LK25hc a 'lackluster' design according to Stars.

[Offhand]

That's not correct. Altho I don't use to troll over top guilds websites, I stepped onto some comments by Muqq and he also tones down greatness and difficulty of LK25HM. Oh, wait, I guess Muqq is just poisoned by commies' propaganda like everyone else but Paragon.

Muqq didn't get a world first. He's butthurt and is only trying to downplay Paragon's greatness. :

[Holyhands]

It's more damage needed and more healing. There's nothing technically difficult about it, just bigger numbers required.

Uh no, even from just the 10 man it's not just bigger numbers. The fight in PHASE 3 is MUCH MUCH different. There are bombs that spawn that the WHOLE raid has to dodge. A slight movement error can cause a wipe. More than that, it's a much different fight then Normal but things still remain. Yogg 0 was not that much different besides phase 3 with all you had to do was place adds with a hunter kiting and get some locks and burn the boss.

And bigger numbers, what was Muru about? The insane DPS and Healing you needed from that fight, or else it sounds pretty lack luster too. Same with Twin Edners you needed big numbers for healing

[Xacez]

Everything is lackluster, it depends on what you compare it to.

[Holyhands]

That's not correct. Altho I don't use to troll over top guilds websites, I stepped onto some comments by Muqq and he also tones down greatness and difficulty of LK25HM. Oh, wait, I guess Muqq is just poisoned by commies' propaganda like everyone else but Paragon.

And where does he say this?

Given that though, HM LK is a long fight and can get pretty boring. It's no FF imo in terms of fun.

[sicness]

It's more damage needed and more healing. There's nothing technically difficult about it, just bigger numbers required.

Is this a joke? Did you not read anything in my original post?

Phase 1:
Shadow traps and bigger infest damage - negligible at best in terms of difficulty.

Phase 2:
More hp on valkyrs plus they don't die but continue to bombard the raid during the phase, increasing healing needed dramatically during infest. You can kill them but doing so makes the enrage timer more difficult to deal with so it's better to ignore them and have a tank aggro them.

Phase 3:
Due to the dps requirements to kill the LK before the enrage the vile spirits are completely ignored, and kited then blown up by a tank or paladin using bubble. It's an increased dps requirement as you say, but making the phase much more technically difficult. This part is comparable to yogg+0, if this is all that was different in phase 3 I'd agree with you, however...

Frostmourne room completely revamped, everyone's ported in and during the stun that they're ported in take damage to the point if they're not above 60% hp they'll die. In the room they take a ticking shadow damage aura that's 'more healing required' as you say yet needed aura mastery used on cool down to assist healers. Constant kiting to avoid the vile spirits that actually need to die in this situation as well as avoiding bombs that are left on the ground that can be difficult to see. Plus the practically instantaneous cast of defile upon leaving the room that requires decent coordination in order to avoid.

So yea... completely just increased numbers, so again tell me how this fight compares to yogg+0 and how there's nothing technically difficult about it.

[Memory]

And where does he say this?

http://www.ensidia.com/forum_topic.p...topic_id=29620 (bottom)

[Mowg]

You're replying to those 'dime a dozen' forumers, the one's who complain about how LK25HC isn't "much different or much more difficult" yet they've barely tackled normal mode Arthas, let alone tried his hard mode.

[Khanjin]

LK Heroic is hard because of the massive amount of health he has. Because it requires so high DPS you need to min/max your raid comp as much as possible (ie. atleast 5 palas & as much warlocks as possible) thus causing problems to some guilds because it isn't doable with a bad raid comps like rest of the WotLK hard modes are. My guild for example is unable to defeat HC Lich King because we only have 2 paladins in our guild and we are unable to make an optimal raid comp for it. Heroic Lich King is hard but it's also extremely stupid encounter because it's design is different to what we've used to in WotLK. Even most of the top guilds are struggling with recruiting good enough players that are playing the right class right now. If you read Paragon's tactic guide you can most likely see that the encounter isn't that complicated compared to normal mode. What makes it difficult is the amount of health and damage he has - nothing else.

So yes. The encounter is both hard and lackluster.

I must say that this is actually true. We're at Lich King HC as well, and we are lucky we have 4-6 paladins every night in our guild. And we still barely make it to phase 2. It is insanely tuned, that's all to it. People die because of insane damage. If the lich king doesn't go down to 70% fast, the tank is getting oneshot due to stacks. Blow everything to get as far as possible, that's what the encounter is about for a LOT of guilds atm. That's why they add the buff over time. To make it easier. For us, right now, it's just to learn some of the hard mode mechanics in the start and we don't use all our attempts at him, simply because there's no point. We can't make it right now. When we get 5% or 10% more, and geared up even further, we'll give it a shot for real

What I'm saying is that this is not fun. What would be better to do is lower the damage and hp a bit and add more new cool mechanics to make the raid screw up, maybe 2 defiles per time in p2 or something, to trap the raid and stuff, to make tactics work for you raid and stuff..

It's all about numbers atm. :-\

[sicness]

You're replying to those 'dime a dozen' forumers, the one's who complain about how LK25HC isn't "much different or much more difficult" yet they've barely tackled normal mode Arthas, let alone tried his hard mode.

I'm aware, I was just pointing out how blatantly obvious he's wrong because he obviously has no idea of the mechanics of the fight.

[ElAmigo]

I must say that this is actually true. We're at Lich King HC as well, and we are lucky we have 4-6 paladins every night in our guild. And we still barely make it to phase 2. It is insanely tuned, that's all to it. People die because of insane damage. If the lich king doesn't go down to 70% fast, the tank is getting oneshot due to stacks. Blow everything to get as far as possible, that's what the encounter is about for a LOT of guilds atm. That's why they add the buff over time. To make it easier. For us, right now, it's just to learn some of the hard mode mechanics in the start and we don't use all our attempts at him, simply because there's no point. We can't make it right now. When we get 5% or 10% more, and geared up even further, we'll give it a shot for real

What I'm saying is that this is not fun. What would be better to do is lower the damage and hp a bit and add more new cool mechanics to make the raid screw up, maybe 2 defiles per time in p2 or something, to trap the raid and stuff, to make tactics work for you raid and stuff..

It's all about numbers atm. :-\

Please tell me when a hardcore guild has whined at blizzard because an encounter wasnt fun? what they want is difficulty or in other words a good challenge.

Ensidia is downrating the fight because they didnt get the world first on it and it is as simple as that. Muqq's comment states that the firefighter fight was the hardest to date when they got it and with the gear they got it.....so in other words if they were fully decked out in hardmode gear like they were doing for 25 HCLK they would have had a much easier job with it.

Lich king fight from what i've seen and what i've read seems to be the hardest fight in the game with the tools given to do it. paragon pulled it off a couple of weeks before (which means less gear) any other guild and they did it with the 5% buff not the 10%. this fight is the most challenging and requires the most perfection out of any fight i've witnessed in this game and that is the end of that.

and to everyone complaining about the stacking of paladins correct me if im wrong but did swp require the stacking of shamans??? and everyone acclaims that swp was the greatest raid ever put into the game so why is it when a similar composition set up is required from hard mode lich king everyone bitches about it??

[sicness]

I must say that this is actually true. We're at Lich King HC as well, and we are lucky we have 4-6 paladins every night in our guild. And we still barely make it to phase 2. It is insanely tuned, that's all to it. People die because of insane damage. If the lich king doesn't go down to 70% fast, the tank is getting oneshot due to stacks. Blow everything to get as far as possible, that's what the encounter is about for a LOT of guilds atm. That's why they add the buff over time. To make it easier. For us, right now, it's just to learn some of the hard mode mechanics in the start and we don't use all our attempts at him, simply because there's no point. We can't make it right now. When we get 5% or 10% more, and geared up even further, we'll give it a shot for real

What I'm saying is that this is not fun. What would be better to do is lower the damage and hp a bit and add more new cool mechanics to make the raid screw up, maybe 2 defiles per time in p2 or something, to trap the raid and stuff, to make tactics work for you raid and stuff..

It's all about numbers atm. :-\

Read my above post, it's hardly a 'numbers increase' and solely that. There are mechanics designed to make you cause less dps on the boss as well as consider different strats to maximize dps time on him. I mean what you guys are saying is like saying yogg+0 is 'just a numbers increase', think about it when it has less new mechanics than LK does.

[Simbert]

Regarding the original topic, i do not believe one should really analyze that statement word for word, since it seems to be translated with a google translater and, at least to me, does not really make much sense at all. Maybe if someone with actual knowledge of the language could translate it so that one can really see what they said or not, you can talk about it.

The problem could also be my incomplete grasp of the english language, but i would not really try to look at that statement that has been translated through two languages to reach too critically. They could have also described how to make fish soup.

[Orumis]

WotLK is a bad expansion, sorry.

I'd rather play a game that's been properly developed instead of trying to go through whatever version of playtesting they've thrust upon us this tier.

Compared to Vanilla, this game is 100x more developed as we perceive it. I'm not even sure what you're referring to here. It was difficult to balance an entirely new class, with a new energy system, and an overall new experience. I actually give props to Blizzard for giving death knights a chance to have 3 different dps trees and 3 tank trees and balancing them relatively well.

I'd rather play a game with more difficult fights and less daily grind (such as TBC).

Did you just say WotLK needed daily grind? Unless you're referring to running raids multiple times for gear, and, MY GOD, the horrrrible one heroic per day, the overall "grind" would, in my opinion, be worse in BC. Going through outdated raids over and over and over again was such a grind.
If you want harder fights this tier, turn off your goddamn buff. Simple as that this tier. The difficult of fights is partly personal opinion and too affected by bias.

I'd rather have more then two fights per tier be tuned to actual difficulty (and t7 and t9 both lacked any difficult fights, period). You can chalk it up to "casuals" (whatever the hell that means, I raid 2 nights a week) if you want. There isn't much left in the endgame for people who want a challenge, that's a fault of Blizzard's design philosophy, and it isn't getting them any new players to start with.

You don't do hardmodes at all, do you? Either that, or you just decide to wait until you overgear an encounter until you try it. If you don't believe there are difficult fights this tier, you are sadly, sadly wrong.
This data came from WoWProgress, which analyzes ~51,000 guilds progressing through 10man and 25man ICC.
On 25 man, 6.5% of guilds have killed normal mode lich king. But, some guilds are strictly 10man. Ready for this?

We are 2 months into the full-fledged ICC, all bosses available. In the total amount of guilds that have successfully downed 25 man Marrowgar, 9.5% have also downed the lich king. Normal mode. 10% of the guilds have even entered heroic mode icecrown citadel. 2% of guilds who have downed 25 man normal Marrowgar have also downed 25 man heroic putricide, and around the same for Sindragosa. And, finally, with Premonition and Irae AoD achieving 25 man heroic lich king kills just this week, 0.2% of guilds who have downed Marrowgar 25 man normal have killed 25 man heroic lich king. THIS IS TWO MONTHS INTO THE DAMN RAID!!

That not enough of a "challenge" for you? Turn off the buff and do all this. Get back to me when 25 man heroic lich king is dead.

And, yes, it is getting them thousands and thousands of new raiders, because it is a lot easier to get into ICC from 80 than it was from 70 into Sunwell.

[LeperHerring]

Phase 1:
Shadow traps and bigger infest damage - negligible at best in terms of difficulty.

Like you said, trivial change.

Phase 2:
More hp on valkyrs plus they don't die but continue to bombard the raid during the phase, increasing healing needed dramatically during infest. You can kill them but doing so makes the enrage timer more difficult to deal with so it's better to ignore them and have a tank aggro them.

Valkyrs have 2x the hp, but you only dps them down to 50%; no change. You have OT keep the valkyrs on them between grabs; trivial change. Infest does a ton more damage; numbers increase.

Phase 3:
Due to the dps requirements to kill the LK before the enrage the vile spirits are completely ignored, and kited then blown up by a tank or paladin using bubble. It's an increased dps requirement as you say, but making the phase much more technically difficult. This part is comparable to yogg+0, if this is all that was different in phase 3 I'd agree with you, however...

Vile spirits were ignored and blown up by a tank by most guilds in easy mode too; no change.

Frostmourne room completely revamped, everyone's ported in and during the stun that they're ported in take damage to the point if they're not above 60% hp they'll die. In the room they take a ticking shadow damage aura that's 'more healing required' as you say yet needed aura mastery used on cool down to assist healers. Constant kiting to avoid the vile spirits that actually need to die in this situation as well as avoiding bombs that are left on the ground that can be difficult to see.

The only real change to the encounter, nothing really special though.

So as you can see, the difference is pretty much purely a numbers increase. Everything does a ton more damage and your raid has to do a ton more dps. It's the numbers increase that makes you wipe endlessly on this encounter, not the trivial changes to the mechanics.

[Gron]

Good to see detailed analysis of this.

Thanks.

[Deleted]

Like you said, trivial change.

Valkyrs have 2x the hp, but you only dps them down to 50%; no change. You have OT keep the valkyrs on them between grabs; trivial change. Infest does a ton more damage; numbers increase.

Vile spirits were ignored and blown up by a tank by most guilds in easy mode too; no change.

The only real change to the encounter, nothing really special though.

So as you can see, the difference is pretty much purely a numbers increase. Everything does a ton more damage and your raid has to do a ton more dps. It's the numbers increase that makes you wipe endlessly on this encounter, not the trivial changes to the mechanics.

this! and thats why its lackluster or what ever... it may be hardest fight but boring 15min...

[jtstormrage]

Yogg was a fun fight. Lich King was also very fun. They are similar in terms of difficulty and enjoyment.

[coolaide2]

so basically the fact that more of the guilds who have done Heroic lich king 25 man arent impressed with it means they're jelous. but if paragon say its the hardest encounter ever they cant just be making themself look better by having world first on what they claim is "the hardest" ever fight. Good logic from mmo-champion posters!
Most hard modes are just a few minor tactic changes and bigger numbers thats why hard modes is such a bad idea cause progress just feels like going in loops.

[PrettyBiased]

Things can be hard and lackluster, imagine walking to work instead of driving. Arriving at work would both be lackluster and hard. This pretty much sums up heroic raids

[macke]

99% of the player base will never see LKHC or even defeat him. Who the fuck cares about this ?

The top players of the world defeated him and know they are saying the fight is not so hard. So what ?
Think about your experience in WoW. There were or are bosses that are very hard.
And maybe aou think: Damm, we will never defeat this boss with this setup. Or with this equip ...

2 month later the same boss is lame. LKHC is maybe hard. I will never face him. For sure. But I know that this fight will become lame for all the guys who will defeat him know every week.

99% hu? So you think that 1% of all the community that plays wil never see LK HM? Thats great dude, have you even done any of the ICC25 HM's? Its only Sindragosa, Putricide that are really hard, rest are JKROFL.