Cataclysm - Rated Battlegrounds

[Frygar]

You mean it will be easier to give gear to people who dont deserve it?

No...he was remarking on the issue of balance, not the issue of gear availability. Better balance does not necessarily make gear easier to obtain.

[Cjeska]

You mean it will be easier to give gear to people who dont deserve it?

He was talking about balancing and you start a rant over "welfare-epics"? Are you afraid that the bads will actually have a chance when you don't outgear them?
Not that bad players would get very far in rated bg's, but if you'r really so pro like you think you are it wouldn't be a problem at all.

[darah117]

You mean it will be easier to give gear to people who dont deserve it?

they can attract and please a larger percent of the player base who pays the same amount of money as everyone else =) mooore $$$ for them duh! they did the same thing in pve when wotlk came out and now its time to fully do it as well in pvp

[goetz401]

I think ppl who dont do arena fail to see how much better at pvp arena players actually are =P
Every1 can cap a base or a tower but it takes a bit more to defend it vs. an entire team of your avarage BG baddies.

good pvpers do often gravitate towards arena. don't get confused though and say that doing well in arena has made them good pvpers, or that you can't be a good pvper unless you've done well in arena. you don't need to be 2200 rated to do well in pvp outside of arena. being good at pvp really just requires good game mechanic knowledge, good class knowledge (either from playing other classes to moderate-high levels in pvp, or just extra experience playing against them), pvp experience (doesn't even matter what class its on or if you switch classes), a good pvp-centric ui with all useful abilities keybound in some fashion. one can do all of the above without entering a single arena match and they will perform just as well in your scenario as someone who has played arena extensively.

your example was just bad.

[Deleted]

Vanilla pvp titles are back again...

So having them now is special atleast....

[Bobzor]

good pvpers do often gravitate towards arena. don't get confused though and say that doing well in arena has made them good pvpers, or that you can't be a good pvper unless you've done well in arena. you don't need to be 2200 rated to do well in pvp outside of arena. being good at pvp really just requires good game mechanic knowledge, good class knowledge (either from playing other classes to moderate-high levels in pvp, or just extra experience playing against them), pvp experience (doesn't even matter what class its on or if you switch classes), a good pvp-centric ui with all useful abilities keybound in some fashion. one can do all of the above without entering a single arena match and they will perform just as well in your scenario as someone who has played arena extensively.

your example was just bad.

Actually it is arena that makes you good. since i started playing arena i've improved faaaar beyond i ever thought was possible =P Arena is a great way to improve game mechanics knowledge but an even greater way to improve individual skill.

[Feel The Power]

You mean it will be easier to give gear to people who dont deserve it?

You know, I don't think the "elitist" players think much before they speak. They will all say how easy it is to get to an "ok" rating like 2200, or how easy it is to do whatever high tier dungeon is out at the time, or how easy it is to get the best gear in the game. What they are basically saying is they themselves have no skill, because the game takes no skill. Yet in the same breathe they will complain about people who have gear handed to them. Tell me, if everything in this game is soooo easy to get, how can the elitist type people complain at all about people "being handed gear" when they make it seem like everything was handed to them?

[goetz401]

Actually it is arena that makes you good. since i started playing arena i've improved faaaar beyond i ever thought was possible =P Arena is a great way to improve game mechanics knowledge but an even greater way to improve individual skill.

no. im sure you really think this, but everything you can learn through arena (and everything that comes with it) can be done minus the arena part. you were just clueless before you did arena.

edit- the only special thing you may pick up from arena and no where else is good communication skills which are not often excercised in bgs or duels. everything else though including learning game mechanics and developing "skill" can come from duels, bgs and world encounters.

[Exeeter]

He didn't say ALL players that favor BGs over arena are bad as an absolute. He said that HE THOUGHT (in other words, in his opinion...not "absolute") people that preferred BGs over arenas were more often swayed by a lack of pvp skill than by differing styles of play.

Performing well in arenas requires a deep knowledge of your class and how it corresponds to other classes and their mechanics. This level of knowledge is not necessary to perform well in BGs because of the larger, less personal scale. You are correct, its not bad to be "bad" at arenas, however, it does put more emphasis on personal responsibility and knowledge of mechanics IN GENERAL.

Of course, this is your opinion. Many would say that, due to the knowledge and personal responsibility in Arenas (again, in general compared to BGs) it is, in fact, a good demonstration of pvp skill, and not a joke.

Of course not! That's a ridiculous analogy. Is professional skateboarding more prestigious than 40 people casually hanging out at a skate park? Yes.

A text book response that i was expecting.. and i meant to say most players, as he worded it are bad at arena that favor bgs.

To say that arena teaches you control and knowledge of your class in a way that BGs dont is completely false in every way.... again its hard to explain this point when most individuals do not think outside the box. listen

BGs have never offered the best end game pvp rewrads via honor for the exception of pre BC. Because of this any player that desired end game gear for pvp was directed to arena play..and its created a sort of mentality that people cant grasp the fact that there are players who involve themselfs in large scale pvp passionately, and as a result learn the ins and outs of there class.. i would even go as far as saying that it improves your skill kin the game more so then arena..

Arena shoe horns players to work with very specific class comps, in bgs u encounter all the classes in the game often... its just a completely different approach. Now its easy for some elitist to sit here and say "well... your just fighting a zergfest with a bunch of baddies" or some shit....

Do you see the point? its almost imposible to distinguish the players that really enjoy that playstyle simply because it also attracts casual players that may not be that good at the game.... and there is an extremely large grey area with no way to gauge prowess..

" you suck, and bgs suck, because it only houses bad players that what welfare epics! and those are the only players your playing against"

I dont know how many times ive hear that on forums..

Not to burst anyones bubble, but the learning curve of this game is not that steep, and arena is not the only avenue to fine tuning your performance.

i could easily say that its just as much of a demonstration of skill being able to observe your suroundings, is this a fight i should pick or should i back off and wait for some more players... class x is with me... but they have 2 class Ys and one class Z... what are my chances.. unless you have a pocket healer or are a damage healer hybrid class, one thing you learn most of all is surviving with your own merits witch in the long run makes you a better player as well..... its not about topping damage charts

These aspects are impossible to gauge, and what most people are essentially saying is...
"Player B is better at controlling his character and knows more about the other classes then Player A due to a rating number in his character sheet" witch is absolutely absurd.

[Eeyno]

There still is a difference between Arena's and BG's. Arenas is really about destroying the enemy or outlasting them and that's pretty much it. Most of the battlegrounds actually have a strategy and objectives behind them in order to accomplish the win. Yes you are killing the other guy but it's not as important as capturing points, turning in flags, etc.

I enjoy battlegrounds such as Arathi basin because I can play a class to guard a point instead of having to just be a DPS class. To me the only old Welfare epic battleground was Alterac valley where you really carried a lot of the group.

WSG, AB, EoTS and the new ones have actually objectives to carry out a quick victory which makes the battlegrounds enjoyable. If BG's were so easy why would of Twinking level 19 WSG's become so popular?

I know many folks that enjoy the strategy of the BG's and dislike the FoTM arena groups where it's more about which button to mash based upon what your opponant did. To me Arena's are more about dueling which really isn't fun PvP to me.

[wowsucks]

Arena = brutal pvp
BG = smart pvp, hence much more enjoyable for certain type of people

[Wolly]

I think the arena only players are scared that bg players that don't arena will actually have the ability to, you know, defend themselves when the bored arena player comes facerolling through the bg with far better gear.

[Frygar]

Look, the average Arena player will beat the average BG player in equal gear because of his more intimate knowledge of PvP. Two average 5v5 arena teams will beat one average 10 player BG-only team in equal gear because of their more intimate knowledge of PvP.

Arenas and BGs have the following required components to perform well:
Arenas

• Knowledge of your class
• Knowledge of how to play against other classes
• Timing and coordination practice

Battlegrounds

• EVERYTHING FROM ARENAS, plus...
• Knowledge of how the BGs work

The knowledge required to perform well in either venue is not that different, except for learning how the BGs work which is extremely easy. The point is that Arenas, because of their more personal nature and higher individual responsibility, produce IN GENERAL better players. Obviously there will be exceptions to this rule which is why I said "in general".

If better rewards were offered in BGs, then you would see an increase in the level of gear, not the level of skill.

I see this as a way for Blizzard to stop focusing on balancing arenas, which is almost impossible to do, and start focusing on balancing large group PvP, which is a little easier. And I have no problem with that. My issue is with people trying to argue that it takes as much skill to do well in BGs as it does in Arenas when it simply doesn't. It doesn't hurt to have that extra skill in BGs, but its not REQUIRED to do well, and thus it doesn't cultivate great players like Arena does.

[Fogsworth]

I prefer BGs, & on my warrior I got to 1600 while still in questing blues / early epics
So was my partner =P (buddy...OP druid i know...but still)
I wouldnt consider myself bad at arena, but I realy prefer BGs...dispite how bad my team is (dont you love the alliance? :)

BGs = like a miniature war
Arena = Like a cagefight

[Deviante]

Judging by the class previews a lot of the blizzard design effort seems to be toward rated battlegrounds in cataclysm. This is not necessarily a bad thing although I am slightly confused as to the reason why. The impression I have garnered from blue posts is that rated battlegrounds are there to offer players who enjoy pvp but dislike arenas a chance to obtain the same gear as their arena-favouring counterparts.

It simply seems to me that if this is the reason for the shift to Rated BG's then Blizzard have not thought this through. Battlegrounds as they stand currently are very different to arenas. They are generally a solo, duo or perhaps trio affair generally against varying opponents in skill, gear and number. Battlegrounds were and are an attempt to try and 'capture' the ever changing nature of world pvp in a more balanced and consensual enviroment. I think they are succusful in this endeavour.

There are two kinds of people who fall into Blizzard's category of liking pvp and disliking arenas. Those who prefer battlegrounds playstyle because of its differing style and those who prefer battlegrounds because they are unsuccessful in arenas. I expect most non-arena faring folks would want to count themselves in the first partition but I expect in reality most fall into the second. Regardless I do not see how either group of players is going to be satisifed by rated battlegrounds.

Those players who dislike the style of arenas are I expect going to be disappointed as rated battlegrounds will simply be a series of arena battles taking place across a map. Those who were unsuccessful in arena will be unsuccesful in rated battlegrounds.

I would love to see some more interesting/different arena style competetive play in the expansion and besides the more difficult logistics really look forward to rated BGs but I can't help but feel that rated battlegrounds will fail to please those at whom they are aimed and will only outdo arenas for the arena players if they offer stronger rewards.

Have you ever played against equally good premade on a BG? Because those were some of the best moments I've had in WoW (sadly this was during vanilla and both expansions have just made the game worse in almost every aspect imho).

[Ormula]

Have you ever played against equally good premade on a BG? Because those were some of the best moments I've had in WoW (sadly this was during vanilla and both expansions have just made the game worse in almost every aspect imho).

This actually is true. I've had one or two experiences of 40man premade versus 40man premade on AV. That was an intense battle, right down to the wire. Saving TP with 10 seconds left because of good CC and thundershocks, things like that.

Unfortunately, that really isn't the norm.

[Bobzor]

no. im sure you really think this, but everything you can learn through arena (and everything that comes with it) can be done minus the arena part. you were just clueless before you did arena.

edit- the only special thing you may pick up from arena and no where else is good communication skills which are not often excercised in bgs or duels. everything else though including learning game mechanics and developing "skill" can come from duels, bgs and world encounters.

Those things doesnt push you as hard as arena does. when you're doing arena you always know that you can get better and will try to do so at any cost. im not talking about communication or even game mechanics im talking about pushing yourself to the limit when it comes to reacting, thinking and performing. nothing beats arenas in that aspect and nothing ever will.

[Bobzor]

There still is a difference between Arena's and BG's. Arenas is really about destroying the enemy or outlasting them and that's pretty much it.

Clearly you've never set your foot in an arena and havent got a clue whatsoever what its about. just sit down and be quiet.

If BG's were so easy why would of Twinking level 19 WSG's become so popular?

Oh god... Let me put it like this. ZERGING THE FK OUT OF BAD PPL WILL ALWAYS BE FUN TO SOME PPL, KAY?

[Herecius]

Ever played in a premade and ended up unexpectedly going up against another premade when you queued? It generally results in some of the most insane battles possible in a BG. This is what I'm hoping that rated BGs will be like.

[PinkSpider]

If rated bg's aren't going to be "premade only" then pugs will get stomped by premades. it has happened before.