Ni Karma.

[Manzothesaw]

I stumbled across this loot system today, and was wondering what everyone thought about it. Is it viable, fair and would it avoid loot-drama better than other systems? Is it a viable replacement for DKP?

* New raiders start with 0 karma.

* +5 karma for showing up for raid on-time.

* +5 karma per boss kill (+5 additional for progression boss kill)

* Standard /roll is used to determine the winner of an item. However, you may choose to add your karma bonus to this roll. Use all of your bonus, or use none--no partial amounts.

* 50% of the karma used for your roll is lost on all wins, and your karma is rounded down to nearest multiple of 5. There is no loss if you don't choose to use any karma.

* Sliding tier window. People can only roll if their karma bonus is within 50 points of the person who's using the highest bonus. (This cuts out the lowest 12.5% from "getting extremely lucky".) If the highest karma used is 50 or lower, anyone eligible may roll with or without karma.

* Ties are decided by a straight /roll with no bonuses.

* Anyone rolling with karma bonus who is uncontested (i.e., only one person wants an item) may get the item as if declared "no bonus".

* Losses for wins are immediate. Karma is added at the end of the night.

* If you are told not to compete for an item by an officer, you may not roll. (This may be invoked in cases of multiple defaulted/free items being won by one person who then tries to roll on other things, or other situations that seem highly "unfair". Members are expected to not be greedy, but they are also expected to not collude, and to use their karma for items they actually want.)

* Possible bonuses given by raid leader to the entire raid, if a raid spends significant time to progress/learn how to defeat a new boss. Karma may also be individually granted to those filling in empty slots to help the raid.

[tanked]

wwaayyyy to complicated imo.

[Banzubie]

I still think epgp is the best.

[Scorp]

Never a fan of the Ni Karma system. I prefer a modified DKP/Suicide Kings for loot. Just my opinion thugh.

Tried EPGP, it's really not that much different from DKP.

From what I understand (what happens on my server) most guilds run DKP or SK.

[cubby]

I stumbled across this loot system today, and was wondering what everyone thought about it. Is it viable, fair and would it avoid loot-drama better than other systems? Is it a viable replacement for DKP?

I was in a guild that used this system - worked pretty well (insofar as any loot/point system works well). As a new but competent member I was able to jump right in (fairly quickly) and roll on gear. There were the usual hoarding problems inherent in any loot point system though. It's a substitute, but not a fix.

[CaptainCrook]

wwaayyyy to complicated imo.

Agreed, I've always thought that the best system is a mix between Loot Council and Rolling, but then again, that only works with well-knit guilds. I also have always like DKP, regardless of what anyone says about it.

[Deleted]

I can think up an easier system on the spot tbh.

5 points karma for every raid attendance, 5 points for kills, 10 points for progression kills
when needing on an item, divide itemlevel of item currently equipped in that slot by karma
lowest number wins

Every item won is = -10 karma

[Deleted]

I can think up an easier system on the spot tbh.

5 points karma for every raid attendance, 5 points for kills, 10 points for progression kills
when needing on an item, divide itemlevel of item currently equipped in that slot by karma
lowest number wins

Every item won is = -10 karma

This just fails. Why punish those who work on their gear outside raids (say 10m) or just are more active? There's no possible reason to reward someone for having a lower ilevel item equipped.

The karma system from OPs post seems pretty fair and interesting though.

[Lancer]

wwaayyyy to complicated imo.

[Hammatimme]

I still think epgp is the best.

i would rather stab my eardrums with the sharpened heartstring of a 3 month dead harpy than be in another epgp guild. dkp all the way

[Hammatimme]

I can think up an easier system on the spot tbh.

5 points karma for every raid attendance, 5 points for kills, 10 points for progression kills
when needing on an item, divide itemlevel of item currently equipped in that slot by karma
lowest number wins

Every item won is = -10 karma

so the lowest geared and therefore USUALLY least attendant person in the raid gets whatever he wants?

[Simbert]

The main problem with the originally posted system is that it gives much more karma for farm bosses when compared to actual progress content. If, for example, you are in a guild that kills 11 bosses really fast, but tends to wipe for a whole evening on LK, there are some people who tend not to be there for the progress night, and they would also get as much point to use for gear as the others.

Obviously, there are other ways to deal with this, but in my opinion, a good loot system serves to purposes: Reducing drama to an absolute minimum, and giving people an incentive to not only farm the loot, but to try to progress. Giving out as much points for 2 farm bosses as for one boss where you might wipe for many hours before you kill it is making it much less attractive to be there on progress nights, since there already drops not much loot. And however much one might argue this, loot is an important part of the game.

Otherwise, it is not really complex, and it is also not really different from a dkp system, it just adds a little random element on top of it. This random element will also probably lead to quite some drama. I hate lootdrama, but i have yet to see any system that can stop it.

[Cactrot]

Would take too much time, too easy to get confusion with "no I said bonus!" or whatever. I'd rather use DKP, gDKP, or /rolls. Only loot council and SK would be worse.

[Deleted]

This just fails. Why punish those who work on their gear outside raids (say 10m) or just are more active? There's no possible reason to reward someone for having a lower ilevel item equipped.

The karma system from OPs post seems pretty fair and interesting though.

If you're thinking outside an "OMG LETS GEAR 3 PPL SUPER HAI" philosophy, there is in fact a reason. If you're active, then you get a higher chance on rolls. If you already got your super phat epix 264 in one slot, and roll vs someone who is wearing, say, iLevel 245, then the lower geared player gets upgraded. There is no "derp I have to be in the guild without loot for 3 months durr durr", and it upgrades players equally rather than force feeding gear to the top 4 most active people.

[Deleted]

so the lowest geared and therefore USUALLY least attendant person in the raid gets whatever he wants?

No, the person who needs the piece of gear the most has a greater chance of winning it, which is increased by attendance.

Let's say that [super epic helm of iLevel 264z] drops.

Player 1 is wearing a 226 piece, and has 50 karma

Player 2 is wearing a 258 piece, and has 75 karma

player 1's value = 4.52
player 2's value = 3.44

Player 2 wins. It's not rocket science.

[Direshadow]

My guild uses DKP, but we don't allow bidding wars. Priority goes to main spec first.

We hand out DKP in heafty chunks, being on time, motivation, etc...

We also taketh away DKP in heafy chunks.

At the end of each month, we reduce DKP of all active raiders by 25%.

Works perfectly. Never had a problem.

[jai151]

DKP is a horrible system. Loot Council if the council is fair is the best system, but given human nature, Suicide Kings backed by a Loot Council is the best current system.

[critterkiller]

"My loot system"

Say you clear ICC and you clear all you get 12 points (1 point per boss).
Need an item: If you win the item you lose 5 points, if you roll on it you lose 2 points.
Also you can not have more than X (that the guild/pug or what ever, desides) numbers of items from one raid. But you still have the points earned form earlier raids.

[Vuelhering]

Ni Karma is not very complex.

• You gain Karma, as points, for raiding/killing bosses/on time/etc
• If you want, you may add either all or none of your karma to your /roll on items
• If you win, you lose half the amount you added. (You can still win without using or losing any karma)

Hoarding isn't an issue because the more you hoard, the more you lose when you win an item. So, you get the win the BiS item you've been wanting, meanwhile the other people win 3 each and you spend a crapton.

All the details posted in the OP are implementation issues which make it sound more complicated. Included in implementation are mandatory adjustments which prevent farm nights from being too lucrative. I've added a 10 karma min cost, just to prevent people from "fishing" when nobody wants to pay half their karma. This helps prevent people from not rolling because of high cost, and excessive rolling for no cost.

Basically, if you want an item, you roll with your karma bonus. If you only "kinda want" the item, you roll without using a karma bonus. It's kind of like suicide kings, except in SK you lose ALL your accumulated points when you suicide, but with NKS you lose half. Both are zero-sum systems.