Prot tank: Pillars of Might or Sanctified/Lightsworn Legguards

[Offhand]

Your current level of avoidance does not impact how many additional attacks the activation of the bonus is likely to cause you to avoid, thats been stated about 15 times so far from different angles in this thread.

Your side is stating "yea but the % of fewer hits taken does change". This is absolutely correct. However concluding that this somehow "increases the effectiveness" of the bonus is not.

It's been stated a number of times, it hasn't been demonstrated .

Now if you compare this to the damage intake over a period of time you will, yes, see that the 12% avoidance results in you taking less damage if your amount of damage taken is lower. This doesn't need to be avoidance though, it could be armor.

To put numbers to it:

Tank A takes 50,000 damage in a period of time
Tank B takes 80,000 damage in a period of time

The 4 pc causes 1 attack to be avoided that would have hit for 10k on average

The 4pc causes Tank A to take 20% less damage
The 4pc causes Tank B to take 12.5% less damage

Ya'll are arguing that therefore the bonus is more valuable to Tank A, note that the reason that Tank A takes less damage does not matter, it could be higher avoidance, more armor, more block, whatever.

There certainly is merit to this argument, and if we were taking about long periods of time, i.e. large sample sizes, i would likely agree with it. However we are not.

We are talking about strings on the order over 7-10 hits because the duration of the bonus combined with the swing speeds in ICC result in such numbers.

In this case the fundamental issue, and where this all started is that the likelihood of the 4pc bonus doing absolutely nothing is very high. To put numbers to it:

Chance the 4pc bonus will cause no avoids, aka be useless
7 hits : 40.87%
8 hits : 35.96%
9 hits : 31.65%
10 hits : 27.85%

For me the discussion stops there. I'm never going to value something when 27-40% of the time i activate it and it does nothing at all. Thats almost not worth losing a HS CD to activate honestly.

Except that's obviously not the case. We've already shown that avoidance is multiplicative, and that evaluating the 4 piece without taking a look at the rest of your gear is silly. People don't stop gearing for EH in the majority of their loot when they grab the 4 piece. The difference doesn't exceed more then 1k health and you get a cooldown, it's a fairly easy trade. You're pretending the that the chance your avoidance does nothing is erroneously high. Even after it was shown otherwise.

The fundamental flaw with the position i laid out with tank A and tank B is that its all based on chance, that is the difference in the damage input as a result of a 12% flat increase in avoidance can be calculated and yes its higher for a tank with more avoidance/armor but that is an AVERAGE and is not predictable without a very large sample size. The bonus is inherently tied to a very small sample size and as such you will likely see wide variation in performance.

With small sample sizes often more important is the worst and best case scenarios and how often they occur. One of the reasons we gear for EH is to deal with worst case scenarios and survive (hit strings). When a bonus's worst case is "does nothing" and it happens 27% to 40% of the time i don't consider that useful at all.

So in the end, boss swings for variable amount of damage, if it happens to be high several times in a row then your slight EH difference meant nothing as well. It's easy to claim that all boss damage is the same, but watch your own incoming damage during a fight, the number can change usually by several thousand. RNG effects all tank damage, avoidance normally gets painted as the only thing that is.

It's a pointless argument. There are tanks that would take 1 stamina over 100 dodge rating. It's hard trying to convince people to gear correctly when it might effect their health-peen.

[MerinPally]

Been wondering something like this myself recently. Currently have 5/5 T10 basic level sitting in bank kinda useless, soon to get tokens to upgrade. Now i remember reading somewhere that in 277 gear (which i reckon we will have access to in say a month) to go for 4/5 and get the Hat, Chest, Gloves and Legs, with gunship 25hc shoulders.

Now im looking around and seeing that people are going for Hat, Shoulders, Chest, Gloves and then Pillars of Might (Lazeil for example) - am wondering which has finally been decided upon as best? So i know whether its time to get Pillars crafted in preparation for this.

[balloonknot]

Since you didn't calculate your "chance for fail" before the 4 set bonus, I did it for you:
0.574 ^ 10 = 0.0038, or 0.38%.

"Chance for fail" with the 4 set bonus:
0.454 ^ 10 = 0.00037, or 0.037%.

The chance to fail he calculated was actually the chance of a 10 hit string occurring.

One way to look at this is that without the bonus up you are 10.27 times more likely to not get hit 10 times in a row.

Sounds good, but your looking at really with really small numbers.

Put it this way:

If your parsing logs and wanted to identify the difference between these two number with a margin of error of 0.343% (the minimum error to possibly see the difference and likely you'd want half that) and 99% confidence it would require ~141446 samples. Assuming 10 attacks per bonus activation you would need to activate the bonus 14,144 times.

At 1 minute per activation and lets say 7 minute fights, you need 2020 fight logs to even begin to see the difference.

[balloonknot]

It's been stated a number of times, it hasn't been demonstrated .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutually_exclusive_events

http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table

specifically read the section on "One-roll system"

To claim that the chance of the 4pc bonus causing a dodge is dependant on the other entries on the table is to claim that we're operating on a 2 or more roll system. You have a long climb if you really wish to make that argument in the face of all the work that has been done in that regard.

[Evilution]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutually_exclusive_events

http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table

specifically read the section on "One-roll system"

To claim that the chance of the 4pc bonus causing a dodge is dependant on the other entries on the table is to claim that we're operating on a 2 or more roll system. You have a long climb if you really wish to make that argument in the face of all the work that has been done in that regard.

Noone here is claiming that 12% dodge adds anything more or less than a flat 12% increased chance of avoiding an attack.
The thing we´ve explained several times though is that the value of a flat 12% dodge IS dependant on where your current
avoidance is, the more avoidance you have, the more valueable the 12% extra dodge is.
Current avoidance can NOT be left out of the calculation if you´re trying to find how valuable 12% dodge is for you.

[Anakso]

Been said a million times but hands down pillars of might.
If you want 2 set bonus its head + any other piece, for people who want 4 set, not that anyone would bar for situational use, its everything but legs.

[balloonknot]

Noone here is claiming that 12% dodge adds anything more or less than a flat 12% increased chance of avoiding an attack.

My post was in response to someone claiming exactly that.

[Wannabetank]

12% dodge, assuming 10 incoming attacks in 10 seconds (unrealistic except for 3inhale Festergut) is 1.2 extra attacks dodged per minute. That's a reduction of say 34k damage per minute, which equates to 500 less DPS taken over 1 minute. (very rough napkin math i know that's not the exact number)

It's really not worth the loss of stats.

Also if u use it and dont pull in time u WILL oom, i use divine plea as little as possible so im ready for chain pulling. That being said theres one more legs to consider... icc25 1st boss legs. http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/49964/l...-of-lost-hope/ not sure how to link so i appologise i usually avoid forums but college forces me to out of bordem.

123STR
207STA
92DEF
108Dodge
74HIT

Vs

162STR
207STA
69Dodge
77Parry

both had 3 sockets all same colours and same socket+

+39STR diff
-39dodge
-77Parry
+74Hit
+92DEF

25 defense skill gives:
-1% chance to take a critical hit from melee or ranged (non-spell) attacks.
+1% chance to be missed
+1% chance to dodge, parry, and block (each).
(92/4.92)/25=0.747% dodge parry and block.

The example paladin calculations use the pre-3.2.0 dodge conversion of 39.348, rather than the new 45.25 conversion.
Again following the paladin example, the paladin has a dodge rating of 402. Divided by 39.348 this becomes 10.21% to add to the pool.

39 dodge difference is 0.9912*% dodge

Patch 3.2.0 (2009-08-04): Parry Rating: The amount of parry rating required per percentage of parry has been reduced by 8%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply. Parry still diminishes more quickly than dodge.

See also Ghostcrawler 2009-07-13. Re: Avoidance Change. Retrieved on 2010-04-04.

Cataclysm: In Cataclysm, a successful parry will provide a 50% damage reduction on the strike you parry as well as the next one. It still essentially prevents one attack from hitting you, but ensures you are still hit by a full strike.

» The number one reason is that parry is the weakest of all avoidance stats to gem for. 49.1 parry rating provide 1% parry at level 80.

77/49.1=1.568% parry.

1.568+0.9912=2.5592% avoidance and the 92 def is 1.495% avoidance... adding the adodge difference 0.9912%=2.4682% only stat personally is agility better for tanking as the armour is buffed intalents crit and dodge. agility is 93% as effective as dodge + the other stats.

Hope it helps.

All sources from wowhead & wowwikki.

*edit* forgot to mention the block but u get the picture

[pfunkmort]

well, to be honest, if you want the two piece, the gloves and chest are probably the best bet, especially considering the heroic versions...as they're the only 277 with bonus armor, and the shoulders off gunship are superior to the tier...also, the helm off deathwhisper allows you to deitemize hit from other pieces so as to stack MOAR stam and armor. Quoo from Adept has a pretty solid set - although he tends to log out in random stuff, so IDK.

and as to the person above, who's doing the heavy math, you might also at least want to mention the heavy DR that exists on miss and dodge. It does exist on parry, yes, but usually itemization exists in such a way that you're at pretty equal dr levels on both parry and dodge (unless you're ignoring both stats because they become irrelevant from some mysterious encounter mechanic...hm...- and even then).

http://wowphiles.com/2009/07/patch-32-avoidance-nerf/ (specifically the 1.88 ratio for dodge rating/parry rating is relevant to your discussion)

[Wannabetank]

Edit: I left out DR as both will be effected. Looking for who has more.

[Cardolan]

25 defense skill gives:
-1% chance to take a critical hit from melee or ranged (non-spell) attacks.
+1% chance to be missed
+1% chance to dodge, parry, and block (each).
92/25=3.68% dodge parry and block.

92 Defense rating is 92/4.92 = 18.7 Defense skill, which is worth .76% (assuming you get 19 Defense from it) chance to be missed and chance to dodge, parry or block.

[Wannabetank]

I think i was to focused on the math and missed out on the english. Math has been adjusted Cardolan thanks for pointing it out.

Its really close now but... u wont become close to losing def cap u gain all the hit. Its down to the block personally they are both on par other giving more str tho for SP + AP.

If you we're to ask me... being icc25 1st boss... It can be yours without any expensies.

Both however win over the tier 10.5 legs unless u are going for the TWO set+ as the 4set is a waste. To me 12% dodge proc is situational.

[Emmber]

Having 4 pieces of Lightsworn is worth it. There are a few fights in ICC where the boss does burst dmg on tank, with special abilities, like Festergut. As all tanks know, Festergut is a defensive cd rotation fight for the tank. yes, you use divine plea at start of fight to mana regen, but after 1 min into the fight, it becomes available again as defensive cd. I literally used this once in the fight, and avoided so much dmg. As you know, ICC has 20% dodge reduction ICC buff. Hitting the divine plea with the Lightsworn 4 piece set bonus boosts up the to tank to 25 to 30% for 12 seconds, creating a total pure avoidance sum (of dodge/parry/miss/5%base miss minus blocking) of 65 to 70% instead of 55%. Hitting this divine plea 12% dodge cd at the time Festergut starts his ability , HP hardly goes down as opposed to the crazy panic scenario of being at 10%.

Also, this set bonus is also wonderful for tanking Saurfang in Gunship. As you know, the DMG debuff Saurfang uses, is applied each time he has a successful hit on the tank, so having lots of dodge during that 30s that you must tank him is ideal. Using a max defense set is highly recommended. On top of that, having divine plea 12% dodge cd for 10s is perfect solution for tanking him in that short period. I use 4 piece Lighsworn defense set at 32 % dodge (unbuffed dodge % not in ICC with Libram of Eternal). Right from start of tanking Saurfang on other ship, I hit the divine plea cd, while dps kills the mage. The debuffs count only goes up to 10 stacks for the duration of dpsing one mage, instead of 18. The DMG-in is amazingly LOWER with using divine plea than without it, even in the already high dodge set. With one healer, I was mostly top hp.

Yes, if you don't have a mark of sanctification to get the item level 264 Sanctified Lightsworn Legguards, I could see how one would want item level 264 Pillars of might or even Legguards of Lost Hope, but for fights that involve burst dmg-in, it is worth to have 4 pieces of Lightsworn.
However, on a boss that is constant dmg-in and does not require major threat/dps race, with average but not HUGE hits (where you need more effective health to survive a hit), a max defense/dodge set without the divine plea cd is sufficient and would give higher pure avoidance (dodge/parry/miss only) than with 4 piece Lightsworn. Pillars of might has more defense/dodge/parry than Lightsworn Legguards, so it would be beneficial to have for say tanking Putricide, where tank has large aggro margin due to dps players switching to adds.

You really can have a tank set maximized for each fight - threat set for Deathwhisper, max defense set w/o divine plea for constant dmg-in fights like Putricide, max stam fights for large hitting bosses, defensive set with divine plea cd for burst dmg fights like Festergut and Saurfang in Gunship.

Now, which tank set or pieces to get first is preference and arguable. It depends on your healers and how much you are surviving without the divine plea 12% dodge cd. To be honest, the first wing of ICC is mostly about needing good HP pool and threat, high dodge is not needed. Pillars of might, you can get later, and it's actually not that needed in Putricide, its just nice to have to minimize dmg-in. PP hits not that hard. Get Legguards of Lost Hope and Lighsworn, imo. Then upgrade your Lightsworn to Sanctifiied to have it at 264 level.

[Gerel]

Pillars of Might are BiS avoidance legs for palaidns, don't go for the T10 legs.
I know some tanks that are 12/12 H ICC25 and still use those, you'd be silly not to pick them up.
And don't listen to all these other people on your 4 set, if your into ICC now expand on your 277 non-teir peices, when you can pick up 4 Heroic conq tokens then switch back to your 4 set.
If your TPS is low you might want to keep the 2set for TPS.

[Jaitee]

all you people posting math showing the chance of the 4pc working are looking at it wrong
ok say u pop DP u get a bit more dodge yay u dodge the bosses first attack then get smashed by his next 3 in a row and die bosses in wrath are hitting so hard because of 1 thing healer mana tank damage is based on one thing the fact that our healers cant (or atleast good well geared healers) go oom so bosses have to do massive damage to threaten us sure u might manage to dodge that hit that is coming in just as u get unlucky and your healers are all running out of fire and have just used their instant heal (natures swifness, swiftmend, holy shock etc) but tell me what are the chances that when that happens itll be when u have just used DP
effective health beats avoidance because of one thing its always there to stop u dieing avoidance well its luck and if your doing hard things which is better to rely on a luck based thing or something that is always there
think of it this way the avoidance tank takes 51% of their health in damage from the bosses attack he gets hit twice without a heal hes dead the effective health tank takes 49% of his health in damage it takes 3 hits without a heal for him to die...thats a 50% increase in survivability from 2% more effective health
(im kinda drunkish and i suck at explaining there is probably someone that can explain it better)