Holy Pally Chest Enchant

[Firecrest]

Got a new chest the other day. A sidegrade. So I was trying to decide if it was worth the cost of gemming and enchanting it. Gems are easy due to my professions, but 10 Stats to chest is still somewhat expensive.

Anyhow, it got me thinking about going with a different chest enchant and I came to the conclusion that 10 Stats isn't even the best one to use anymore since I haven't Plea'ed on CD in a long long time. Assuming even a relatively high Plea usage of three times in a six minute fight, 10 MP5 gives more mana back than 10 Stats or 250 mana.

In a six minute fight, you get:

10 MP5 = 10 MP5 [720 mana]

250 Mana = ~8.58 MP5 [618 mana] (250 starting mana plus 188 regened by 3 Pleas plus 180 regened by replenishment)

10 Stats = ~6.22 MP5 [448 mana] (182 starting mana plus 136 regened by 3 Pleas plus 130 regened by replenishment)

This, of course, puts no weight on the Stam, SP and Crit gained from 10 Stats. Weigh that as you will, but I've switched to 10 MP5.


Edit:
Uniformity in numbers, total mana gained and clarification on fight duration.

[Bob002]

Head, chest, and shoulder enchants are one area where I feel that it's essentially "enchant whatever you like" (within reason, of course. I'm not talking AP/Crit on a holy paladin).

Granted, I'm a fan of making sure of doing things right, but the differences (as you just illustrated for chests) are very miniscule when you look at it in the grand scheme of things.

[Deleted]

Even though 10MP5 is the better option when it comes to pure regen, I'd still value and recommend the +10 stat enchant. As you said, due to SP, Crit and so on, but also that it benefits from BoK and other stat % increases (talents).

Anyways. I play priest. I'll be silent now.

Edit: typo.

[Asrialol]

Fire, a small question. You value regen a lot, but you still use SP enchants on wrist / weapon. How come?

Anyway, I got a new chest a few days back, the Mail of Crimson Coins from Valanyr 25HC. I enchanted it with 10 stats. I usually use the 250 mana enchant, but I fancied trying out 10 stats. It's such a small difference anyway, some regen versus some increase in stats.

I must confess that 6mp5, 10stam, a spellpower or two and some crit seems more useful to me than 10mp5 flat. 110 extra health could be useful. (Not that I aim for stamina in pve.)

I think it's a matter or personal preference, really. One can't say "10 mp5 on chest is the wrong enchant", or the same with the others.

[Ronark]

Fire, a small question. You value regen a lot, but you still use SP enchants on wrist / weapon. How come?

Per point the SP on weapon and wrist is valued higher than Int enchants on each.

Just to clarify with your OP Fire, you factored in Kings and Divine Int with your +10 Stats calc, right? I know its only 1 point of Stamina and 2.1 extra Intellect, but it'd be nice to know that they were included in your math.


Hopefully we can re-visit this on the 16th, if we can get a Spirit to Mana Regen estimation from the new Holy tree.

[Ryme]

Oddly enough I've gone the other way, I've been a regen whore since 3.2 but right now I'm comfortable with my regen in combat that I'm starting to boost my mana bar again. Perhaps I should go down the throughput side of things but that's a whole other topic.

I've essentially been playing a zig-zag style gearing process where I boost my regen until it copes with my mana bar, then increase my mana bar and then push my regen to meet it.

It's odd and probably not recommended, but there you go.

To be honest, in this late stage of gameplay, I'm not sure the difference in one, two or maybe even three enchants is going to make a noticeable difference.

[Firecrest]

I did factor in Kings to the 10 Stat math. Of course. :P

I used 6 minutes as the time of the fight, as this is pretty much a given average. However, the longer the fight, the more it favors 10 MP5. The shorter the fight, the more heavily favored 250 mana and 10 Stats becomes. This is due do the starting mana provided by both of these enchants. Numbers for these will also go up the more heavily you rely on Plea. Even if you Plea on CD though, neither will reach 10 MP5 outside of unrealistic scenarios (ie: a 15 second fight with Plea up the whole time).

It is very small numbers we're talking about here. However, as always, I believe there is one right way to do things and then just different shades of wrong. While there are some scenarios and situations that 10 Stats would be the way to go, I think that 10 MP5 is the more universally appropriate pick. And unless you are planning on doing a whole bunch of very short fights, 250 mana is universally inferior (then again, if you're doing such short fights, who needs regen?).

The change that I believe has enabled a shift from 10 Stats to 10 MP5 was actually my whole point in posting this. Higher gear levels have allowed us to look at Plea in a different light. It used to be how we got mana back. And it was just assumed that we would be running at half capacity 1/4 of the time we were in combat. We looked to Trinkets to offset the debuff. Now the debuff is rarely an issue. Not because of offsets, but because (if you're doing it right), you don't have to use the ability hardly at all. Making it much easier to time your Plea usage to coincide with periods of low healing.

In short: We used to Plea a lot more, but now we don't have to. When we Plea'ed often 10 Stats was giving us more like 8 MP5 Plus some Stam, Crit and SP - at which point in time it was more worthwhile.

Fire, a small question. You value regen a lot, but you still use SP enchants on wrist / weapon. How come?

The point difference is too great to ignore. To put it in perspective, enchanting your wrist and weapon with SP is basically like taking two of your Int gems and trading them in for four SP gems. Is that something you'd want to do to all your Int gems? Hell no. But if you can get such a great deal out of trading in just a couple, why wouldn't you? I also have a Val'anyr and run in a raid that has three others. So the overhealing downside of SP is somewhat diminished in my case.

[Fizzlebeard]

I've been going back and forth between 10MP5 and 10Stats since Ulduar. The regen levels of both enchants have always been on similar levels, even when pleaing much the advantage of Stats wasn't that big. The reason why I almost always go back to 10Stats is the 100 health it gives. I don't know how many times I've been stuck on ~100 health after being hit by something on accident on the different hardmodes. The hardmodes toss out a lot of damage, and combinations can get you killed quickly (mostly because of someones (AKA mine) mistakes). When the regen is similar, I go for the enchant that gives me some survivability.

[Firecrest]

Oddly enough I've gone the other way, I've been a regen whore since 3.2 but right now I'm comfortable with my regen in combat that I'm starting to boost my mana bar again. Perhaps I should go down the throughput side of things but that's a whole other topic.

Why would you want to boost your mana bar if not for the regen?

Everything we do comes down to two things. Regen or Throughput. These are our cores and there is nothing else. So if you increase any stat, you're boosting one or the other of these stats (or both, in the case of Crit). You seem to imply that you're somehow boosting your stats but not increasing either of these two cores. Which, unless you've found some hidden third core, is quite impossible.


Edit:
I suppose you could make a case for Haste being a third core at times when you find yourself healing reactively (raid healing with Beacon on tank for example). But I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

[Firecrest]

I don't know how many times I've been stuck on ~100 health after being hit by something on accident on the different hardmodes.

I bet it's a lot less than you think (I hope it's an exceedingly rare occurrence, at least!). Personally, I can say I've never been sub 100 health and not died. Every other week or so, I'll see someone come back from a couple hundred health. But double digits? I can't recall any. I put this down so people could value what they're trading. In this case you're trading 4 MP5 for 10 Stam by going with 10 Stats (the SP and Crit are so minuscule as to be hardly worth mentioning, even in this exercise). Is that a good trade? I wouldn't take it myself, but some people would, I suppose.

I still believe one of these three options is right and the other two are wrong. It will be circumstantially dependent though. I'm just thinking that the circumstances favoring 10 MP5 will occur more often than 10 Stats and those favoring 250 Mana will almost never occur at all.

[Fizzlebeard]

I bet it's a lot less than you think (I hope it's an exceedingly rare occurrence, at least!). Personally, I can say I've never been sub 100 health and not died. Every other week or so, I'll see someone come back from a couple hundred health. But double digits? I can't recall any.

You don't look very carefully at the digits when you see yourself that low, so it was probably (way?) above 100. But we are making tiny change here. It's not like the 4MP5 you get changing your chestenchant will save you from going OOM. It's all tiny upgrades working together to allow you to do something better than before. In that regard, would you rather have 4MP5 or 10 Sta (and some crit/SP)? A slightly less (almost neglegible) chance of going OOM or a slightly less (almost neglegible) chance of dying? It might be totally fight dependant though; Freya+3? Stats Algalon? MP5 etc.

Your point about "occuring more often" is a nice one though. Maybe the times 100 health saves you are much much less then the times you end the fight with <400 mana.

I am positive that 250 Mana is wrong. It is only good on freak short fights, and then mana is of no importance anyway.

[Ryme]

Why would you want to boost your mana bar if not for the regen?

'Cos it looks cool.

I wasn't very clear there, I know. Where I said regen, I meant Mp5. A clearer way to imagine things is I'm an idiot and bored between balancing Mp5 and epic mana bars for my regen.

[Asrialol]

You said you counted in Divine Plea and Replenishment. What about Seal of Wisdom procs from judging / Meele'ing, Mana Tide, Divine Hymn, Arcane Torrent? Wouldn't that increase the regen gained from 10 stats / 250 mana? In a 25man raid enviroment, you usually have Mana tide and Divine Hymn. So I believe it would be worth checking that out.

If anything it increases the mp5 by a few points, maybe enough to outweigh 10mp5?

[Firecrest]

You said you counted in Divine Plea and Replenishment. What about Seal of Wisdom procs from judging / Meele'ing, Mana Tide, Divine Hymn, Arcane Torrent? Wouldn't that increase the regen gained from 10 stats / 250 mana? In a 25man raid enviroment, you usually have Mana tide and Divine Hymn. So I believe it would be worth checking that out.

If anything it increases the mp5 by a few points, maybe enough to outweigh 10mp5?

I thought about these and did do the math on them. Combined they did not even add up to a full 1 MP5, however. Even exagerated use of SoW only came to like 0.4 MP5 when combined with AT. I didn't go any further than that (ie: Mana Tide, etc) since people may or may not have access to these things on every fight and I wanted to keep it basic. If you wanted to assume a "best case scenario" as it were, you could probably add in another 0.6 to 0.8 MP5.

[kenneth044]

Did you remember to calculate SoW+melee hit into account? As I know on bosses like Festergut, I have a few seconds were I can actually land a few hits.

[Firecrest]

Did you remember to calculate SoW+melee hit into account? As I know on bosses like Festergut, I have a few seconds were I can actually land a few hits.

See above.

[kenneth044]

See above.

My mistake

[Lark]

You guys are OCDing over very, very small numbers unlikely to have even the slightest impact on any combat situation. His analysis at the top is probably as far as you should go. (Though worrying about gold is rather sad)

Also dang, plague scientists boots. Your cloth casters must be unreal stupid to let you pick those up.

[Taygete]

Also dang, plague scientists boots. Your cloth casters must be unreal stupid to let you pick those up.

I hate it when people pee in my cereal too.

Interesting thread!

[Raiss]

It's quite simple, actually. +10 Mp5 is more expensive than +10 int. I used to use it on my ToC chest, but I changed it for ICC because I thought that, with all AoE dmg, some stamina could be useful afterall.

If you ignore the +10 stamina bonus (I must admit, it's not that useful), the mp5 enchant is stronger, even with buffs and talents that benefit from int. But again, its not a huge diference, you can run +10 int or +10 mp5, the only one that does not make sense is +250 mana, since it will give less mana regen than mp5 and less sp/crit than +10 int.