Disc priest raid healing

[fabian]

Nice to see you gave up on the incorrect math line and switched to "ad hominem" attacks.

Please, look at the post again. Also, do not try to "argue" about math, if there is something I know more than you do, it is definitely in both math, and priest mechanics. Also, my "horrible rounding" was always in your favor, and haste still was favored...

[harky]

Yeah... haste scales linearly to reduce cast time.

Let's say you heal for 10k and have 328 haste on a 1.5 second cast spell. That means you have a 1.189 second cast, for 8,407 HPS. Let's add another 33 haste. You now have a 1.1786 second cast, for 8,484 HPS... Must be a fluke let's add another 32 haste! You now have a 1.1684 second cast for 8,568 HPS... shit, we gained exactly the same amount. No wai! :-X

Oh and in regard to my last post? Let's look at crit's benefit on Penance. Increase from 0% to 30% crit on Penance = 28.5% increase in healing. To gain 1% more you would need 69.66 rating, each additional 1% would take more crit raiting to gain. So 1 haste = 1.45 crit rating on Penance at 30% crit, we can work with that. That means (drumroll), you only need to modify the Penance figure by 145% to compensate. That means (hold the gasps), still only 9.33% healing from Penance for haste to be better than crit when purely PW:S spamming. :

If you're using PoH at all (which you should) that number gets distorted very quickly.

You do not understand either haste, crit, or the Priest class, DomBomb. Seriously, unless you take everything off your bars except PW:S and PoM... Crit is horrible. Absolutely horrible.

[DomBomb1]

Please, look at the post again. Also, do not try to "argue" about math, if there is something I know more than you do, it is definitely in both math, and priest mechanics.

1. You do not know more about math than me.
2. If the code rounds favorable for the 49% -> 50% mark, then it's going to round UNFAVORABLY for different amounts of haste, so grats on picking the specific examples that "prove your point" and avoiding the numbers where 1% extra haste gives you 0 increase in HPS due to this supposed in-code rounding.

[fabian]

1. You do not know more about math than me.
2. If the code rounds favorable for the 49% -> 50% mark, then it's going to round UNFAVORABLY for different amounts of haste, so grats on picking the specific examples that "prove your point" and avoiding the numbers where 1% extra haste gives you 0 increase in HPS due to this supposed in-code rounding.

1. Obviously I DO know more, or you would have noticed that every time I rounded(not when Blizz rounds), it was in your favor.
2. It is in the code, and yes there are inconsistencies, but on average, it comes to around 1% increase.

[DomBomb1]

Yeah... haste scales linearly to reduce cast time.

Let's say you heal for 10k and have 328 haste on a 1.5 second cast spell. That means you have a 1.189 second cast, for 8,407 HPS. Let's add another 33 haste. You now have a 1.1786 second cast, for 8,484 HPS... Must be a fluke let's add another 32 haste! You now have a 1.1684 second cast for 8,568 HPS... shit, we gained exactly the same amount. No wai! :-X

Again, more fail math. Yes 1% haste increases your HPS by the same AMOUNT, but that isn't the same PERCENTAGE increase because the denominator is getting bigger as you increase. As to you the rest of your post tl;dr stop talking about Penance and PoH, noone cares. Yes haste is better for those spells, but it's not SO MUCH BETTER than crit is "absolutely horrible". And HASTE IS ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE FOR PW:S, POM, FH, BH, which you should be spending at LEAST half your time casting. Ignoring the fast spells completely does not magically make haste better. Oh, and have fun casting that Prayer of Healing while you're running away from blistering cold, maleable goo, and any number of other hazards.

Again you need to stop trying to put words in my mouth and look at what I say: Crit is not terrible. Crit is better for some spells. The spells it is better for are good spells that should be used frequently, but not exclusively.

[DomBomb1]

1. Obviously I DO know more, or you would have noticed that every time I rounded(not when Blizz rounds), it was in your favor.
2. It is in the code, and yes there are inconsistencies, but on average, it comes to around 1% increase.

1. No, your math is horrible and oh so wrong. If you verified my math at all you would see that my numbers are the AVERAGE HPS increase. If all your numbers are showing up as BETTER THAN AVERAGE, that means you utilized rounding errors IN YOUR FAVOR, which pretty much by definition has to be countered at some other point by WORSE THAN AVERAGE numbers.
2. No, on average it comes out to the numbers in my post - gradually decreasing PERCENTAGE HPS increase.

[fabian]

Again, more fail math. Yes 1% haste increases your HPS by the same AMOUNT, but that isn't the same PERCENTAGE increase because the denominator is getting bigger as you increase. As to you the rest of your post tl;dr stop talking about Penance and PoH, noone cares. Yes haste is better for those spells, but it's not SO MUCH BETTER than crit is "absolutely horrible". And HASTE IS ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE FOR PW:S, POM, FH, BH, which you should be spending at LEAST half your time casting. Ignoring the fast spells completely does not magically make haste better. Oh, and have fun casting that Prayer of Healing while you're running away from blistering cold, maleable goo, and any number of other hazards.

Again you need to stop trying to put words in my mouth and look at what I say: Crit is not terrible. Crit is better for some spells. The spells it is better for are good spells that should be used frequently, but not exclusively.

You denominator is increasing ~ the same % as the numerator...

Crit is not terrible, it just suffers horribly after ~30% crit, one that is easy to get, while haste is 1% for every up to 50%, and drops off a bit afterward. If you really can't see that, please, stop posting/trolling.

1. No, your math is horrible and oh so wrong. If you verified my math at all you would see that my numbers are the AVERAGE HPS increase. If all your numbers are showing up as BETTER THAN AVERAGE, that means you utilized rounding errors IN YOUR FAVOR, which pretty much by definition has to be countered at some other point by WORSE THAN AVERAGE numbers.
2. No, on average it comes out to the numbers in my post - gradually decreasing PERCENTAGE HPS increase.

Yea, I'm not going to bother trying to defend my post, when it is getting increasing obvious you're either a clueless idiot, or a troll that does not know when to quit. The math is out there, mine is correct. You can try to deny it, but it has been verified multiple times with other examples too.

[DomBomb1]

You denominator is increasing ~ the same % as the numerator...

no it isn't. Good job again on ignoring the math in my other post which CLEARLY shows the dimishing of the average HPS as haste increase. You want an easy example? 0% -> 1% haste clearing gives you 1% more HPS. How much HPS do you gain when you go from 100% haste to 101% haste? You gain 0.5% HPS. If you cannot see that much, then you need to stop posting about how good you are at math.

Crit is not terrible, it just suffers horribly after ~30% crit, one that is easy to get, while haste is 1% for every up to 50%, and drops off a bit afterward. If you really can't see that, please, stop posting/trolling.
Yea, I'm not going to bother trying to defend my post, when it is getting increasing obvious you're either a clueless idiot, or a troll that qdoes not know when to quit. The math is out there, mine is correct. You can try to deny it, but it has been verified multiple times with other examples too.

Crit does NOT suddenly get magically worse at some arbitrary % such as 30%. It dimishes at the same rate as haste, and if you try to say otherwise, you are ignoring the facts.

Sorry, you don't get to cite arbitrary "math" that is "out there" consider 1. I can't verify this mystical invisible math, and 2. That math could be just as bad as yours.

[harky]

Wow... you're bad. The only spell that benefits more from Crit than Haste, even as a relation of percentages rather than ratings, is PW:S. The difference between the two stats is not noticeable in any way. If you look at a raid buffed Disc Priest hanging out at around 40% crit the gain from 1% crit is an average gain of 4 healing. You would need 1,246 crit rating at this point to get a 1% gain on PW:S.

You're talking about numbers which will never, ever make any difference in any fight. If you cast PW:S 300 times in a fight you'd get 1,200 more healing from 1% more crit. Now, that's at least a 5 minute fight, so let's say you also cast Penance 10 times. Seriously PW:S spam here, completely useless Priest. But wait! You cast a spell >1.5 seconds 20 times, hmm. So let's say you have 500 haste. That's a 1.211 second cast. Adding 45.91 haste rating, the same amount of rating needed to get 1% crit. You're not at a 1.196 second cast. That means you saved .15 seconds. So how much would .15 PW:S casts be worth? Even without the crit included: 1,530.

You... freaking... fail. You're trying to pretend that any advantage on PW:S makes crit superior to haste. Fact is... no, crit is horrible even for PW:S spam. You can try to dance around all you want but you don't have a leg to stand on. And that's for PW:S spam and only casting Penance twice a minute. Now compare to actually using Penance frequently, which is much more likely.. Now you're going to be getting an entire extra PW:S cast... you know, instead of less than an eighth of a single cast. :

By the way, the 30% is not 'math', it's a rule of thumb. The 30% people talk about? That's before raid buffs and talents. That means you're actually up well over 40% as Disc. Brilliant on completely misunderstanding what people are saying about haste though, kudos.

[Deleted]

Oh sweet another wall of text I can beat with logic. That "tiny amount" is STILL > the zero you gain from haste on PW:S spam. As for the rest of that bullshit, you don't get to compare haste rating gain on PoH with crit rating gain on PW:S spam - that's just retarded. GG

Last I heard, haste reduces the GCD, which lets you hit more shields.
GG

[Azyoulike]

Wow... you're bad. The only spell that benefits more from Crit than Haste, even as a relation of percentages rather than ratings, is PW:S.

Nah - PoM tbh, assuming you always cast it with BT up. Anyway this discussion is getting horribly twisted by people mixing up linear and exponential scaling.

Crit and haste both scale linearly, which is to say that going from 0%->1% provides the same absolute benefit as going from 1%-2%. Neither scale exponentially which is what would be required for 0%->1% to provide the same relative benefit as 1%-2%. This is something so simple and yet so widely confused that it drives me to distraction.

Crit starts out inferior for throughput given the lower coefficient, albeit only slightly lower for disc thanks to DA, and the higher rating required for 1% crit versus 1% haste.

In principle at high enough haste you will get a larger relative HPS increase by increasing crit, but in practice that's not achievable - something like 43% haste at 30% crit would be the break even point.

That however is for spamming a single non haste capped spell, the analysis is complicated by the CDs on PoM and Penance and the assumed haste capping of PoM due to BT. So increasing haste will result in a larger proportion of 'filler' casts, which are lower throughput and so that somewhat reduces the scaling, however it's hard to precisely model this and arguably not beneficial to even try since healing is too reactive to really benefit from a 'rawr' style approach and anyway rawr's disc priest module was shockingly bad last time I checked it.

TL/DR - Crit isn't as bad as some people make out, but it's still worse than haste - on most every encounter. The only encounter where crit might possibly come close would be aura fights where PoM is reliably jumping, and then you'd have been better as holy anyway and using haste to fire more renews.

Last I heard, haste reduces the GCD, which lets you hit more shields.
GG

Last I heard the haste cap for shield spamming was so low you could hit it in blue gear.

Edit: I should note that one other key difference between crit and haste is that haste buffs & talents don't scale the same way as crit buffs and talents. Crit buffs scale additively with gear, and thus push down crits relative scaling. Haste buffs scale multiplicatively and thus do not push down hastes relative scaling. This just serves to bring the balance even more decisively in favour of haste.

[DomBomb1]

Wow... you're bad. The only spell that benefits more from Crit than Haste, even as a relation of percentages rather than ratings, is PW:S. The difference between the two stats is not noticeable in any way. If you look at a raid buffed Disc Priest hanging out at around 40% crit the gain from 1% crit is an average gain of 4 healing. You would need 1,246 crit rating at this point to get a 1% gain on PW:S.

You're talking about numbers which will never, ever make any difference in any fight. If you cast PW:S 300 times in a fight you'd get 1,200 more healing from 1% more crit. Now, that's at least a 5 minute fight, so let's say you also cast Penance 10 times. Seriously PW:S spam here, completely useless Priest. But wait! You cast a spell >1.5 seconds 20 times, hmm. So let's say you have 500 haste. That's a 1.211 second cast. Adding 45.91 haste rating, the same amount of rating needed to get 1% crit. You're not at a 1.196 second cast. That means you saved .15 seconds. So how much would .15 PW:S casts be worth? Even without the crit included: 1,530.

You... freaking... fail. You're trying to pretend that any advantage on PW:S makes crit superior to haste. Fact is... no, crit is horrible even for PW:S spam. You can try to dance around all you want but you don't have a leg to stand on. And that's for PW:S spam and only casting Penance twice a minute. Now compare to actually using Penance frequently, which is much more likely.. Now you're going to be getting an entire extra PW:S cast... you know, instead of less than an eighth of a single cast. :

By the way, the 30% is not 'math', it's a rule of thumb. The 30% people talk about? That's before raid buffs and talents. That means you're actually up well over 40% as Disc. Brilliant on completely misunderstanding what people are saying about haste though, kudos.

Wait, so I'm fail because you are hung up on PW:S spam, which is words you put into my mouth in the first place? GG on spending 3 paragraphs proving absolutely nothing. Brilliant on completely misunderstand what people are saying about crit though, kudos.

Crit is better for more than just PW:S... it's better for PoM after PW:S; it's better for flash heal after PW:S; it's better for binding heal after PW:S; it's better for flash heal after PoM after PW:S; it's better for binding heal after PoM after PW:S. For all of those combinations and more, ADDITIONAL HASTE RATING DOES NOTHING. If you completely ignore all those key spells, then yeah haste is clearly better. If you instead play your class right, haste and crit are both extremely valuable.

[DomBomb1]

Nah - PoM tbh, assuming you always cast it with BT up. Anyway this discussion is getting horribly twisted by people mixing up linear and exponential scaling.

Crit and haste both scale linearly, which is to say that going from 0%->1% provides the same absolute benefit as going from 1%-2%. Neither scale exponentially which is what would be required for 0%->1% to provide the same relative benefit as 1%-2%. This is something so simple and yet so widely confused that it drives me to distraction.

Crit starts out inferior for throughput given the lower coefficient, albeit only slightly lower for disc thanks to DA, and the higher rating required for 1% crit versus 1% haste.

In principle at high enough haste you will get a larger relative HPS increase by increasing crit, but in practice that's not achievable - something like 43% haste at 30% crit would be the break even point.

That however is for spamming a single non haste capped spell, the analysis is complicated by the CDs on PoM and Penance and the assumed haste capping of PoM due to BT. So increasing haste will result in a larger proportion of 'filler' casts, which are lower throughput and so that somewhat reduces the scaling, however it's hard to precisely model this and arguably not beneficial to even try since healing is too reactive to really benefit from a 'rawr' style approach and anyway rawr's disc priest module was shockingly bad last time I checked it.

TL/DR - Crit isn't as bad as some people make out, but it's still worse than haste - on most every encounter. The only encounter where crit might possibly come close would be aura fights where PoM is reliably jumping, and then you'd have been better as holy anyway and using haste to fire more renews.

Last I heard the haste cap for shield spamming was so low you could hit it in blue gear.

Finally a sane person comes in and sums it all up. Can we all stop arguing now?

[harky]

The problem is still this:

spirit and mp5 are horrible unless you suck at mana management or your raid comp is terrible. However, haste is not "by far" better than crit. When spamming shields haste does nothing while crit increases the crit chance on your glyph heals (granted this is a pretty small effect). When not spamming shields, you should still be putting a shield out every few GCDs so you should generally assume that you have BT up for some significant fraction of your casting. You CANNOT do this type of analysis and say "oh well, we'll just ignore BT completely, therefore haste is better" which is pretty much what you're saying. The other part that you seem to ignore is that Mitigation (Divine Aegis) is better than healing (faster PoH/Penance). This increases the value of crit relative to haste, though exactly how much is not clear. So don't go saying "LOLOL HASTE IS WAY BETTER U NUBS" when you can't even back it up.

You're still completely ignoring that haste > crit has been backed up definitively, even completely ignoring implications based on faulty wording. Look at the math involved, not words like 'linear'. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Hell, the post you just agreed with? Did you read the conclusion?

"Crit isn't as bad as some people make out, but it's still worse than haste - on most every encounter."

Crit is worse than haste. It has always been worse than haste. You're arguing a pro-crit argument based on PW:S spam and have been for the entire thread. You may have a decent understanding of core math, but you can't grasp either the implications on healing itself, or even accept the actual end result of the formulas involved. You only want to nitpick semantics. You're a troll. You're still bad. Haste is still much, much better than Crit as Discipline.

[DomBomb1]

The problem is still this:

You're still completely ignoring that haste > crit has been backed up definitively, even completely ignoring implications based on faulty wording. Look at the math involved, not words like 'linear'. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Hell, the post you just agreed with? Did you read the conclusion?

"Crit isn't as bad as some people make out, but it's still worse than haste - on most every encounter."

Quoting myself here since you seem to not even read what you quote me as saying:

However, haste is not "by far" better than crit.
So don't go saying "LOLOL HASTE IS WAY BETTER U NUBS" when you can't even back it up.

Look at the post you just quoted from me. Then look at the post I agreed with... hey look they say the same thing. Notice that is says "by far" and "WAY BETTER"?

Crit is worse than haste. It has always been worse than haste. You're arguing a pro-crit argument based on PW:S spam and have been for the entire thread. You may have a decent understanding of core math, but you can't grasp either the implications on healing itself, or even accept the actual end result of the formulas involved. You only want to nitpick semantics. You're a troll. You're still bad. Haste is still much, much better than Crit as Discipline.

No sir, you are a troll. You are the one that keeps saying that I'm arguing for PW:S spam, when in fact I have clearly stated several times that that is not the case. The end result of all these formulas you like to make up in your head without citing is that haste gives you ZERO benefit on any instant cast or 1.5s base cast time spell when you have the borrowed time buff. But go on, continue completely ignoring this simple fact.

[harky]

If you're not arguing for pure PW:S spam, then you're just a troll, that's the point here. The only time the haste 'cap' is low is when PW:S spamming. As soon as you stop haste suddenly jumps to being your top HPS stat. Even better than Spellpower point for point. You keep talking about putting words in peoples mouths, but here's the reality: People are talking about 30%+ crit. If we thought crit was useless, we wouldn't be talking about 30%+ crit, we'd be talking about 20% raid buffed, which is the minimum you can get. We're talking about having 400+ crit rating.

Fact is Crit is bad. Is it useless? No, but it's bad. The only stats that are inferior to crit are MP5 and Spirit. That's it. You talk about how hastes relative value works? Come on. Haste's value starts out being less than half of Crit's and crit diminishes nearly twice as fast. The cold, bitter fact is that you need to be sitting at 0% crit and 100% haste for the two to even be 'on par' for any spell that haste is still working on. If you can't handle that, there's not much anyone can do for you.

[Kelesti]

I'm sorry. The points were made, both sides have had it, and no one's budging. Just to put an end to this, my Fire Extinguisher's coming on this thread and snuffing it out, and that's all that's going to be said here.