dps increase, which is still worst of all hybrids in most fights. And yes, 50 logs are way better than one random guy on forum saying 'dps is fine.

Priests can't remove poisons. Priests can't remove more than one type of non-magic debuffs (diseases). Learn to read tard.

Yes, because priest doesnt have Body and Soul talent, which does :

When you cast Power Word : Shield you inrease a target's movement speed by Y% for 4 seconds, and you have X% chance when you cast Abolish Disease on yourself to also cleanse 1 poison effect in addition to diseases.

So, screw you 'tard'.

[vesseblah]

We had four, because we didnt have MOST IMPORTANT one, which is magic. So it was fair in Wotlk.

4 > 3 in all but troll math books. No matter how you try to twist it, shamans had more dispells than any other class, and it needed a change for balance's sake.

Yes, because priest doesnt have Body and Soul talent, which does :

Body & Soul is is PvP only talent, has medium cooldown and can't be used others. So no, priests can not remove poisons from anybody in PvE, not even themselves unless they spec like idiots and even then usually after the poison has ticked full duration because the cooldown is so long.

[Sarevokcz]

4 > 3 in all but troll math books. No matter how you try to twist it, shamans had more dispells than any other class, and it needed a change for balance's sake.

Body & Soul is is PvP only talent, has medium cooldown and can't be used others. So no, priests can not remove poisons from anybody in PvE, not even themselves unless they spec like idiots and even then usually after the poison has ticked full duration because the cooldown is so long.

4>3 tard. you just told shaman that they had more debuffing abilities, so it has to be balanced, yet when priests have it (in SOME way, doesnt matter if it in good place, since dps shaman didnt have 4 dispells too), you are okay with it ?

your logic << monkey logic

[Kelesti]

4>3 tard. you just told shaman that they had more debuffing abilities, so it has to be balanced, yet when priests have it (in SOME way, doesnt matter if it in good place, since dps shaman didnt have 4 dispells too), you are okay with it ?

your logic << monkey logic

Saying Priests have a poison cleanse is like saying in live Shaman have a Curse removal. Elemental doesn't. Enhancement sure as hell doesn't. One spec does. The difference with Priests is that one spec isn't even PvP viable at this point.

[Omanley]

The QQ is strong in this one. Shamans were buffed several times as well. Without further information on how debuffs and dispells are going to work in Cataclysm, you might want to hold your bucket full of tears to yourself a little bit longer.

when were shamans in general buffed in pvp the last time? back up your claim at least if you want to prove your point. and what´s this 0815 remark about QQ? i merely listed the accurate pvp totem history throughout wow.

Good chance is good, imo. We all get a defensive dispel which makes it easier to design PvE encounters and at the same time hopefully these changes will lead to a more decision-based dispelling in PvP, rather then the dispel-is-always-good "gameplay" we have now.

wrong. RESTORATION will get a defensive dispel. shaman in general will lose poison/disease dispell, alongside cleansing totem. and dispell, which is enhancements strongest weapon in pvp ( no class depends on offensive dispell as muchin pvp as an enhancement shaman ) is now more expensive in mana. coupled with the lower mana pool in cataclysm i foresee 4 purge => oom situations. and while it´s true purge is a no brainer atm, many classes can counter or even ignore it ( or simply resist it ). say what you want, dispell isn´t broken ( neither positively or negatively ) right now, so why nerfing it?.

The changes will certainly hurt if rogues/dks don't get any chance whatsoever. I doubt that's the case.

Edit: I actually suspect nerfs to rogue poisons, as I've seen various Blue comments on how the devs don't like how some specs (like Enh Shamans and Rogues) do so much damage just by rightclicking a target once.

i dont get this. rogues are already dominating us with a high amount of cooldowns, high passive evade, and a fast rate of racking up poisons. as rogues were blizzards most favourite since release, and shamans the black child since late vanilla ( or even before ), i find it hard to believe rogues get nerfed hard enough for us to have a realistic chance against them ( especially 1on1 ), not after more than 5years of blizzard character skill design.

Edit 2: Dispelling is much more fun when it's a choice between:

1) dispel and prevent damage, but risks going /oom sooner or risk backlash effects or whatever.
2) don't dispel and make your teammate take damage, try to heal thorugh it but avoid the negative effects of the dispel.

both options are for restoration exclusively. enhancement and elemental both have no proper silence and stun effects, in terms of enhancement no dependable burst, no mortal strike effect, not even a killing blow skill.
the only thing we have to pressure a healer is offensive dispellspam, which they are easily able to counter without the right gameplay.

The devs even say so in the announcement, dispelling currently is a no-brainer because the cost is so low. Expect the cost to go up through a variety of ways (mana cost, backlash effects, what have you).

the devs are talking about it, so what? purge spam is a no brainer, yes. but the purged classes simply refresh their buffs right away so it´s a no brainer on their part as well, isn´t it? a resto druid for example simply spams life bloom if you go up against him. there you have it, you have to use your BRAIN and stop purging, because any further purge will instant heal your target. so you have to decide between oom-ing the druid or trying your best getting your target down. other classes have dispell resists ( have fun removing a paladins melee bubble in arena ).rogues are now brainers as well. simply stunlock whenever possible and spam mutilate. use your cooldowns when you need them. that´s it.

Crying about changes due to PvP are really petty imo. I don't PvP much, if at all, but I understand that PvP is where the balance is at. If PvP is balanced it's easy to make PvE work.

so you´re one of those I-dont-do-pvp-but-i-know-it-better-than-you guys, hm? i´ve got >70k hk´s and 2.1k rating 3on3, but you surely know what you´re talking about, right?

Stop crying and stop comparing current content to future mechanics.

stop talking about stuff you do not understand, and start realizing that this situation happens now for the 3rd time ( and in the previous two times, as well as across the total game time, we were disappointed time after time. )

[vesseblah]

4>3 tard. you just told shaman that they had more debuffing abilities, so it has to be balanced, yet when priests have it (in SOME way, doesnt matter if it in good place, since dps shaman didnt have 4 dispells too), you are okay with it ?

Currently:
DPS priests have 3 dispels, DPS shamans have 3 dispels. -> balanced
Badly specced healing priests have 4 dispels, correctly specced healing shamans have 4 dispels. -> not
balanced, since priest needs shit spec for theoretical 4th dispel.

Blue post on front page says every healing spec will have 3 dispels in cataclysm, which implies priests will not have access to poison dispel from Body & Soul talent either. I really do not see anything else but balance in that statement.

your logic << monkey logic

When your strongest argument against basic reasoning is calling people monkeys or tards, you've already proved your mental age is smaller than your shoe size.

[M1kra]

i was about to post about just this subject:

Now i used to play a shaman during bc .. *re rolled from warrior and when wotlk came out i went back to prot/fury warr as my main .. i din't like the forced to do more spell damage on proc idea.*

But it was hard enough as enhance/ele to fight a rogue then. I've barely touched my shaman during wotlk so i may be off base on this, however. If this above from blizz is just Cleansing spell itself it won't be too horrible .. but if they are also taking away the totem how the hell are shaman supposed to be able to fight a rogue without being able to remove their poisons??

I leveld my shaman in wotlk since he's my alch toon but with this change on a pvp server it's going to be near impossible to kill a rogue that jumps you unless you are grouped with someone while you level or a resto and even without being able to remove poisons makes it extremely easy for a rogue to kill one.

crippling .. not going anywhere even with earthbind totem. mind numbing .. enjoy not getting a cast off .. ever. and wounding if you do manage to get that 13241431324 second cast off .. it's not healing for spit.

Seriously i am really hoping that they just mean the cast spell itself and leaving the totem alone. What's an enhance or ele sham suposed to do while leveling on a pvp server other than just be again a free hk to a rogue?

UPDATE:

In Cataclysm we are raising the mana costs, making it possible to waste mana by casting a dispel when there is nothing to dispel, and removing Cleansing Totem, Abolish Disease, and Abolish Poison from the game.

SOURCE: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/27/2403...mechanics.html

YEP NO MORE CLEANSING TOTEM .. shaman just became an easy free hk for rogues.

Priests never had a spell to remove Poison, so they are as weak as Shamans versus Rogues. I don't see any problem with that.

[Omanley]

you cant attach the word "balanced" at a 4>3 comparison.

priests have shields, instant fears, instant casts, hots, mass dispell ( which removes bubbles/iceblock, and can pretty much be counted as an additional dispell, which also works aoe ) and many other stuff.

shaman have earthshield, riptide, totems etc.


you cant say: "now every healer has the same amount of debuffs/buffs he can dispell, so now it´s balanced."

fact: shaman in general is the plainest class ingame. we were originally designed as a buffbot ( 50% of our spells were totems, now it´s ~40% ).

with a huge part of our abilities being totems, and other abilities being ability clusters as well ( imbues, shields, shocks ), shaman have very few individual, independent spells, of which many are mostly useless ( waterwalk/breath, farseeing, astral recall... )

if there is one ability aside from wind shear(and it was useless until it was taken out of the shock-ability cluster), that is very good for pvp, it´ll be purge. if you "stop whining, pussies"-retards still dont get how much this nerf actually affects us, dont bother us taking you serious.

[fwc577]

Fine with it as long as they announce some stuff tomorrow that makes Shaman deadly in PvP. Don't get me wrong, poison and disease clensing were godsends but I think I'd rather be able to do well without them then to totally rely on having those clenses rolling or be toast.

Enhancement shamans need to feel more threatening when one is running at you like an arms warrior is when he charges.

As for getting dispel magic for friendly allies? Eh who cares, I don't think I'm going to ever heal in arena again. Double or tripple dps teams sounds so much more exciting.

Your assuming that they are going to give us something to make us more competitive without them. This was a massive nerf to shaman vs rogues. As a shaman I could often escape from rogues by continually dropping cleansing totem while doing everything in my power to slow them down and stop them myself and escape. I can't even imagine what its going to be like going toe to toe with a rogue without some further massive changes and with the way the shaman class has been treated in the past my hopes aren't very high for a good outcome.

[Gunwolf]

Gotta agree with Omanley on a few points there, especially about Shaman being a very underdeveloped class.

Talking about resto specifically, they are ridiculously easy to train since they have zero escapes. No ability to root someone in place like natures grasp, fear them away like priests, or stun like paladin. Our stoneclaw shield is a joke, trying to get hex off when your focused is even more of a joke.....hex which is going to be greatly nerfed. Can't use against druids, who can cleanse it off their allies, other resto shamans who can cancel your CC, and a long cooldown which makes it frustrating, compared to say druid cyclone.

Two changes I really hope they make are instant hex and Shamanistic Rage being available for all 3 classes, and a new dps burst cd for enhance in its place.

Enhance feels far more underdeveloped. Compare the complexity of DK talents versus enhance and you can see the disparity. We still have stuff like toughness as it's own talent, instead of baked into other talents. Purge versus priests indirectly does more damage then most of my other attacks. In PvP we lack major buffs, even ones we can bring ourselves (str of earth, windfury) because we gotta use other totems to survive.

Getting off topic though, could go on forever about how enhance is neglected.

When I made the point about priests and body/soul....it doesnt really matter if that certain spec is inferior for PvP healing, but since Blizzard let them keep that it ackowledges that poisions are very prevalent and a threat to that spec....maybe discipline is better designed to handle poisions or classes that deal poision dmg (hunters/rogues), and so holy needs the handicap.....but who is to say that resto doesn't need that same handicap?

I for one think we definetly do need poision cleanse, I would gladly trade curse for poision.....I honestly do not find curses to be all that bad, only one class really uses it.....compared to rogues and hunters who have an assload of poisions at their disposal, including some with CC effects like crip or wyvern sting. Also, I can think of WAY more times that I have found myself useful in a PvE dungeon or raid because I could instantly cleanse that aoe poisoin then an aoe curse or something.

[Abandon]

We had four, because we didnt have MOST IMPORTANT one, which is magic. So it was fair in Wotlk.

Patch 3.2 and 3.3 brought dps increase, which is still worst of all hybrids in most fights. And yes, 50 logs are way better than one random guy on forum saying 'dps is fine.

Yes, because priest doesnt have Body and Soul talent, which does :

When you cast Power Word : Shield you inrease a target's movement speed by Y% for 4 seconds, and you have X% chance when you cast Abolish Disease on yourself to also cleanse 1 poison effect in addition to diseases.

So, screw you 'tard'.

I love how people mention this. They all seem to focus on the fact that there is a talent down the end of the worst PVP tree that lets you remove a poison from yourself at most, once every 14 seconds. These same people are the ones who are really quick to point out that Resto is the Shaman talent tree that is getting more dispel options.

You are really going to hate it when I point out that I can remove crippling poison as Shadow as well using Fade

[Omanley]

you can sum up shaman talents in one sentence.

we have to make up for our baseline ability screw ups with talents.
why, you think, i say that? easy.

you can divide any class into several factors, which would be:
melee abilities, dmg casts, healing casts, buffs, passive abilities ( passive stat/attribute buffs, chances to evade, procs etc ), unique abilities ( things that are iconic for your class, and usually play a central role of your class ) and miscellaneous ( rezzes, dispells and emergency cooldowns etc). now for the shaman baseline abilities for each:

melee abilities: none. every melee ability we have, we get through talents ( stormstrike/lavalash ). the only other class with a melee spec with the same problem are paladins. however, even those have it much better. crusader strike (4 sec cd with a 2h) vs lavalash (6sec cd with a oh), stormstrike (8sec cd with both weapons single target, no extra dmg) vs divine storm ( 10 sec cd, 2h attack for 10% extra weapon dmg against up to 4 targets, heals you and others ). the other melee hybrid (ferals) have a huge arsenal of melee abilities only they use.

dmg casts: six. 3 shocks, which share the same cooldown ( elemental wouldn´t use even one of them, if it werent for lavaburst ), 2 lightnings and lavaburst ( which we have since 3.0 only, and isn´t usable with maelstrom weap ). except shocks, none of these abilities are instant ( except with elemental mastery or maelstrom weapons ).

healing casts: three. a long heal, a short heal, and a chain heal ( hay guyz, shaman should have 3 healz at least, so why dont we give them another chain-spell, to save time and proceed with the other classes? ). everyone of them is interruptable and unless you´re a caster spec, you heal for crap with them (especially with ms on).

buffs: four. waterwalk & waterbreathing (uuuuuuh), lightning shield (useless unless you spec into static shock) and watershield ( needed three changes or so to be actually usefull for casters, and is pretty much a passive mp5; exitiiiiiiiiiing )

passive abilities: five. the pretty much only apartment we rock ( a little ) aside from uniques. rock biter ( useless at the point you get wf, and totally boring ( hey, i do more dmg with autohits, yessssss )), windfury ( 70% of enh depends on this proc :P ) flametongue ( passive spellpower for ele, duh :X and additional fire dmg each offhand hit ) frostbrand ( never used outside of pvp, and even there only by enhance and not by everyone.

unique abilities: our totems maaaaaaaaaaaaaaany. one shottable by holy priest melee hits ( tremor destroyed before every fear yaaaaay ), unmovable, limited through elemental brackets ( pvp totems are all earth, especially after cleansing and fire nova totem removal ), cant use pve buffs together with pvp totems and nerf afte rnerf to anything that could piss of any class in any situation you might encounter in pvp. oh, and we have sentry totem wiiiiiiiiiin.

miscellaneous: six. farseeing ( omg, it´s so op : ), purge ( gets a nerf, currently most useful pvp ability we have ), wind shear ( interrupt on range, pretty nice ( didn´t have before the very end of ulduar though )), bloodlust ( the main reason there was a shaman present at lk kill and shaman still are present in high rated arena teams ) ghostwolf ( the worse in almost every kind of way version of druid travelform ) and hex ( the worst cc ingame aside from intimidating shout of warriors )

in my opinion blizz should give abilities like thunderstorm, wolves, earthshield, riptide , elemental mastery, frozen power, earthern power and shamanistic rage, which are obviously good for any of our three specs, baseline.

and lavaburst can be made a finisher ability for low health. would be great for any shaman in pvp and elemental would be easier itemised with another spell instead ( dot maybe, or another casts, maybe an instant, dunno )