Sub PvP tips and tricks

[Thesphinx]

Note, all of this is my opinion. In no way am I forcing anyone to believe my advice, though of course I am open for discussion.

Playing a Sub rogue in PVP a lot I find that many rogues I come across make common sub "mistakes," using the wrong abilities during battle, using useless attacks during fights, and of course just speccing in inefficient ways. This is my mini-guide to help those who may fall under this category.

1. Speccing into Master of Subtlety: Master of Subtlety increases your damage by 10% for the 6 seconds which you come out of stealth. This is a leftover talent option from back before Resilience reduced damage by 20%, and was meant to give Subs some burst from stealth. At this point in WoW, it doesn't provide any real source of damage. The average Arena fight lasts about 1-2 minutes, with 2 Vanishes(one from Prep) and the initial opener. In short, this provides about 18 seconds of benefit. It's unfortunately not too useful.

2. Glyphing Tricks of the Trade: This isn't THAT BAD of an option, especially since tricks is up so much for a Sub Rogue. However, with the way healers work, increasing sustained damage won't help too much overall. Tricks is oftentimes more useful as a burst option rather than a sustained damage option. 10 seconds is too much time for burst: 6 seconds is about right(that's probably how long you get the healer stunned for with KS). Therefore, more often than not this glyph won't be helpful.

3. Speccing 5/5 Malice: Once again, this isn't a BAD option, just not an efficient one. Lethality is important for many rogues because it allows them to put points into Lethality, which is a ridiculously powerful talent. However, a sub rogue can't get Lethality anyways; why then do they put points into Malice? 1% crit chance is about .8% increased damage overall, fighting someone with 1k resilience. It's better to just put 2 points in so that you can get Improved Backstab and then go back down.

4. Blood Splatter/using Rupture: Rupture is a good ability for sub rogues. However, the overall damage is based around having a druid or a warrior apply the 30% increased bleed effect. It does deal a great load of damage and go through plate, but fails to finish the job when a healer is involved and CC is more important. If you 2v2/3v3/5v5 with someone who has a bleed debuff, or need to apply DoTs for whatever reason(*cough*Rogues), it is useful. Otherwise, it can cause some problems breaking CC.

5. Opening with Ambush: Ambush is a good ability, but Cheap Shot is significantly better in terms of utility. If the target is already stunned or DR is involved, open with an Ambush. Otherwise, Cheap Shot or Garrote.

6. Premeditation: Premeditation is a great ability, but comes up somewhat useless when used in conjunction with Cheap shot or Ambush. In both cases, the 5 combo points are preserved for the KS, and by then you are back to full on your energy and have lost valuable resources in not using your offensive strikes. Rather, the better use of Premeditation is to amp up Slice and Dice before a fight. Slice and Dice does not break stealth. Therefore, it is very useful to use right before opening.

7. Improved Gouge/Glyph of Gouge: Gouge is a sub rogue's most powerful weapon, and it's a shame no rogues use it. It deals 1500 damage, costs 30 energy glyphed, and incapacitates for 6 seconds every 10 seconds. It's the perfect amount of time to exit combat and restealth in a 1v1 scenario, and offers plenty of control in a 2v2 scenario. The only problem is that it gets broken easily by Rupture, which is another reason why Rupture should not be used for maximizing damage.

8. DW Specialization: Sub rogues have some of the most potent autoattack damage in the game, due to their Slice N Dice constantly being up during combat(on a side note, getting Improved Slice N Dice in any shape or form is generally a good move too). Therefore, DW Specialization is a good place to put points in for extra damage.

Hope this helped some people.

[Divinator]

1. To an extent, i am glad that you summed this up by logic reason. I will not argue with you that for the overall benefit, you are correct in this aspect. While most sub rogues just love to have the more and more damage when they can, the usefulness of this talent in an overall perspective is not a great one.

2. I dont glyph ToTT so it seems like were on an ever par with this option. Of course, like yours, its IMO.

3. Malice is an alright talent, but w/o a doubt, Lethality is your core talent in sub. Improved Backstab is also a must.

4. Agreed with the stacking debuff from warriors and druid. Most rogues use it on other rogues to keep from vanishing but overall, the dps isn't too great to keep up (even though it can crit).

5. Depends on who your fighting. If there badly geared, ambush is great. If not, then it MIGHT be wiser to use cheap shot. There are many variations, and everyone will have their opinion on it.

6. Again, there are many variations with this.

7. 110% agree with this.

8. IMO i do not approve of this, since it is ONLY for auto attack (best stacked with Dual instant) if your putting more points into DW Spec.

Sub rogues are ALL about timing their moves, and unleashing finishing moves to keep up their energy. It is not about spamming hemo or sininster, but taking your time to unleash your abilities to get the most benefit out of them.

[Thesphinx]

1. To an extent, i am glad that you summed this up by logic reason. I will not argue with you that for the overall benefit, you are correct in this aspect. While most sub rogues just love to have the more and more damage when they can, the usefulness of this talent in an overall perspective is not a great one.

2. I dont glyph ToTT so it seems like were on an ever par with this option. Of course, like yours, its IMO.

3. Malice is an alright talent, but w/o a doubt, Lethality is your core talent in sub. Improved Backstab is also a must.

4. Agreed with the stacking debuff from warriors and druid. Most rogues use it on other rogues to keep from vanishing but overall, the dps isn't too great to keep up (even though it can crit).

5. Depends on who your fighting. If there badly geared, ambush is great. If not, then it MIGHT be wiser to use cheap shot. There are many variations, and everyone will have their opinion on it.

6. Again, there are many variations with this.

7. 110% agree with this.

8. IMO i do not approve of this, since it is ONLY for auto attack (best stacked with Dual instant) if your putting more points into DW Spec.

Sub rogues are ALL about timing their moves, and unleashing finishing moves to keep up their energy. It is not about spamming hemo or sininster, but taking your time to unleash your abilities to get the most benefit out of them.

I'm glad you replied so in-depth. It's very helpful to discuss these sort of things with another person.

3. I honestly question the usefulness of Lethality. Assuming you crit 50% of the time with Improved Backstab, plus the crit damage mitigation from resilience (20%), each point of Lethality only increases total DPS by 2.2%. And that's only on your Backstabs, so by itself it only really increases damage by 1.1% total.

5. Even if you're fighting someone with low armor or health, Cheap Shot, when the target isn't already stunned or on DR, is usually the best way to go. You can always Backstab out of a Cheapshot, to damage a clothy, but Ambushing them will give them ample time to escape.

6. In some cases I like to Premed -> Cheapshot -> Rupture -> Run away like a little girl in battlegrounds, just to be annoying. If you're not planning on using the 5 combo points for a Kidney Shot, then using it on Cheap Shot is fine. Using it on Garrote is always fine (it won't affect your opener in any way.) Using it on Ambush should never happen, due to the fact that a single ambush generates 4 combo points already.

8. A lot of people tend to underestimate a Sub Rogue's autoattack damage, but in actuality, it's enormous. Firstly, they have their advantage with Slice N Dice being up almost 100% of the time. Secondly, their attack power and agility are stacked up ridiculously high due to those two specific talents. And of course, Serrated Blades gives that 9% resistance to armor, which is something neither Combat nor Assass have. The only real disadvantage Sub rogues have with their autoattacking is that their poisons don't help much (Wounding does its little bit of damage, Deadly should never be used as it breaks Gouges). Nevertheless, it's still a big source of damage.

[Mars_Trueskills]

Hey guys, could you guys maybe create a talent preview for this spec, I play sub rogue- arcane mage on 2150 rating and it works great.. the only problem is that when my mage is pinned down my dmg is not high enough to finish off their healer etc. And I think it might be my spec since its full of master of sublety and malice talents! anyways, if you guys could make a preview for me I'd appreciate it!
Btw nice in depth guide from you, good job!

[Divinator]

I'm glad you replied so in-depth. It's very helpful to discuss these sort of things with another person.

3. I honestly question the usefulness of Lethality. Assuming you crit 50% of the time with Improved Backstab, plus the crit damage mitigation from resilience (20%), each point of Lethality only increases total DPS by 2.2%. And that's only on your Backstabs, so by itself it only really increases damage by 1.1% total.

5. Even if you're fighting someone with low armor or health, Cheap Shot, when the target isn't already stunned or on DR, is usually the best way to go. You can always Backstab out of a Cheapshot, to damage a clothy, but Ambushing them will give them ample time to escape.

6. In some cases I like to Premed -> Cheapshot -> Rupture -> Run away like a little girl in battlegrounds, just to be annoying. If you're not planning on using the 5 combo points for a Kidney Shot, then using it on Cheap Shot is fine. Using it on Garrote is always fine (it won't affect your opener in any way.) Using it on Ambush should never happen, due to the fact that a single ambush generates 4 combo points already.

8. A lot of people tend to underestimate a Sub Rogue's autoattack damage, but in actuality, it's enormous. Firstly, they have their advantage with Slice N Dice being up almost 100% of the time. Secondly, their attack power and agility are stacked up ridiculously high due to those two specific talents. And of course, Serrated Blades gives that 9% resistance to armor, which is something neither Combat nor Assass have. The only real disadvantage Sub rogues have with their autoattacking is that their poisons don't help much (Wounding does its little bit of damage, Deadly should never be used as it breaks Gouges). Nevertheless, it's still a big source of damage.

i use leth for my backstabs which crit around 6-8k on cloth wearers while plate its around 3k. Combined with the hemo buff it helps with damaging. I NEVER forget to keep expose armor up also on plate wearers so i can dish out the most damage. Like i said, it isn't about spamming moves, but rather timing your abilities so you dont waste anything. And in sub, wasting = death for you. I use rupture for fun cause i like seeing 1k ticks on people and such. For sub, i usually roll w/ 2 instant poisons.

[Siri]

7. Improved Gouge/Glyph of Gouge: Gouge is a sub rogue's most powerful weapon, and it's a shame no rogues use it. It deals 1500 damage, costs 30 energy glyphed, and incapacitates for 6 seconds every 10 seconds. It's the perfect amount of time to exit combat and restealth in a 1v1 scenario, and offers plenty of control in a 2v2 scenario. The only problem is that it gets broken easily by Rupture, which is another reason why Rupture should not be used for maximizing damage.

Improved gouge is 5.5 seconds, it takes 6 seconds to drop combat. You won't get a restealth in someone's face with it unless they're dead IRL or lagging badly.
Gouge is still awesome, it just doesn't provide the "perfect amount of time".

[Lemons]

Pretty good guide...but something tells me you just took a look at Reckful's current spec and worked backwards. There is literally no suggestion you gave that deviates in any way from his spec/glyphs, and maybe you even watched a few of his vids.

In any case it is nice to see the reasoning behind the speccing decisions. I think why Reckful uses improved gouge in arenas is probably more just to CC opponents rather than to Gouge > Stealth. It's pretty much impossible to go ooc stealth against another arena team who are smart enough to recognize what you're trying to do.

BTW I'm totally speccing sub as soon as I can and trying out reckful's build...it looks very interesting.

[Thesphinx]

Pretty good guide...but something tells me you just took a look at Reckful's current spec and worked backwards. There is literally no suggestion you gave that deviates in any way from his spec/glyphs, and maybe you even watched a few of his vids.

In any case it is nice to see the reasoning behind the speccing decisions. I think why Reckful uses improved gouge in arenas is probably more just to CC opponents rather than to Gouge > Stealth. It's pretty much impossible to go ooc stealth against another arena team who are smart enough to recognize what you're trying to do.

BTW I'm totally speccing sub as soon as I can and trying out reckful's build...it looks very interesting.

You pretty much summed it up here. I was messing around with my own Sub spec and I ended up using Reckful's spec almost precisely (I don't use Cheat Death because I 2v2 with a warlock, besides that it's pretty much identical), so I managed to work out how everything was supposed to be used. IMO it's really optimal.

Mars_Trueskills, I have huge problems with the same thing right now with my warlock buddy. The secret, I believe, is CC. You both should be focusing on the same character to kill because once one character is dead, that's all it takes to win a game. The other character could either be allowed to run free, or he could be controlled as much as possible. If you can kill one of your opponents without the other one being able to kill you faster, then that's fine too. But if you're at a disadvantage with the matchup, being able to effectively control the second player for long enough will be game-changing. A good method is to do CS -> KS and hope they make the mistake of Trinketing it, then just Blind -> Sap -> Poly -> Gouge your way to victory. Works for healers, works for DPS. Armory Reckful(BE Rogue) if you want to see an amazing sub spec.

Divinator, Lethality does help for damaging but it's not the most valuable talent for doing so. per point you are only gaining 1.2% total DPS increase. Also, in my opinion, Expose Armor isn't terribly useful if you're using it by yourself. On average it reduces armor by 5% or 6%, which reduces effective health by about 7.5% or 9%. Though that is a pretty nice damage increase, it comes at the extent of an Eviscerate. Also, Slice and Dice increases total damage by far more (around 20%), so Expose Armor should only be used if SND is already up, or if 3 or more melee targets are hitting your opponent.

[Thesphinx]

For sub, i usually roll w/ 2 instant poisons.

This isn't bad per say. I'm guessing you use Wound Poison instead of one of the two instants when fighting healers, but nevertheless, I prefer to run Wound Poison/Crippling Poison. Crippling Poison may seem like a strange choice what with Waylay, but its snare (70%) is significantly more powerful than the 50% snare of Waylay.

But, still spec into Waylay. For one thing, the 20% melee haste debuff kills a lot of melee classes, and the ability to put up a movement speed debuff instantaneously is extremely valuable when trying to keep your opponents from getting away.

By no means though is it necessary. If you are fine with a 50% debuff, then stick with it. If your partner needs the extra snare (Arcane Mage, Warlock, etc), you ought to use it, but otherwise, Instant is a good replacement.

[Surly]

Some good points here. I'd like to mention since it hasn't been brought up but rupture is used for the crits -> extra combo points via HAT. Obviously this is to the detriment of potential CC and should be used wisely, but I thought it was important to note.

[ultimar235]

Whens best time to use Shadow Dance?

And what about usefulness of Setup and Cheat Death maybe even Enveloping shadows for bladestorms?

(i don't know answer, genuinly asking)

[Thesphinx]

Whens best time to use Shadow Dance?

And what about usefulness of Setup and Cheat Death maybe even Enveloping shadows for bladestorms?

(i don't know answer, genuinly asking)

Shadowdance is a great ability, but you should only use it once you are capped on energy. So, just wait 8 or so seconds for your energy to refill, then let it rip.

It's usually best when you need intense burst to take an opponent down. Because of the talent that increases damage by 20% against targets below 35% health, I recommend you wait until your opponent goes under 35% before you pop Shadowdance.

Another useful trick is, when fighting multiple targets, ShadowDance and Cheap Shot them all, then run away. This is a waste of good DPS and combo points, imo, but it works.

The biggest use for Shadowdance is its burst, thogh. If your opponent isn't going to die after your Shadowdance is finished, chances are he'll be healed back to full. And that's something you don't want happening.

Setup really should not be used under any circumstance. Because a Sub rogue's main abilities are designed to keep them from being hit (Cheap Shot, KS, Gouge, and Waylay), you probably won't be attacked. Ruthlessness is a lot better, if you want to spend those points somewhere.

Enveloping Shadows is a lot of points for a little tiny gain. If you encounter Bladestorm just disarm.

Cheat death is useful when you are being healed. Otherwise, 3 seconds isn't much time to do anything.

[ultimar235]

Shadowdance is a great ability, but you should only use it once you are capped on energy. So, just wait 8 or so seconds for your energy to refill, then let it rip.

It's usually best when you need intense burst to take an opponent down. Because of the talent that increases damage by 20% against targets below 35% health, I recommend you wait until your opponent goes under 35% before you pop Shadowdance.

Another useful trick is, when fighting multiple targets, ShadowDance and Cheap Shot them all, then run away. This is a waste of good DPS and combo points, imo, but it works.

The biggest use for Shadowdance is its burst, thogh. If your opponent isn't going to die after your Shadowdance is finished, chances are he'll be healed back to full. And that's something you don't want happening.

Setup really should not be used under any circumstance. Because a Sub rogue's main abilities are designed to keep them from being hit (Cheap Shot, KS, Gouge, and Waylay), you probably won't be attacked. Ruthlessness is a lot better, if you want to spend those points somewhere.

Enveloping Shadows is a lot of points for a little tiny gain. If you encounter Bladestorm just disarm.

Cheat death is useful when you are being healed. Otherwise, 3 seconds isn't much time to do anything.

Thanks for the tips ;D